Otocinclus Breeding

[Kaczman]

Welcome to everyone!

James you are amazing - it's not only what you've achieved breeding Otocinclusses, but also sharing that with us - thank you, thank you, thank you! I follow each and every your posts - sometimes making notes ;)

I'm keeping 12 Otoses myself but without any success yet. Friend of mine proudly keeps pair that spawn virtually every week - but most of fry dies after 2-3 weeks. What you recon could be the key factor for their survivor at that stage - what kind of food should be introduced?

Kind Regards
Kyle

[James0816]

Babes continue to do well and growing up nicely. Count is nearing (20) as the activity increasing. They are zipping all over the tank. Prepping new zucchini to put in for them. This group is more visible than those of past. They don't run in an out of the Subwassertang as much. I'll refresh the CO2 as well and do a water change tomorrow.

Here's a couple of shots from today:


I like this one. Shows a good shot of the belly developing and ... well ... the path of poo. ;o)

[James0816]

Friend of mine proudly keeps pair that spawn virtually every week - but most of fry dies after 2-3 weeks. What you recon could be the key factor for their survivor at that stage - what kind of food should be introduced?

That's a good age as to when they should be turning the corner. Any idea if the fry are swimming around with poo strings? That's a good sign they are eating well at this age. Their food should be very fine. I make a fine powder and mix it with tank water. Then pour out small amounts over the areas where I see the fry hanging out.

[Vlacek]

Hi James, Kaczman,

I'd like to summarize what I THINK worked in my case and what didn't work.

a)none of the fry I left in community tank survived although I don't think it was eaten by anything.
Reason - probably lack of food as there is hardly any suitable algae in the tank and fry could only live for few weeks, then disappeared. Feeding is IMHO difficult because I've never seen the fry going to bottom where it could find something like zuccini or spirulina tabs I was feeding with. I have a sandy bottom and couple of stones and some bog wood. The fry always stuck to tank walls and plants. I must admit I've never tried to somehow stick zuccini slice to the glass. Also tank mates migh have had adverse effect on the fry - cories, shrimps, danio margaritatus,anethome helena.

b)none of the fry I've moved from community tank to breeding 10liters tank has survived more than few weeks either. Despite the fact that there were their mates of about the same age who were doing fine. Reason - unknown. Water parameters were about the same, the same tapped water as a source, maybe just a slight difference in pH due to plants, roots etc in main tank.

c)all wigglers who were born in breeding tank survived! I moved like six eggs from main tank to breeding. These were from different batches and at different time so I don't think it was just a coincidence. What was a coincidence though was a fact that breeding tank was full of brown algae which developed there during two month period when I had small pandas in there. I found this brown algae very tasty for little otos. More than an inch long poo strings were hanging at otos almost all the time I wasn't feeding them at all for the first month and still fry from the first batch grew much faster than those born later when there was no more brown algae and incomparably faster than those who lived in main tank for few weeks. Unfortunately it's difficult to maintain a good condition s for this algae and it turned into green hairy one and then into green spots which were of no use for otos. Because I had half bare bottom in the breeding tank, I could see otos on the bottom from time to time which made it easier to feed them once I started with tablets or zuccini.

My mama oto has stopped spawning so I can't do more testing. And yes it takes time for them to start spawning. My female was plumpy several month before she started laying eggs. Water parameters in my case were like pH=7.2-7.5; temp 23-24C (22C in main tank); KH=6; GH=6. Now I have like 27-28C in tanks which might be a reason why there are no more spawning attempts in the tank.

James,

what do you have as a bottom? Some pebbles or sand?

[James0816]

what do you have as a bottom? Some pebbles or sand?

My breeder tanks are either SMS (Soil Master Select) or sand bottomed.

If they are in a community tank, chances are slim of having good success for several reasons such as lack of food and of course being food themselves being the main ones. I breed them in species only tanks and tank mates include dwarf shrimp and briggs snails.

Very true on the feeding early on. By the time they hit the one week mark, they will start rasping on blanched zucchini. It will need to be very soft. When I put in a slice, I don't remove it unless it tears apart and floats to the top. It can get messy, but the fry will be all over it when it is like this. You will have to be carefull when removing these remnants. The shrimp and snails also help to keep things tidied up. Have a fresh slice or slices ready to go in when you remove the old.

As mentioned, a very fine powder will yield the best results for survival. I use a mix of Ken's Veggie Flakes and Sticks (and occassionally seaweed). Grind that into a very fine powder. I use a test tube from the API testing kits. Fill about 1/4inch with powder then tank water to the 5ml mark. Shake very, very well. This then will get poured (or use a dropper for target feeding) over plants, decor or even up against the walls. A little bit goes a long way so don't over do it.

Based on my studies, I would keep the tank between 24-25c (74-78f). Definately no higher. My most successfull spawns have been at 77f. I occassionally get them at the lower range but not as often.

