PlanetCatfish.com

I no longer have those but have some other pictures where you can see my hands holding them. No they were not easy to make litterally between 10 and 40 house.

Although I can now make them much more efficiently by using the rotten granite splitting it, cutting groves on the interior faces and then using superglue to reassemble the peices.

Here is one the opening was about 2 inches and the depth about 6.5 inches. This worked well for Ancistrus SP.
Hopefully I will have time to break down my tropheus 120 this evening and stip them. If I do I will pull out some of the marble caves I have in there and take some photos.

Oh, lately instead of making caves, I have made a habit of shopping the nic nac shelves at goodwill, Saint Vincint Depaul and other thrirt stores.

ceramic pottery in all shapes and sizes can be had cheap and will often work for structure in the fish room.

Oh on on the resin caves, I have used these for 4 plus years, in the beginning, I would only use them with the Ancistrus Sp. I have since used them with the L104, l144 with no problems, I plan to use them with the l46s, l181s, and l271 groups I am picking up shortly.

I really like the look of those granite caves. Very nice.

Yeah, but not something that I would consider a commerical deal. If you value you time as low as $5.00 per hour at a minimum you would have to be charging $50.00 for labor, not to include raw materials, (admittedly cheap) and wear and tear on your tools, which can be quite expensive, but having had to give up drinking, I had time on my hands and I enjoy artistic pursuits... Several members in our club have them. I have gifted folks with them. Would you consider a trade for the l271's?

Thanks for the info. I understand the thrift store shopping approach, although it is not my first preference.... I was just about to write that I've stopped doing the thrift store thing only because I wanted to get caves that looked more natural (rather than buying, for example, a Mickey Mouse-shaped vase at the thrift store); but in fairness, there's also nothing very "natural"-looking about the caves I made this week ( ). I do tend to think that real bamboo caves look "more" natural than random vases, etc., since bamboo itself is natural. And there is a certain earthen appearance to natural clay, as opposed to glass or lacquered or glazed ceramic objects. But on a budget, anything of the right size and shape works better than nothing at all!

Cheers, Eric

Would you consider a trade for the l271's?

I like them. But not that much. I already have just about all the caves I will ever need and I paid a pretty penny for the L271 so I would need to make at least a chunk of it back on the sale.

Andy

No sweet Andy, I put that out there to make the point that while I enjoy the creative side of it working with stone, is not a way to make money for the fish room.

Two more structures, one a duplex which I tried to shape like a stone with irregular sides, and the other a typical burrito, but with a pinched triangle opening: Both have internal caves which measure 8 inches deep. The interior of the stone's caves are very large but the openings are purposefully narrowed. Hopefully, this will allow any larger plecos I might buy (or my mustard spot plecos when they are full grown) to squeeze in the front and still block it, but leave lots of wiggle room inside for a plump female to lay her eggs.

I used both terra cotta and white natural clay. I prepared them by taking lumps of each color and passing it over a cheese grater, to create shreds of brown and white clay. These were gently blended to preserve some color distinction, then compressed and rolled out as usual to form the caves. The stone-shaped cave was sprinkled with both normal table salt and kosher salt (a more coarse grain) to give external texture. The burrito is smooth.

In general, I like the way these caves look, but I am still nervous about the kiln firing - I don't want to use the kiln until I have plenty of caves to fire all at once, but since this is the first time I've ever done this, I may find out that my techniques are not good enough for kiln firing and I may have regrets with a bunch of broken or cracked caves when I'm done. I've used only about half of my clay so far, so I think this is actually a good place to stop and schedule a firing; then I can take what I learn from that to use the rest of the clay.

Cave #5, the burrito with a pinched triangular opening: 8-9" long.

Great thread
The only caves I have made myself have been wooden, and my L397s love them
I started with a chunk of fallen and dried-out oak branch, and drilled/bored holes about 25mm-40mm diameter and about 100mm deep. I only ever see their tails now...

