PlanetCatfish.com

Jools,
Call it "like," "following," or "shoaling" (to use a fish term). I was just looking for a simple way to increase participation without clogging the forum with trivial postings.

I often want to post something like great job, congrats, nice fish, or I am watching this topic unfold... but I also do not want to clog the forum with trivial posts.
-Shane

I'm a +1 for an anonymous upvote/downvote system. I can only see it as a good thing to improve user engagement with the site and offer a more modern experience.

I think most users here are mature enough not to see it as a popularity contest, or systematically target people that they may not like particularly. I imagine most people will use downvotes sparingly, and it will not be a problem.

As Jools points out, it works well on sites like stackoverflow and arstechnica.

Shane wrote:Jools,
Call it "like," "following," or "shoaling" (to use a fish term). I was just looking for a simple way to increase participation without clogging the forum with trivial postings.

I often want to post something like great job, congrats, nice fish, or I am watching this topic unfold... but I also do not want to clog the forum with trivial posts.
-Shane

I've followed the forum rules and haven't commented on posts with a 'Smilie'

Trivial posts
Don't take up valuable server and moderator resources by posting a reply that concerns only you and the poster. Send them a Private Message (PM) instead. For instance, say someone from Paris posts "Hey, I've bred zebra plecos, here are the details..." and then someone else replies "Good job!" This reply is an example of trivial post

I also not a huge fan of those posts that are simply composed of a or +1 (especially if its following a very long quote!)

If bothering to spend time writing a post then why not add a suporting line?
Eg.
From: +1
To: +1. I agree it's a very good idea.

Short, simple and far more informative than a +1 in many cases when referencing previous posts if there is actually more than one issue raised (so is it +1 & +1 (agree absolutely) , or +⅔ and +⅝ (agree on the whole)?)

Like a comment or piece of advice but nothing to add? - that's where a 'like' is useful as well as just to say 'thanks for the info'.
....
Ps. I also hate yes/no answers, and text messages that say 'text/call me'...maddening!!!...text about what? At least give me a clue! ( Tangent!)

If the +1/-1 feature is going to replace trivial posts, doesn't that imply that the whole +1/-1 thing itself is trivial too? Or is this feature going to use less space?

Also: if you are going to do both (+1; I agree with you), that would make the whole like/dislike thing redundant. In that case just write down what you want to say. Nothing wrong with (good) communication.

Imo not every "modern" thing is good and/or an improvement, therefore I object to implementing it just because of that. Anonymous is also a no go imo, as stated before.

I'm afraid that this will become a popularity thing in the end, so it all comes down to counting.
In this respect I'm with Arthur Lee, front man of the band Love, who already sang in 1967:
"If you want to count me, count me out".

You can't please everyone every time - with a +1/like feature I'm sure some will still post a simple '+1' or

Maybe it will make threads a little cleaner, and if implement well it may reduce server loads (although I suspect it will just move it across with only slightly savings)

I don't consider these as 'implementing for implementations sake' , or 'because its the modern approach'....it should be done on wether it can create a positive improvement to the user experoemce.
Normally it would be sensible to have a test group, however because of the wide spread of knowledge and experience who would you choose? Random? - I don't believe the forum has enough active members to make a test group a valid proposition for an option that requires actively participating (and of course its likely to be an infrequently used option), plus it would need to be confined within the group which makes it far more difficult in an open environment (it would be an easy option in networks with user groups to have a set test group)

I'm afraid it must be an all or nothing option, regardless if users choose to participate. I fail to subscribe to many of the negatives being banded about, however the positives are difficult to define as its impossible to access the usage and impact before it goes live. Imo it will essentially be a judgement call by whoever throw the switch.

OK- lets play +1/-1 for this thread.

I give a -1 to every post by dpm1 since he holds the opposite view as I do.
I give Shane several -1s as well.
I give racoll, Bas Pels, marc and bakateen +1s.

I need not have posted anything myself since I just made my disapproval/disagreement and my approval/agreement known with a few +1 and -1s. And since I did not post, merely rated, there are now no posts by me in this thread that might be rated. And since I prefer not to participate in a rating system, this is how I also avoid the potential to disagree or "retaliate" with a -1.

Is everybody happy now?

I am a member of several forums with a 'like' or 'thanks' feature, which seems to work well. Some people choose to use it and some don't, but it allows a brief expression of approval without extending threads unnecessarily. It is not anonymous on the forums I am on.