Ah...and one more big thing...use a pre-filter. They will get sucked into the filter. I still routinely rescue them as they somehow manage to snake through it at times.

[Kaczman]

Thank you James, thank you Vlacek!

I'm thinking about setting up a little diatoms farm. I know diatoms require Silica for growth. I also know that James uses filtering sand to promote diatoms growth. Great idea! I'm thinking about seeting up designated tank rich of silica and fertilized regularly.

I would like to use several tank dividing screens through which current could deliver nutritions. Then when algae grown - screen would be replaced by clean one. I had such a screen which I used as prefilter - fry protection. It overgrown with diatoms - then it provided great feast to my Otoses - so my idea is to grow algae continuously. Any idea what is more important - O2 or CO2 to promote it's growth? I would like to give it a try, cost - effectiveness might be daubtfull, but results - interesting.

James - you keep recommending Ken's fish food. After reeding through his offer - I understand why... That guy must be real fish maniac - choice of food he sell is great. It's just wee bit expensive ordering it from US to Europe. But I would definitely go for it at some stage - when my Oto start to breed.

I keep my Otos's in the tank with Corydoras Habrosus. A lot of plants and hiding places. Corys are very peacfull and clean the bottom of the tank simply by sweeping up all waste from the gravel 0 current and gravel do the rest. I grow Bacopa, Crypto, Hygrophilia mainly - they don't require CO2 and much fertilizing - grow slowly, but healthy. I think keeping the tank - low maintenance might be a factor, because every cleaning is a stress causing factor. I'm thinking also about slowing down water changes - slower emptying and refilling the tank. Obviously I'm taking all the factors James's mentioned into consideration as well.

Thanks again boys and good luck!

[James0816]

Sad news...I watched a little one pass away. ( Poor thing. I tried to catch it to see if I can possibly isolate but it disappeared. I'm sure it's gone by now. All others that I can see are doing well, very active and grazing on things. Some of them look like they are really going on a growth spurt. There are all different sizes in here.

Did a water test today after yesterday's water change. Here are the results:

pH: 7.4
gh: 6
kh: 5
no3: 10 (no fert dosing until wee ones hit three weeks)
tds: 144
temp: 76

Room parms: temp: 68 / humidity: 44% / barometric: 25.75

Plants already need a good trimming since the rescape. They grew really fast. I'm going to transfer a couple Downoi crowns over to the Cocama tank.

[James0816]

Thanks again boys and good luck!

You certainly are most welcome and good luck to you as well. Any other questions, feel free to ask any time.

J.

[James0816]

Finally working on this tank again after returning from holiday. Ok....removed all the plants from the tank. Placed back (5) C. wendtii's. I'm pretty much using the same format as the original layout. I have (3) Wendtii's in front of the driftwood and (2) behind.

I'm going to transfer over (2) Downoi crowns from the Vittatus tank. I'll work in the same stems that were in there previously.

Also planned will be another ledge. With this one, I would like to use Fissidens, but that is going to be a tall order. I may just make two ledges and reserve one for Fissidens when I can acquire enough of it. The other I will use Subwassertang again. On top of the ledge, I plan on using Lobellia. Just have to make sure it grows properly and not leggy. But I don't think that is going to be an issue.

The canister filter has been officially removed and filtration is strictly HOB now. Current looks to be doing as planned.

Once the scape is complete, I'll get my baseline water parms and we'll go from there.

[James0816]

Vittatus fry continue to develop and are doing very well. Some are getting really dark as well. Piglets I must say.

Now...on to the interesting. The Macros are finally in spawn mode. However, unless the boys get thier act together, this is going to be a dead spawn and the lady will loose her eggs. Here's why. There are three boys in here. As of right now...I'm calling them the three stooges. The gal is trying her darnedest to get the boys to .. well .. you know. She leads them to a spot and then they swim away in their little pack crazily. Quite funny actually. Then she will track them down again and it repeats. She's so big, she's about ready to explode. I'm sure if she was able she would smack each of them upside the head.

I think I may be partly to blame as well. I'm in the middle of a big water change and maintenance in the tank. The only thing she has to work with are C. pontederiifolia. I pulled all the stems to rescape. DOH! She is trying to work the Ponts though which is good.

Now if the guys will just get thier act together.

[Vlacek]

Hi,

just a brief update my end. This morning my vittatus pair showed intensive spawning activity. The conditions were similar to the attempts made a long time ago but the temperature is now 26+C. Barometric air pressure drop and rain for all day for the weather part if this may have any influence.
I've also seen one egg but it was gone in 20minutes, Carinotetraodon travancoricus looked suspiciously happy and was giving very close look to all valisneria leaves Not a good combination of fish species if you want to have some breeding results I'd say...