I often read that caves should be about twice the length of the fish, so that a male can fit inside and also trap a female (This explains why I am making my caves so long). This certainly describes my clown plecos - they bury themselves so deep in their caves that I can almost NOT see them when they are way in the back. But I have also seen my male ABN quite happy to trap a female in a cave that is only barely longer than she is - once she is inside, the male can just get his head and pectoral fins in the entrance of the cave to block/trap her in, and the rest of his body, from the middle of the pectorals back, sits outside the cave.

Mol_PMB wrote:The only caves I have made myself have been wooden, and my L397s love them
I started with a chunk of fallen and dried-out oak branch, and drilled/bored holes about 25mm-40mm diameter and about 100mm deep. I only ever see their tails now...

How long are your s? Their CLOG page gives no max body length, but since yours have spawned, obviously the caves you've made are more than desirable to your fish. If your caves are about 100mm deep, how long are the fish?

Cheers, Eric

So here are some more pics, The caves in a tank
and then laid out on the floor with a 5 gallon bucket for scale. In that picture I included the resin caves I still have in the fish room as well.

I can imagine my fish hiding in the black donut-shaped cave. I like the Easter Island head. Are the statues just decor, or are there caves hidden inside? Cool.

bekateen wrote:Two more structures, one a duplex which I tried to shape like a stone with irregular sides, and the other a typical burrito, but with a pinched triangle opening: Both have internal caves which measure 8 inches deep. The interior of the stone's caves are very large but the openings are purposefully narrowed. Hopefully, this will allow any larger plecos I might buy (or my mustard spot plecos when they are full grown) to squeeze in the front and still block it, but leave lots of wiggle room inside for a plump female to lay her eggs.

I used both terra cotta and white natural clay. I prepared them by taking lumps of each color and passing it over a cheese grater, to create shreds of brown and white clay. These were gently blended to preserve some color distinction, then compressed and rolled out as usual to form the caves. The stone-shaped cave was sprinkled with both normal table salt and kosher salt (a more coarse grain) to give external texture. The burrito is smooth.

In general, I like the way these caves look, but I am still nervous about the kiln firing - I don't want to use the kiln until I have plenty of caves to fire all at once, but since this is the first time I've ever done this, I may find out that my techniques are not good enough for kiln firing and I may have regrets with a bunch of broken or cracked caves when I'm done. I've used only about half of my clay so far, so I think this is actually a good place to stop and schedule a firing; then I can take what I learn from that to use the rest of the clay.

Eric, I really like those two. I would love to see those fired with a wood firing process so the end finish would look something like these.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/imag ... rN46fSHhMw

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/imag ... gdom62clHQ

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/imag ... l-pXzypIBi

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/imag ... 0pPYj--_oC

Between the texture from the work you did, the texture from the glaze, and the stonelike nature of the finish, I think you would be really pleased, I am pretty sure you can find wood fired kilns with in an hour of were you are at. The artist I got my first wood fired piece from moved to the west coast because the wood firing process is so popular out there.

Thanks for the pictures. Yes, I agree that the look of a wood kiln should enhance the appearance of the caves, in particular I would describe it as a more weathered look, giving the caves a less manicured appearance. There probably are wood fired kilns near me, so I'll keep asking around. I contacted my local pottery club, and from that group I've gotten responses from two people with kilns, but those are both gas or electric.

Since I have some concern about how well my caves will survive the firing process, I think I'll simply run this first group of caves through any kiln I can get. Then once I know my caves are okay, I'll pursue the wood kilns.

Thanks again. Cheers,
Eric

The easter island heads are more decor then caves but there is a hollow down the back that is 1/2 an inch wide by 6 inches long by 2.5 inches deep. I thought it would be possible to make the slot wider, but with the quality of the marble I was working with, as I get any nearer the outside edge I risk blowing out the side, and that size slot place when the heads are placed properly in a circle with hornwort in the middle, the grouping of heads makes a great hiding place for any tropheus fry I might miss. Keep me posted on your progress with the caves.

I got to say this thread has motivated me to get some fresh stone to play with.

Hi all,

Mol_PMB wrote:The only caves I have made myself have been wooden, and my L397s love them
I started with a chunk of fallen and dried-out oak branch, and drilled/bored holes about 25mm-40mm diameter and about 100mm deep. I only ever see their tails now...

