PlanetCatfish.com

I would have to side with, Catfish Lover on this one...while humans encroaching on wild habitats and pollution are much larger threats to wild fish(and all animals) than the aquarium trade is...I think that it is still a major reason as to why wild stocks are being depleted...just look at what has happened to Lake Victoria and certain cichlid species...

whereas Lakes Malawi and Tanganyika still support the rich diversity of fish species for which they are so famous, the cichlids of Lake Victoria are among the most threatened animals on Earth.

Certainly pollution and human encroachment and the introduction of the Nile Perch has contributed to this...but the one of the biggest culprits has been man and his insatiable appetite for wild caught fish!...how did the commercial value of these fish help them? There are now some species that only exist in aquariums...and others that no one will ever get to see or own again...to me, owning an aquarium species or a "man-made" fish is better than looking at one in a book...

James

CanadianGuy wrote:...just look at what has happened to Lake Victoria and certain c*****d species...

whereas Lakes Malawi and Tanganyika still support the rich diversity of fish species for which they are so famous, the c*****ds of Lake Victoria are among the most threatened animals on Earth.

James

Eh? Someone with more cichlid knowledge than me can confirm sources, but the decimation of cichlid species endemic to Lake Victoria was due to the introduction of the Nile Perch was it not? Look at your arguement here, if fish collection for the ornamental fish trade is the problem, why is it not evident in the other lakes?

CanadianGuy wrote:...how did the commercial value of these fish help them?

They didn't have one sufficiently developed and so it didn't help them one iota...

Jools

Jools,

It's a tricky question...the eggs may be smaller, the young harder to raise and they may grow much more slowly...but I don't think that can be called a sign of weakness...it's obvious that they require special care and conditions compared to a regular bristlenose...but it's like comparing Discus to African cichlids...discus are much more sensitive and are more slow growing...as long as you are meeting the requirements that this fish require, they should have no problem living a happy life...as for the vitality of the fish...again what are you comparing it to?...some fish live less than a year...others live for many, many years...so long as the fish is properly cared for and not suffering, then I don't think there is anything wrong with propagating the species...

As I had said before...as long as the fish isn't suffering because of whatever trait has been bred into it then I would have no problem breeding and selling them...


I also have to say that I have only seen one opinion as to why it is not a good idea to propagate this fish(the long fins hampering it's ability to swim)...and I have seen another saying that this did not seem to affect the fish in any way...so it's a draw so far....

Jools...is it a good idea to propagate ANY fish???

As for the location topic...I would be happy to comply with your request!

James

CanadianGuy wrote:...it's obvious that they require special care and conditions compared to a regular bristlenose...but it's like comparing Discus to African c*****ds...discus are much more sensitive and are more slow growing...as long as you are meeting the requirements that this fish require, they should have no problem living a happy life...as for the vitality of the fish...again what are you comparing it to?...some fish live less than a year...others live for many, many years...so long as the fish is properly cared for and not suffering, then I don't think there is anything wrong with propagating the species...

No! Discus and African cichlids are different genera, that is not the point. The point I make is that the longfin variety maybe weaker than than the regular fin variety. That those two varieties are the same species is critical to the ability to make meaningful comparison. These fish are NOT new species (they might be hybrids) so comparisons with "common" bristlnoses are valid and our point of reference.

CanadianGuy wrote:Jools...is it a good idea to propagate ANY fish???

Yes, of course! So we can learn about them, take pressure off wild stocks and for our own selfish pleasure! But that comes with responsibility (some partially deferred from mother nature) to ensure we are not creating hybrids, weakened fish and cull approriately.

Jools

PS Thanks for sorting your location. We now know you are not a Canadian abroad!

One general observation here, evidenced by this topic but it is one fact that has come from the regular discussion of these issues. The more of a clear view you have of the species concepts and catfish systematics in general, the more one tends towards being a purist. The less you know (or care?) about classification the more breeding for variety appeals.

Just a 2p post, but it I think it rings true?

Jools

CanadianGuy wrote:it would be intersting to find out just how many species of fish are now extinct in the wild just because of mans infatuation with their uniqness and beauty...

I can think of none. In contrast to man's need for power and food and its effect on freshwater fish stocks, ornamental fish collection isn't even at the races. Anyway, this is getting a bit off topic...

http://www.oneworld.org/patp/pap_victoria.html has a good representation of the Lake Victoria situation. It mentions ornamental fish collection, but if read levelly it can be seen that this is not one of the major issues.