I cannot see a positive benefit in a 'dislike' feature. If you disagree with something, you should explain your reasoning. It is also in my view more prone to abuse if people fall out (which does happen sometimes). I think a 'dislike' feature only has negative connotations.

Let's use a real-life example and say someone thinks my giant Oto is a Hypoptopoma and someone else thinks it's an Oxyropsis.
It's fine for people to 'like' what they think is the correct ID, but if people 'dislike' the ID they think is wrong then that penalises the person who suggested it in good faith (and was very close to the mark). Surely that will discourage people from participating in such discussions?

If someone disagrees with what has been posted (in this example, the caudal peduncle looks wrong for a Hypoptopoma so it's more likely to be an Oxyropsis) then it's great to know that reasoning. Just a -1 or dislike is much less useful.

+1 to agree needs no further explanation, but if the member wish to do so then of course they are free to add a post anyway.

Regards,
Paul

PS I'm still not sure if I have Hypoptopoma or Oxyropsis but that's the subject of another thread...


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TwoTankAmin wrote:I think some salient points are being missed here. So let me offer an example. Most members eventually come to learn who the"resident experts" are on the site. It doesn't take a genius to discern who has extensive experience. So now lets suppose I write a post about breeding zebra plecos. I spend a lot of time and effort to write it.

Over the next week or two I revisit my post and I see that not one of the most respected members here have given my post a +1. Now this may not be due to their not liking it. Some may not have read it figuring they have the knowledge already or did not have the time. Some may simply not bother to +1 one it and some may dislike me enough never to +1 anything I say. Whatever the reasons, from my point of view a piece that I felt had good information etc. apparently did not and that my time and effort were basically wasted. So the next time I wont bother. And then how much time will it take before I might begin to feel there is less reason to visit and to participate? Ask yourselves how the avaergage member might react in a similar situation.

(edited to ad the letter k to make thin into think in the first line)

Sorry to say, but this is already the case. It is for me anyway... With or without the +1 status.
If you look at how many experts we have here, no one really cares to post a reply. I use Facebook wisily (I think). Even if no one reply's but does take the time to like my picture of post (names are included so you can see who does the liking) it boosts up my confidence and I know I'm doing ok. It exactly the way Shane discribes it really. If I post a tread here, which I mostly still do, I get near to zero respons.... It does effect me and that's just being honest.

But I also do understand the other side of the like option. I see the same on fb. But you will always have up and down side about everything.

Overthinking what I just commented, it can sound a bit to negative. That's not the case, I didn't want it to sound that way.

I think every body like to get a pat on the shoulder every now and again. It's all down to communication. If my post has been seen let's say 500 times but you only get 0-2 reply's, that's not very incouraging.. If the like option gives a more easier way for people to interact with a tread then I would say yes "like" At least it gives the topic starter some kind of a positive feedback Maybe in our current lifes this is the more modern way to go on forums.

TwoTankAmin wrote:This site has many great features, but using them or not is left up to users. Many folks like to post about spawning a given fish in the breeder area here. I have spawned every single pleco I have kept. It makes me happy, I sell or trade the offspring and I may post in a forum thread now and then about a spawn. However, I do not participate in the breeder reporting area here. I do not even read other folks breeding reports. That is my choice, however.

Hi TTA,

I know that focusing on this one statement carries us a little off the topic of this thread, and I don't wish to shift the thread focus, but I read your post (quoted here) and I feel compelled to comment:

You are absolutely right when you point out that it is really the prerogative of every user here to take advantage of whichever site features they choose, and to remove themselves (not participate) from every feature they wish to stay out of, and I fully support this perspective. I would, however, like to pick on this one point of the breeder board, and perhaps encourage you to reexamine why you don't fill out your own blogs for the species you have spawned.

I've only been a member on PlanetCatfish for a few months, and I've come to find the blogs to be one of the most accessible and useful features of this site. By reading and comparing the blogs of different people for the same species, I feel like I develop a "bigger picture" understanding about what is and isn't important when it comes to getting a species to spawn - tank conditions that are unimportant to the fish will show high variability from keeper to keeper, whereas conditions that are critical to the fish won't (this brings up a whole other feature I'd like to consider in the future, but with all the 31 bugs/revisions, this is no time to mention it ). Anyway, my point is this: I appreciate your concern that the breeder board points system may make this feature seem like a competition or contest, and it's done on the honor system so keepers' claims aren't independently validated by the site. But for "noobs" like me is, most of the time when our fish spawn, it's because of nothing purposeful or active that we did ourselves; we may fill out a blog, and provide lots of detail, but we might not even recognize which of those details was really important to the fish and which details are extraneous. By contrast, a person like yourself with years of experience and many spawned spp. under your belt has learned various tricks of the trade, so that you can purposefully set up conditions that make spawning more likely. Consequently, if you did fill out blogs for all the spp. you've spawned, those would carry a lot of weight to people like myself because we can tell by your blog score that you are an experienced breeder.