Happy fish.

I think a few people have had success with Oak breeding caves and spp. Personally I think a wooden cave that the males can extend themselves is the likeliest route to successful breeding.

These are Irene's <http://www.planetcatfish.com/cotm/cotm. ... le_id=179>, she still keeps Loricariids, but I think she might have sold her L169.

There was a guy in Gloucester (UK) making the Oak caves, but I'm not sure he still is. If you can find dead Robinia (R. pseudoacacia), the branches are naturally hollow, and I think the same applies to Walnut (Juglans spp.) and Hickory (Carya spp.), although I haven't seen branches from them.

Bristol plec breeder "theGeeman" had breed in a floating Robinia branch (the bark is very persistent and buoyant) in a tank with only vertical water flow (via air filter).

cheers Darrel

dw1305 wrote:Hi all,

Mol_PMB wrote:The only caves I have made myself have been wooden, and my L397s love them ...There was a guy in Gloucester (UK) making the Oak caves, but I'm not sure he still is. If you can find dead Robinia (R. pseudoacacia), the branches are naturally hollow, and I think the same applies to Walnut (Juglans spp.) and Hickory (Carya spp.), although I haven't seen branches from them. ...

cheers Darrel

I would avoid the walnuts as they have toxins in the wood. Black walnut in particular.

Hi all,

Marine590622 wrote:I would avoid the walnuts as they have toxins in the wood. Black walnut in particular.

Probably a good idea.

cheers Darrel

From another thread, Re: Frozen vegetables for clown plecos:

TwoTankAmin wrote:I cannot say it applies to clowns, but my first bristlenose spawned in white PVC caves. This lasted until they got too big to fit in a 1 inch diameter cave. I discovered this when I found the egg mass out of the cave against the front glass in the middle of the tank. By then I had discovered the "wonders" of buying caves online and branched out into clay and slate.

If one wishes to make their own slate caves I would suggest using tank safe epoxy and not silicone to glue them together. Over time (a couple of years) silicone will start to let go when used on rock, slate, terra cotta etc.

Still waiting to hear back from the person with the kiln. In the meantime, I was getting eagerly impatient to try other ideas, and I came up with this structure, intended for my (or similar fish - small, short, and chubby). The overall structure is approximately 7-8 inches wide, 5-6 inches high and 3+ inches deep. The smallest cave opening is about 0.75 inches diameter and the largest opening about 1.5 inches across its widest dimension. The body of the "rock" is hollow, but is not intended to be occupied by fish. The bottom and back sides of the rock are flat and at a 90 degree angle; the rock is intended to sit against the back glass of the aquarium, with no room for fish to hide behind it (although let's be honest - if there's a small space in an aquarium, then fish will go wherever they want to go: "Where there's a will, there's a way." ).

Like my last caves, this is a blend of terra cotta and white clays. The surface is textured by stabbing the wet clay with a toothbrush's dry bristles. The small holes perforate the clay wall, creating passages into the hollow (unused) cavities inside the rock. These holes were added for one reason: I know that when you make a hollow clay structure, it is wise to create one or more openings to allow gases to escape the structure while firing rather than trapping them inside, where they will expand and more-than-likely break the clay structure. I've made the holes very narrow because I want them to be so small that juvenile fish cannot enter and hide inside the structure, where (if they did get inside) they might grow, become trapped, and die. As a possible after-the-fact benefit, I'm hoping that the holes (along with the rough texturing) will create places where Java moss can grab onto the clay and grow, making the structure look more natural over time while the structure is in an aquarium. Of course, this doesn't "really" look natural, but it's fun to imagine and create these structures with this pseudo-natural appearance.

In fact, this may all be a fool's errand since I don't know yet how well these things will fire. But while I wait to fire the first structures, I'm finding that the process of sculpting is educational because I'm learning from my actions about what techniques work and don't. So even if all these things I've made bust apart when fired so that I have to start over, I'll look at it as an opportunity for gaining wisdom and experience for making more.