Jools

I was just trying to make the point that a lot of fish require special care/are harder to care for/breed/raise...I don't think that you can use the argument that it is a weaker fish...you may have to allow for it's "weakness" but there are many fish that require special care...so long as you provide this care are they really any less of a fish than a so called normal variant??

to ensure we are not creating hybrids, weakened fish and cull approriately

I still haven't beens shown that breeding "hybrids" is wrong...if we lived in a world with only "pure" fish, then we would all be very limited in the fish we could keep...almost every type of fish you can buy also come in some sort of hybrid form...wether it be a colour...or size...or the shape of it's fins...without hybrids in one form or another this hobby that we all are so obviously passionate about would be a boring one indeed...

As far as a species of fish being harvested into extinction for the aquarium trade...
Jools wrote:

I can think of none. In contrast to man's need for power and food and its effect on freshwater fish stocks, ornamental fish collection isn't even at the races

With only searching for a few minutes I was able to find this...

In addition to fishing for food in some regions there has been intensive fishing for the aquarium trade. In the case of the discus of lake Tefe this has had a devastating effect on the local population which is now commercially extinct.

While this isn't completely extinct...how much closer do you want to get???...but you are right this a topic for another place...

CanadianGuy wrote:I still haven't beens shown that breeding "hybrids" is wrong...if we lived in a world with only "pure" fish, then we would all be very limited in the fish we could keep...almost every type of fish you can buy also come in some sort of hybrid form...wether it be a colour...or size...or the shape of it's fins...without hybrids in one form or another this hobby that we all are so obviously passionate about would be a boring one indeed...

Maybe the issue here is that your view and mine on what constitues a hybrid is different. What do you think a hybrid is?

without hybrids in one form or another this hobby that we all are so obviously passionate about would be a boring one indeed...

Without fear of exaggeration, and in a year of admin on this forum, that is probably the most contentious remark I have ever replied to. Without hybrids we have at the very least 2500 species of catfish alone. How many do you need to fill your tanks with human interest!?!?! Seriously, what do you want in a fish? I mean that as an open, friendly question. I just don't get what you see in, for example, the artificially created long finned Ancistrus?

I would also make the point that, if a bright purple long finned Ancistrus was found in the wild I'd be the first one on a plane with nets and a bucket, so I'm trying to understand here what drives me as well as you!

Jools

CanadianGuy wrote:Of those 2500 species of catfish how many are suited to be kept by the average aquarist in the home aquarium???? How many other species of fish are there in the world???...more than anyone could ever even see in a lifetime...but again how many of those are suitable for life in the home aquarium?...without "hybrids"...which you seem to think are any fish that isn't exactly the same as it came from the wild...the choices of what fish we could keep in our homes would be much more limited...

No, a hybrid is the cross of one species with another. Again I ask, what do you think a hybrid is? Out of the 2500, I would estimate that around 700 would make really good aquarium fish. 700 species is more than one person can deal with in a lifetime! I mean there are 350 l-numbers and over 100 c-numbers alone. Then look at all the wonderful catfish in Asia and Africa.

CanadianGuy wrote:As for what I find beautiful about the Longfin Bristlenose...it's obviously the long flowing fins...it's the same thing with angelfish that have the veil trait...beautiful flowing fins...if I didn't find the fins attractive I would simply get a "common" Bristlenose...which I like because of it's bristles...the two combined makes for...at least in my eyes...a very unique and beautiful pleco...

All species are unique, that's what makes them species (and extinction so terribly final)! There are lots of natuarally occuring long finned plecos or catfish or fish by my point is that ones that do not have to survive the rigours of natural selection tend to be weakened. I love beautiful flowing fins (Elsewhere I have just been writing in great excitement about a long-finned <I>Mystus</I>) but not if they make the fish look or act limited.

CanadianGuy wrote:but what is the difference if a hobbyist pairs two fish with traits that he finds attractive in the hope that the resulting fry are a combination of traits or an improvement over the parents...this can also be used to breed out the "weakness" and create a better end result...

Again, it is the absence of natural selection and it's replacement with artifical selection.

CanadianGuy wrote:I think that our views on hybrids are like other people views on cars...some think that they shouldn't be altered in any way...others prefer modified cars...it's just a matter of preference...that's what this world is about...