When you post to a forum suggestions to others as to how to breed a particular fish, that's all well and good. But as you know, with all the other forum posts, a person really has to search through the forums to find these details once they get buried by newer posts. But the nice thing about blogs is that they stay right there - easy for the world to find and access - on the species description page. So I guess what I'm saying is this: If you can get past the social /trivial implications of blog points scores, I would encourage you to rethink your position on the blogs, and I would appreciate reading your blogs on fish that I'm also interested in spawning.

I have to admit that I am puzzled and frustrated when I look at a species page and the blog section indicates that nobody has spawned a particular species (i.e., no blog entries exist), and yet the photos for that same species show mating, eggs, parental care and juvenile development! To me, when I see a blog section with no entries, or very few entries, that communicates to me that either this species is extremely difficult to breed or that the species is so rare that nobody has had a chance. And that may discourage me from buying and trying to breed that species because I don't want to end up with a species that I can't spawn.

That's my happy thought for the day.

Cheers, Eric

I am not all that good. I have had about 7 species of pleco spawn in my tanks. On this site I am a rank amateur compared to the real pros. In general I am not a blogger or journal keeper. The one exception to that was a thread on Barbie's old site on my zebra experience. I posted to it whenever anything went on in the tank and, allowed folks to ask questions and I think I kept adding to it up until the time the site stopped being there. A copy now resides here http://www.plecoworld.org/modules.php?n ... sc&start=0 That was enough for me for a lifetime.

You are correct about having things on sites be optional to some extent. I find just seeing the breeder lists on each species page is enough for me to find more info if I need it. So I choose not to be involved in breeder reports. I do not suggest that function should be removed and I understand why most people like it. With a rating system, without the ability for one to opt out of it, then there is no choice.

Consider this. If somebody posts something in an area about which I am familiar and reasonably experienced and they say something which I feel is inaccurate, if there might be another way to view it or if I think there is something relevant that was omitted, I will post this. I do not think it is a good idea on any fish site, whether here or a general site, to allow incorrect or incomplete information to be allowed to sit without a response. On the other hand, when I feel the information in a post is pretty good, I see no reason to comment at all if I cannot add something. Therefore, my assumption is that if the information in a post is decent, by members not adding to or challenging it, they are defacto saying +1. To borrow from dpm, I think most members here are intelligent enough to behave in this fashion, so there should be no need for a +1 or -1 system at all.

TTA, Thanks for the response. I understand your humility relative to "real pros;" seven species of plecos may not be a lot by some standards. But to put your accomplishments in perspective, that's seven more species of plecos than I've spawned!

When you describe your first experience blogging about the zebras, that is not what I had in mind. No, I think I too would tire of writing constantly updated web logs for each species I spawn (even if it's still a short list as of today). But I sure appreciate people sharing what worked for them in the blog records that are kept here at PC, and that's why I contribute to the blogs, too. It's unfortunate that the "blogs" on this site share the same name with the verb "blogging," which connotes that on-going labor of updates in attempt to keep the site "fresh" and "new." True, participants in the PC blogs can return to one of their blogs and add updated photos, etc., but I see the blogs here as being more of a record than a living document - records of water conditions, tank decorations, food regimen (for adults and fry), etc. This is the gold of the blog system.

TwoTankAmin wrote:I find just seeing the breeder lists on each species page is enough for me to find more info if I need it

Okay, but may I point out that if others take the same approach you have - that is not contributing to the blogs, then when you go to a particular species and look at the breeder list (as you say you do), you might find nothing there.

Finally, while the freedom to participate or not might seem similar between a feature such as the blogs and a feature such as the "like" option being discussed in this thread (I'm ignoring the "dislike" option because I see no merit in it whatsoever, for reasons I've already outlined), I would offer that the two really aren't comparable. Features like the blogs build a database - a wealth of information - for users to access, and the success of the database is profoundly influenced by the willingness of PC members to contribute their knowledge; if too many members opt out, then there is no database. By contrast, the like feature is really only a trivial way of saying "good job" or "I agree" or "congratulations" without cluttering up the thread with more and more posts. People can choose to opt out, and still share the same messages of "good job" or "I agree" or "congratulations" just by posting to a thread.