[James0816]

Babes continue to grow nicely. Have colored up extremely well. I'm comparing this to last groups where they weren't as dark at this age. As mentioned before to, the sizes of some of them makes me think that someone smuggled in some steroids or something. I may have to look at random testing. Tried to snap some pics but that group didn't turn out well. They are on tap for a water change today and their first exposure to CO2 and ferts.

[James0816]

This morning my vittatus pair showed intensive spawning activity. The conditions were similar to the attempts made a long time ago but the temperature is now 26+C. Barometric air pressure drop and rain for all day for the weather part if this may have any influence.
I've also seen one egg but it was gone in 20minutes, Carinotetraodon travancoricus looked suspiciously happy and was giving very close look to all valisneria leaves.

Good deal. The rainy season may have a play in it but inconclusive on my end.

As for Mr. Travancoricus...is that a knife and fork I hear rubbing against each other.

[Vlacek]

What you hear is probably just four teeth creaking against each other longing for more eggs supply...

[James0816]

Little piggies what can I say. Zucchini slices aren't lasting very long at the moment with the fry guys. Excellent sign. On top of that, during this morning's check, I walked in on spawning activity. Was quite comical once I found Papa and Mama2 Oto. She was under a crypt leaf and Pops was on top. They both were looking at me as if to say "What? We're not doing anything".

I was going to be doing a small water change in the tank today with the plant prunning the other day. However, after that discovery, I will have to wait and see what happens with the spawn first.

I also need to pull (2) ninja's and put them in isolation. Hopefully be able to do that today.

[James0816]

Spawn is confirmed. I was curious so I did a check look in. I saw two eggs sitting in the Ludwigia area. A quick glance in the crypts where I saw mom and pop earlier yielded about 10 more. I'm sure that come tomorrow there will be a lot more.

I have started the process of moving the Macrophilus to another tank. The new one is more set up for breeding with one exception..pH. It's 7.6 in this tank. Substrate is Eco for Planted Aquariums. It's very odd in that I am using straight tap water for this tank as it was advised not use buffers like crushed coral which I do in the other tanks. Interesting indeed. I went ahead with the move despite that number as it will provide the female more opportunities to lay her eggs. The other tank wasn't very suited for that. Maybe now the three musketeer's will get their act together. ;o)

[apistomaster]

The manufacturer of all the stick foods like veggie, earth worm, Spirulina and on and on is http://bestflake.com/
Only two commercial distributors retail their foods in North America and one in the UK.
Bestflakes has a minimum order of 25 pounds of food and at prices that do not cut into the profit margins of their distributors. I have been using the Spirulina Sticks and earth worm sticks since I decided to get involved with breeding Loricaridae.
I had about 20 Parotocinclus cf. eppelyi for two years and desparately hoped to breed them but one morning they all were dead; they depended on the strong circulation from a MaxiJet 600 power head driven sponge filter. It took them less than three days to polish every bit of algae from every surface, glass and Java moss carpet. They only survived two years because they ate Spirulina Sticks. I have no reason to suspect that I would not still have them were it not for the equipment failure. Only www.kensfish.com and www.aquaticeco.com distributes these two types plus Brine shrimp sticks in the USA and one company in the UK.
Members of fish clubs or other groups could pool enough orders to make it worth buying from at least the distributors.
I would never have been as successful at breeding my catfish without access to these foods.
A bonus for me is that my wild S. discus(Heckel) and S. haraldi like the sticks. Heckel Discus especially like Spirulina Sticks which is consistent with stomach content analysis of wild specimens in the field. About 50% of wild Discus guts contain bottom detritus. Heckels eat far more vegetable matter than the other two Discus species but earth worm sticks are eaten well by them all. The earth worm sticks are the staple diet of my wild Discus and everything else fed to them is supplemental. I used to make my own Discus beef heart blend beginning in 1967. I replaced beef heart blend with earth worm sticks since early 2006 as my primary Discus food.

It comes as no surprise to me that Otocinclus fry thrive on veggie sticks. They are no different from the Spirulina Sticks. These foods behave differently from the common algae or carnivore wafers. The wafers are too hard. The sticks may be gulped by larger fish but within minutes they become soft mush which all the Loricaridae fry easily vacuum up and the food remains edible for hours. This allows the food to last just long enough until it is time for the next feeding. This is essential to the algae grazing fry. It is also useful for the fry of more carnivorous Loricaridae fry.

I have been trying to introduce these foods to fellow fish hobbyist breeders since joining this forum. Before I joined, I do not think there are any earlier references to the utility of earth worm sticks. I first felt they had great potential since these are expensive conditioning foods used in the commercial aquaculture of Channel Catfish and the list grew a great deal since then. To the aquaculture industry these are very expensive foods they need but for tropical fish hobbyists these foods are cheap. We use much smaller quantities yet can benefit from their use a great deal.