NO NO NO!!!! Hybrids are different from selective breed strains of one species! That is a major point! I agree that our hobby has to have artifical varieties to remain commercially stable. Long tails, bubble eyes, missing dorsal fins etc are here to stay, that is a fact even if Shane does not like it.

I'm OK with varieties being maintained for size, colour, even length of fins but I have to stop short of condoning deliberatly limiting a fishes vitality. The is considerable skill in doing this properly (something that has yet to be achieved in the <I>Ancsitrus</I> strain I hasten to add). Fish farming using hormones (for either human food or fancy) is also in this boat. It makes me uncomfortable but it is there and for good reason.

Deliberate hybridization on the other hand is just plain irresponsible. In my book it sits alongside injecting dye and deliberately stunting fishes.

I would like to re-iterate the point that hybridization and selective breeding are two different things.

Like Shane, I find that I have spent an entire morning writing this stuff. I'm off to go and work on the cat-log and let some others join in in my stead.

Jools

All,
I will make this my last post on the topic as it has gone far off base and, despite Jool's attempts, I am not sure we will ever have useful conversation on this topic.

Gino wrote,

I am an angelfish breeder if that means anything here and only pristine perfect angels are sold. All imperfect fish end up being food for something else. There is no difference in my mind between a veiltail angelfish and a longfin ancistrus, but that is just my opinion. In Shanes world the only angels he would keep are plain jane regular tailed silvers because to him, all veiled, blushing or non-wild color variations are man made.

Gino, yes and no. If you sold only "perfect" Angel fish, you would offer only Pterophyllum altum, P. dumerilii, and P. scalare. Veiltails, blacks, marbeleds, et al are not perfect Angelfish as they are a modified and greatly weakened strains of natural angels. I agree that there is no difference between veiltail angels and long-fin Ancistrus, they are both products of selective breeding that have created, from a health and survivability standpoint, an inferior fish. Down here in South America Angels and Discus are just plain old community fish and I have seen them thrive and even breed in community tanks. This came as some surprise to me having read alot about angels and Discus and seeing the absolute sterile conditions that breeders maintain for these fish in the U.S. and Europe. Then it hit me. The reason that people like Jack Wattley and others maintain their fishes this way is because the aquarium bred strains of these fish are so inbred and weakened that sterile tanks and 50 percent daily water changes are the only way they can be kept alive. Granted this applies to Discus more than angels, but I am sure you see my point. I am not sure why you said that I would have people only keep "plain jane regular tailed silvers." As an angel fish person you certainly know that there are at least three Pterophyllum spp. and several regional variations and color morphs. Why not propagate these fish since they are the ones suffering from detrimental environmental impacts and habitat loss? Your expertise could be used to keep "real" angelfish around a lot longer. Also, in my opinion, a wild caught Altum angel is far more beautiful than an fancy strain created by breeders.

This ties in with my point about long-finned Ancistrus. There are currently around 50 described Ancistrus and probably another 20-30 undescribed spp. Several of these spp. are facing serious problems in the wild, mainly due to pollution. With all of this natural variety in the genus, and all the problems these fish face in the wild, why should we hobbyists concentrate our efforts and talents on propogating selectively bred "fancy" forms? If you understand this, then you will also see why I can not help but get irked when someone says, "I still haven't beens shown that breeding "hybrids" is wrong (sic)." We still have not even come close to sorting out and describing all the catfish spp in the world, which is why the National Science Foundation is currently funding the All Catfish Sp. Project. Take a look at some of the Synodontis posts to see what kind of havoc hybridization in Eastern Europe is wrecking on this genus.

Anyway, I hope that you and Canadianguy are able to understand my point of view better after reading this and why I am sensitive to the topic.
-Shane

My last post has overwritten that of CanadianGuys.

This is the thrid time this has happened and I do not know why.

It is VERY annoying as I spent a lot of time (as I am sure he did) writing this.

I will look into it...

Jools

Wow,That's what I was trying to stop from happening. A giant negative conversation.
SORRY, If you feel I was putting you down.I DON"T do that to anyone.I value our right to deside for ourselves what we like and dislike....


Jerry

...if I were to find out that the longfin trait affected the pl*cos health in any way I would take that into consideration...

As you how now found out the longfin bristlenose is basicly a hybrid.