UPDATE: "What NOT to do:"

I finally reached the person who has a kiln near me, and I learned that my idea of texturing the clay by pressing salt into the surface (and then rinsing it off later) was a HORRIBLE idea. According to the kiln owner (who has been doing this for a while, so I trust his wisdom; from hereon, I will call him "the artist"), if there are small amounts of residual salts on the clay when it is fired in the kiln, the salts will essentially vaporize off the clay and create a fine coating inside the kiln. While that won't cause any immediate harm to the kiln, over time the salt ions will corrode the inner structures in the kiln. For that reason, he doesn't want to put my salt-treated caves anywhere near his kiln.

So the GOOD news is that the two caves I've made with triangular entrances were not treated with salt, and neither (thankfully) was the rock structure I made yesterday (the object presented in the post immediately before this). Therefore, these three structures are good to "test-fire." The artist and I agreed to meet in the next week or so to fire these pieces. He has some additional concern that the brand of clay I used may not be easy to fire; if it doesn't withstand the kiln (even at low temperatures), he says the caves may "melt like lava." If that does happen, then I will get a new type clay directly from him, a type of clay which he uses himself and so he knows it will work in his kiln; and then I'll just start over making new caves.

So the BAD news is that three of the pieces I made were treated with salt. These are the two brown-and-white standard caves (really nice, in my humble opinion; in fact, I thought these were the best I've made so far), plus the 2-cave rock structure which I made a couple of weeks ago. Those may just get thrown away and I'll chalk them up as learning experiences... But before I throw them away, I will explore other options - for example, could they be "cooked" in a simple back yard barbeque or fire pit? As a matter of fact, maybe they can! I just Googled the phrase "Can clay pots be fired in a charcoal barbeque" and I found this result: Grilling Season: How to Pit Fire Pottery Using a Good Old-Fashioned Charcoal Grill. All is not lost!

Cheers, Eric

P.S. About using my own barbeque as a kiln.... What I DIDN'T see in that article is whether or not I can still use the barbeque as a barbeque after firing pottery - I wonder: Does it somehow damage the barbeque in a way that makes it not foodsafe?

Marine590622 wrote:Eric, I really like those two. I would love to see those fired with a wood firing process... Between the texture from the work you did, the texture from the glaze, and the stonelike nature of the finish, I think you would be really pleased.

Bekateen wrote:...could they be "cooked" in a simple back yard barbeque or fire pit? As a matter of fact, maybe they can! I just Googled the phrase "Can clay pots be fired in a charcoal barbeque" and I found this result: Grilling Season: How to Pit Fire Pottery Using a Good Old-Fashioned Charcoal Grill. All is not lost!

@Marine590622, you may get your wish sooner than later.

In the for what it is worth department. I travel around the state of Wi about 1 week out of 4 This week is the week. Today, I was able to spend an hour in a local park collecting alder cones, and then I was able to stop in and pick up 20 feet of bamboo in the 3 to 4 inch diameter range for under $30.

bekateen wrote:

Marine590622 wrote:Eric, I really like those two. I would love to see those fired with a wood firing process... Between the texture from the work you did, the texture from the glaze, and the stonelike nature of the finish, I think you would be really pleased.

Bekateen wrote:...could they be "cooked" in a simple back yard barbeque or fire pit? As a matter of fact, maybe they can! I just Googled the phrase "Can clay pots be fired in a charcoal barbeque" and I found this result: Grilling Season: How to Pit Fire Pottery Using a Good Old-Fashioned Charcoal Grill. All is not lost!

@Marine590622, you may get your wish sooner than later.

Well don't I feel like an idiot. I am going to a ceramic shop near me Saturday to pick up some clay. Thanks for the pointer Eric.

I will stay in touch, I am thinking I can make a plaster cast of the pieces I have carved and then duplicate them in terra cotta.

Marine590622 wrote:Well don't I feel like an idiot. I am going to a ceramic shop near me Saturday to pick up some clay. Thanks for the pointer Eric.

I will stay in touch, I am thinking I can make a plaster cast of the pieces I have carved and then duplicate them in terra cotta.