Cheers, Eric

jac wrote: If you look at how many experts we have here, no one really cares to post a reply. I use Facebook wisily (I think). Even if no one reply's but does take the time to like my picture of post (names are included so you can see who does the liking) it boosts up my confidence and I know I'm doing ok. It exactly the way Shane discribes it really. If I post a tread here, which I mostly still do, I get near to zero respons.... It does effect me and that's just being honest.

This was exactly my point earlier. It's disheartening to spend a long time writing a post and nobody responds.

Many times I feel like wanting to interact with forum posts, but have nothing constructive or meaningful say other than "cool", or "nice one" (as everyone knows, posting such trivial content is against forum rules for good reason). Therefore, allowing people to "like" increases participation, engagement and feedback (i.e. it encourages people to post more frequently, I feel).

racoll wrote:

jac wrote: If you look at how many experts we have here, no one really cares to post a reply. I use Facebook wisily (I think). Even if no one reply's but does take the time to like my picture of post (names are included so you can see who does the liking) it boosts up my confidence and I know I'm doing ok. It exactly the way Shane discribes it really. If I post a tread here, which I mostly still do, I get near to zero respons.... It does effect me and that's just being honest.

This was exactly my point earlier. It's disheartening to spend a long time writing a post and nobody responds.

Many times I feel like wanting to interact with forum posts, but have nothing constructive or meaningful say other than "cool", or "nice one" (as everyone knows, posting such trivial content is against forum rules for good reason). Therefore, allowing people to "like" increases participation, engagement and feedback (i.e. it encourages people to post more frequently, I feel).

My feelings as well. I also don't see the need for a *dislike* choice as if one really disagrees with something, one should have something substantive to say and not a simple (and meaningless) *dislike*.

I might be a little late to add all this, but to provide a different perspective to the like debate:

I am one of those users who loves catfish and loves this site, but very rarely posts. I am young and much less knowledgeable than the active user base here - most all of my knowledge about catfish comes from this site, so I tend more to "lurk" and just read. I would love to more actively participate and should hope to one day be able to call myself an expert on catfish.
However, this site is incredibly intimidating. It certainly isn't your typical forum (which adds to its credibility, for sure) and is very much so governed by the knowledgeable. It is very hard to get involved here when you are new, less knowledgeable, and have little to no credibility of your own to go on.

I think a dislike feature would widen that gap further. Should I, as a new inexperienced user, venture to post something that others disagree with, being met with a barrage of dislikes rather than one person's gentle correction would probably lead me to stop using the forum entirely.
A like feature I think would, if anything, be beneficial in that regard. It would make it easier to interact with other users and begin to break that intimidating barrier.

Given the way this site functions, governed by the knowledgeable, I highly doubt a like feature would dissolve into a popularity contest. That's the sort of thing that happens in places with less intelligent discussion and a larger user base. I am active on the Planted Tank forum and could see that being a potential (though still not definitive) result of such a feature being implemented there, especially with the number of people that post on that sort of site looking for quick fixes and easy answers that they could have easily looked up themselves. But the way this site functions and the content that predominates here, what with the regular taxonomic updates and more scientific discussions, makes it an entirely different situation.

But a like feature also isn't something that the site absolutely needs. I don't see it being used that extensively, after the initial interest, if it is implemented. Planet Catfish functions just fine without it, it would just be a side bonus feature. But it would definitely make me a little more likely to interact with other users.

For those that don't want to use it, you wouldn't need to. You couldn't stop people from liking your posts or profile or however it's implemented, but you could just never like anything yourself and put a note saying so in your signature, if you're concerned that not doing so might offend people.

As for assuming that you're right with no responses, I don't think that's really a great way to handle things. What if the people that have viewed my thread don't feel that they know enough about the subject to weigh in? How am I to know if that's the case or that they agree? I could as easily assume that no one is interested in my topic or that my thread title did not grab the attention of the people that would be able to help (even if just by affirming my points). And depending on the section of the forum I post in, that might affect who views my threads as well. My interest is mostly in Asian species, but that doesn't mean someone who primarily keeps plecos wouldn't be able to add insight to my post - but the Asian catfish section doesn't seem to get much traffic. So my thread might just not be getting responses because the right people aren't seeing it. Threads left unanswered like this, on the assumption that the user who posted them understands that silence should be taken as affirmation of their views, could lead a newer user like myself to get discouraged and give up on the forums.