And if you learn from the hybrids which have been in the hobby the longest, all have subsiquent problems. Angles live shorter lives compared to wild, and can be extreemly poor parents and have less restance to diseases. Bollon mollies have many internal problems and less disease restance. Fancy goodfish live shorter lives, cannot swim properly, have squashed/shortend everthing and suffer major swim bladder problems. Guppies have bent spines, cannot swim properly, live shorter lives instead of the natural live span of 1650days its now down to less than 1000 and falling and also have less diseases restance.

The time span maybe different however this is the path you are taking.

oneoddfish,

Thank you for clearing that up...

I think that only the first part of the conversation was negative...it has now taken on a more amiable flavour...I still don't agree with many points made here, but that is the point right?



magnum4 wrote:

The time span maybe different however this is the path you are taking.

Is it? Has it ever occurred to you that just maybe those that breed longfin Bristlenose and other so called hybrids....might be trying to improve on the shortcomings(if there are any) of these fish??? Wouldn't it be a benefit to all of us if a fish was made stronger and healthier?? Angelfish are a perfect example!...If you look into it you will realize that Shane has his facts confused regarding wilds and domestic strains...

James

Gino, yes and no. If you sold only "perfect" Angel fish, you would offer only Pterophyllum altum, P. dumerilii, and P. scalare.

Shane If I could sell plain P.scalare, I would, but none of the shops in the area want them. As Far as P.Altum goes nobody has figured out how to raise them in an aquarium environment yet. If I could breed them I would. I agree with you P.Altum is one of the most impressive varieties of Pterophyllum available. Dumerlii and leopoldi have a lot of debate going on in Angel circles about not being separate species at all. The general consensus now is they are just another P.Scalare variant. But either way I do not have the resources to collect these fish in the wild as much as I would like to. The other issue is wild fish(angels) take as much as double the time to reach breeding age not to mention the health issues involved with dealing with wild caught fish.

This came as some surprise to me having read alot about angels and Discus and seeing the absolute sterile conditions that breeders maintain for these fish in the U.S. and Europe. Then it hit me. The reason that people like Jack Wattley and others maintain their fishes this way is because the aquarium bred strains of these fish are so inbred and weakened that sterile tanks and 50 percent daily water changes are the only way they can be kept alive.

The reason for this is simple...do you remember the angel/discus plague about 15 years ago? It wiped out a huge number of discus suppliers and angel suppliers. I remember walking into a LFS one day and seeing dieing discus and angels in every tank. Several places shut down so they could clear out the dead and steralize their tanks. Now everybody is paranoid about the next plague.

As far as the 50% water changes, thats a different story. What we are simply doing is trying to simulate their natural environment. Lots of fresh and cooler water changes induces spawning...just like with Corydoras and many other species.

Regarding your point of view, I can respect that Shane, but don't force it on other people. We all have our own opinions and tastes. But like religeon, I don't want to be lectured on which one is the right one for me. I want to make up my own mind. This all started when you and another blasted someone for wanting to propagate a particular strain of ancistrus which you found distasteful and offensive. To others out there it is a beautiful fish. If you want to convince someone that your point of view is the right one, do it in a way where you don't offend the person. As a Forum Moderator you should be setting an example, not attacking people.

I missed it, where was it concluded the long fin is a hybrid? I've always thought of it at a mutation.

As having bred them myself, the fry are a little slower growing and weaker than the normals. But with more selective breeding this can be bred out of them.

I guess people like them because they are so different. Man likes to try and mess with genetics as a hobby, makes us feel superior to the animal world.

All said and done, you can't improve upon God's creation but I don't believe it's morally wrong to work with genetics. There was many negative examples given such as fancy goldfish and balloon mollies but there's some positive ones as well, such as Koi over carp and German Shepherd dog over the wolf.

Someone mention that once you are more advanced into the hobby you'll be a strict purist. Could that be more because of peer pressure and not knowledge? I know the same thing goes on in the cichlid world. And I know for a fact it's more because the ultra purist getting up on his soapbox and preaching his fish religion more than real understanding. There has to be a middle of the road.

I'm just taking a more balanced stand here and looking at both sides. Maybe the truth lays in the middle somewhere. A few longfins and albinos won't hurt but if it ends up like a fancy goldfish that's going to far! IMHO fancy goldfish look like a survivor of a nuclear war, you are better off dead!