No, you shouldn't feel like an idiot, but "slow your roll" as they say . First, if you read the article I provided the link to, you must also read all the comments below it... There are some which mention (albeit with "positive" spins/interpretations) complications that can occur. Several people mentioned how their pots cracked or crumbled, or didn't bake evenly. Second, the artist I'm working with has informed me that the clay I have may not be easy to fire; it isn't designed to be fired, even though the box says it's "natural." If you are going to buy clay, spend some time and find out where real potters in your area get clay that is intended for firing. It will give you better results and it's much cheaper (I am told that 25 pounds of potter's clay for firing is much cheaper than each of the 10 pound boxes of clay I purchased at Michael's Craft Store)... I.e., you'll get more, better clay for less money.

Good luck!
Eric

P.S., thanks for the info on the bamboo. I think I'll just need to find the right "garden center" in order to find pipes bigger than 1.5 inches diameter; these wider pieces aren't carried at my local chain hardware stores.

http://www.pottery-magic.com/ceramics/pouring_mold.htm

so make a cast of what you have and then pour your ceramics. You can make multiples of a piece and try different firing processes.

Interesting. This raises new possibilities.

Okay, well, I used the barbeque method to fire two of my salt-coated caves, specifically the two-color burrito and the two-color D-shaped cave. Um... Let's just say things didn't end as hoped; read on:

I tried to follow the website's recommended instructions as closely as possible; the biggest difference in terms of what I did had to do with the "preheating period" because I use a charcoal chimney to preheat my charcoal briquettes instead of laying the briquettes in a pile and adding fuel to the briquettes.

I stacked the briquettes inside the chimney and started them on fire with some newspaper (that's how the chimney is used). I placed the grill on top of the chimney and placed the two caves on top of the grill so that they could preheat above the briquettes while the briquettes heated up. I placed the grill dome on top of the grill to trap some of the heat and it balanced well.
After preheating one side of the caves for about 15 minutes, I flipped the caves over (placing the caves' top sides down) and continued to preheat them.

Here's where things started to go wrong...

Almost immediately, I could hear an occasional popping sound (like popcorn cooking). A video of this sound is available here:
https://youtu.be/xjGVEpB8DQc


I suspect that by flipping the caves during the preheating process, I caused the tops of the caves (which were facing downward now) to preheat too quickly. The popping continued on and off until the preheating ended. After 10 more minutes of preheating, I removed the dome lid and discovered that the upper surfaces of the two caves had several flat layers of clay broken out, as if they had been laminated into the cave and the layers split. Interestingly, there were NO similar broken areas on the bottoms of the caves (the sides which were preheated first). At this point, in spite of the damage, I moved ahead with the next step: I rapidly removed the grill from the barbeque, leveled out the briquettes, and placed the two caves directly into the briquettes, then covered the grill normally. Almost immediately, the popping started again, and intensely. I could hear shards of clay hitting the dome lid of the barbeque during this time. After a few minutes, the popping stopped. I left the caves in the fire for 40 minutes. Then I removed them and allowed them to cool down to air temperature.

The caves where wrecked, with lots of laminations broken away, and many holes broken completely through the walls of the caves. But the caves were largely intact. I tested the caves to see if they were sufficiently baked by rinsing them under cold water. The outer surfaces were pretty solid, but all of the broken areas started disintegrating back to mud.

I guess it didn't work. Live and learn. The fact that the bottoms of the caves performed better than the tops tells me that part of my problem was that the caves weren't properly pre-heated; the tops heated too quickly and residual water trapped in the clay escaped too quickly, causing the breaks. It's also possible that some of the salts persisted on the clay and may have aided with water retention... Salting is just a bad idea.

The fact that the outer surfaces which survived the firing seemed to be pretty solid might mean the clay was okay to be used for this purpose, but since the inside of the clay melted as if it were unfired tells me that the brand of clay I bought just isn't up to the task. I will consult with the artist about these results to see if it's worth firing my other pieces in his kiln; if my clay is unable to solidify, then my next step will be to get the proper clay and start again.

Cheers, Eric