And I think giving the like/dislike feature only to experts would be a terrible move that would just further segregate the community and make it even more incredibly intimidating for new users (though it might not bother those already active because they would better understand the point of the distinction).

All that said, I love the idea mentioned of being able to like certain species, especially if we would then have access to a list of those species or perhaps a separate page to navigate to of algorithm-generated most recent posts relevant to the species we've expressed interest in. I would rather that weren't the main page, though, as that is how I find most of the threads I read.

(Sorry this post is so disorganized, I was trying to address various points brought up throughout the thread.)

@Narelle, That is really a really good perspective, and well said. Thank you. I "like" your post.

bekateen wrote:@Narelle, That is really a really good perspective, and well said. Thank you. I "like" your post.

Yup, I agree. I am interesting in the intimating nature of the site too. It's something that specialist clubs in the real world suffer from as much as websites.

I am learning and finding the discussion very useful.

Slightly related, but many may not know or have forgotten about it, but there is a forum usage tracker hidden away...

Jools

As a member for less than a year, I am far from an expert, still feeling my way with catfish-keeping. I agree that the site can sometimes feel intimidating and think Narelle has put it very well. However, it's a great resource and I am always amazed with the patience shown by the experts to us newbies.

When someone posted an ID request a couple of days ago while I was online, I thought to myself, 'Oooh,for once I think I know this one, it's a Brachyrhamdia.' But I very nearly didn't post for fear of being wrong and looking stupid. I did post, and then had my heart in my mouth until a few of the more experienced members agreed. It's nice to feel that I'm just starting to know enough to give something back, rather than just asking the questions.

In some ways being a little intimidating is a positive thing because it discourages people from posting knowledge unless they're sure of it, but it can be hard for the newbie (who is, after all, the future of the forum).

Back to the subject of 'likes', one of the other forums I am on counts not just the number of likes received, but also the number of likes given. The former is a good indicator of how much experience and/or respect the member has, while the latter is almost a measure of how grateful someone is for advice given, or how appreciative they are of other people's achievements.



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happy new year PC.
I have come late to this discussion and I would really like a like button, because there is some stuff I like on page 1, page 2, and page 3 of this topic.
The only way I have to do that currently is to "quote" those posts and give them a +1 in my post, which is all very well and good, but the discussion has evolved, and all that would do is potentially annoy the active participants.
This is very much like joining a conversation (in real life) near its middle, or arriving late to a meeting (real world again). To be forever asking for old stuff to be repeated is just annoying for the folks who "were on time".
Amazon has a "was this review helpful? Yes/no" function, and as far as I know only the helpful results show?
I also understand where JAC and TTA, are coming from in regard to some posts take a lot of effort, and often people may not be able to help, but do appreciate the effort, and commenting will not help so no comment is made, leaving the poster wondering.......
One way around the "like" feature would be to allow a like type comment to be placed on the original post rather than in the sequential timeline of the topic conversation; however this may cause more issues with topic fragmentation.
I also totaly get what Narelle is saying. When I first joined I had many questions and was happy to post about those, but was unwilling to comment on others posts in case I made a dick of myself, or faced the wrath of an "expert", or simply my "style" was misinterpreted due to the global reach of this site and the many many different cultures and native languages of the participants. Kiwi humour doesn't always translate well without facial expressions, and translators are sometimes not correct.
I don't like the dislike button option, as I think that dislikes should always come with an explanation.
In addition I also think that with the number of forums and other sites that everyone participates in these days that people's time is more precious. I know that I go on the forums less now, than I did a few months ago, and stuff that I like, but doesn't polarise me, doesn't get the time needed to make a decent and thought out comment.
Therefore being able to give a positive affermation to the poster would be of use to me.
I do not necessarily understand the concept of the "popularity contest", however it would be quite simple to police, and add to the moderator function. It would be quite simple (wouldn't it Jools) to have an "alert" sent to the mods when a post gets more than "x" likes and for the mod to look at that post and decide if they information was "correct" and then mark that post as "no longer requiring moderating", if the information was "incorrect" then the mod could zero the likes and lock the like feature (or whatever), which would also mean a preference could be made of people to opt out of having their posts liked.
"Experts" could also be exempt from this monitoring, as one would expect them to a) be more likely to be correct and b) not be interested in popularity........
Cheers

Geoff.