[James0816]

I only use feed from Kens Fish. Except of course for the fresh zucchini's. Highly recommend it.

[James0816]

Well, well, well...we have a shame on me moment here. That spawn I was referring to...actually started two days ago. The eggs I found yesterday ... hatched today! So that tells me they had a dry run the other day and what I stepped in on may have been the beginings of the big one. No additional eggs today though so I think I disturbed them too much. Drat! Anyway, (6) wigglers found today.

Now for the problem. I am also seeing and increased amount of Hydra in this tank. A few I can deal with. There seems to be a lot in here now. They are probably getting fat and happy on the fry food. Maybe zoea from for the Ninja shrimp too. Need to find a good way of controlling these guys under these circumstances. Gonna be rough.

I'm going to do another water change in the tank this evening. Maybe scrape a few leaves to see if I can remove some of these buggers. Water change will have to be very slow dripping back in the with the fry guys.

[apistomaster]

About 200 milligrams or ~1/4 teaspoon of 10% flubendazole powder per 10 gallons will kill all Hydra within a week.
Sometimes it takes two treatments over two weeks. Depends on how much you use.
You should first take the dose of the powder, water and shake it well in a small sealed pill bottle, then pour into the tank.
It is harmless to the most delicate shrimps, fish fry and snails at these low doses. I promise.
The Hydra will all be dead in a week. It is best to treat all your tanks to avoid their reintroduction. Nets, hands plants; any shared wet equipment can spread them. They are often present in minute numbers but can undergo a population explosion when you feed a tank a lot of newly hatched brine shrimp for awhile.
I have a Killiefish breeder friend who sells it.
CHARLES HARRISON
charles@inkmkr.com
Work: (636) 677-1900
HTTP://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/

Flubendazole, 10% powder .... 25 grams: $20.00

E-mail for pricing, Priority Mail Postage,
combine orders for economy.
25 grams is enough to treat Hydra in about 1,500 ten gallon tanks once.
The left over is very useful for those who buy wild Plecos, Corydoras, Apistogramma, Discus and Angelfish but the dose should be about 1/2 tsp per ten gallons. It is safe to use more on fish but Hydra are very sensitive to it.

[James0816]

The only problem about that much would be physically measuring it out for 10g tanks. I'm so hesitant as I don't want to OD the tank and wind up killing my breeders. Yikes!

Another thing....do you know if it works on Planaria as well? I have another tank (no Oto fry in that one) that has an abundance of Planaria I would like to get rid off. Variety of snails are in there as well.

[MatsP]

If you have fish in, and no invertebrates in the tank, overdosing shouldn't be a problem. With inverts in the tank, you need to be more careful, as they may be affected. For fish, an overdose of 10-20x is not harmful - it doesn't "help" to overdose, but it's not doing any harm either.

--
Mats

[apistomaster]

Using basically a small pinch of the powder per 10 gal of water will only deal with the Hydra. No other pests or valuable fish or their fry will be harmed.

[James0816]

There are shrimp in there too unfortunately. I have Caridina serratirostris in with the Oto's.

Do you know if this works on detritus and Planaria worms as well?

It will have to be invert safe since I have the snails and shrimp in the other tanks.

[James0816]

No other pests or valuable fish or their fry will be harmed.

Oops.. I read this as "pets" instead of "pests". So this product would not work on Planaria and/or Detritus worms then.

Hydra is the main concern since they are in a breeding tank. The worms are in other tanks which would be a plus if the product will take them out as well. Two birds with one stone so to speak.

[apistomaster]

The other pests would take a high dose and even that might be enough.
Hydra are uniquely vulnerable to a very small dose of flubendazole.

[James0816]

Found (11) wigglers today. Awesome deal! Will start feeding tomorrow. Unfortunately, the Hydra are gonna like that too. I'm going to start with some squishing and rubbing of plants to see if I can remove most of them that way.

As for the Macro's, well...she's trying again in the new tank. The boys as usual are being immature. I don't know what this poor gal has to do to get them to work with her. Anyone have any studs to loan out? lol

I'm sure things will be ok the more they get used to their new home.

[apistomaster]

I would not try to remove or damage the Hydra. Use only flubendzole. It is the only safe and completely effective way of dealing with them. Lord knows, a lot of wacky methods were tried but none ever worked until flubendazole became available.

You can blend Hydra into little bits and each bit grow into complete polyps; how do you think they got their name?
Are you familiar with the monster of Greek myth?
Cut off one head and two grew in it's place.

[James0816]

Yikes! Once the med takes them out, do they eventually fall off their perch? I'm gonna let the wigglers get a bit older before using but feel there is a bigger spawn lurking around the corner.

[apistomaster]

Yes they do but at first they shrivel where they are, then drop off and disappear. Maybe snails and natural decay gets them. Not enough dead matter to pollute your tanks. They are virtually all water.