Yes, I do wish more people would experiment with breeding the wild L numbers so we can gain more knowledge on how to breed them in captivity. It would also be a great challenge. It's not much of a challenge to breed normal bristlenose and longfins. Just add water, a cave and a pair and feed them heavy on bloodworms... instant fry! Hard or soft water, who cares? No current, they don't mind. They'll also breed in dirty water. They have a one tract mind... sex and making babies.

Well said, Gino!

While this has been informative and many good points have been made by all....it is far from where we started from...

I would like ask that we get back to the original topic if we could...and focus less on the ethics of breeding "hybrid" fish...

Since it's been so long since it has been discussed I'll repeat the questions...

Breeding longfin Bristlenose:

Is this hard to do?
What kind of water conditions, tank set-ups do they require?
They will be in their own tank so anything goes...

I know people will post as they wish...I'm just trying to find the information that I came here for originally!

Thanks...

James

You must have posted yours at the same time and missed my answer on how to breed them. See my last post.

>>Just add water, a cave and a pair and feed them heavy on bloodworms... instant fry! Hard or soft water, who cares? No current, they don't mind. They'll also breed in dirty water. They have a one tract mind... sex and making babies.<<

But they do best as a trio.

Is this hard to do?

No, they breed just like the common brown and albino bristlenose

What kind of water conditions

hard or soft water doesn't matter. But to get an equal amount of sexes from the fry you may try a pH of 7-7.5. I've bred them in hard alkaline water and get a majority of males from the fry.

tank set-ups do they require?

A trio in a 3 foot tank would be ideal. You'll need the breeding caves or ceramic bells

They will be in their own tank so anything goes...

Yes, keep them in their own tank. You may leave the fry right in the breeding tank till it becomes loaded down with fry, then move the breeders, not the fry.

One key is conditioning the females with frozen bloodworms but supplement their diet with green foods.

The fry will take baby brine shrimp or something similar. I always keep some canned French cut green beans in the tank for the adults and fry to nibble on. It's fast, convenient and they love them.

Thanks, Catfish Lover

You're right we posted at the same time and I didn't see yours! Thank you..that is exactly the kind of information I was looking for...and as for your other points I couldn't agree more!

What about temp?

James

They really don't need high temps like many of the L numbers. Just a regular tropical temp of 76-82 will do fine. They are so anxious it's hard to stop them from breeding.

From what I understand (correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not an expert) they can tolerate many water conditions and temps because their wild ancestors live in flooded river puddles. During the rainy season the river floods and the bristlenose get stuck in the pools and puddles when the water recedes. Then the puddles evaporate and the water gets hard and alkaline. Then the river rises again and washes them back into the normal river environment. So, that makes them more tolerant of extreme conditions.

Well..This debate isn´t only about fishes, but about almost everything living as well. How about modified rats, cats - or humans?

You might say that it is ok, as long as it doesn´t hurt the fishes. . but who can say, if it is troublesome to have long fins or not? You can´t ask them. Perhaps they´re weaker than others - or slower swimmers or whatever. . but otherwise you wouldn´t know how they´re feeling. (Yes, I know that fishes aren´t the most brilliant minds. . ) And as an aquarist, the fishes you own, is sort of your resposibility.

The worst case I´ve seen, is that I read on a sign in "Denmarks Aquarium"(which is a museum with a large collection of fishes), that longfinned goldfish "are artificial, so you can easily keep them with plastic plants". Say what???!!!

Well, my opion is - about long-finned bristlenoses - that it is up to the persons, that breed and buy them. I wouldn´t want to own a fish, that is modified to please humans. .and I don´t really understand why an ordinary bristlenose isn´t enough. There´s nothing cuter than an ancistrus with "brushes" on it´s nose

I think we all need to keep an open mind toward each other and the fish hobby in general.
If someone is interested in a particular kind of fish so be it. If a certain kind of fish gives someone pleasure then who are we to criticize them ? Does it really matter whether it comes from the wild or was created by selective breeding ? If some people are interested in preserving a species who am I to criticize them just as who are they to criticize me for wanting to breed a fish for my own viewing pleasure.

Why dont we breed humans selective? In that way there would only be the beautiful and smartest ones that would survive. What kind of future will we have...if it's ok to create animals for our plesure there is not so far away to create people like we want them to be or look.
The humanity have allways and in all times tried to "help" the nature and thought they are much clever but have allways failed without exceptions. Maybe some of all we have done was good in the beginning but for the long term we allways looses.
I dont think it's wrong to use selective breeding to keep species healthy but there should the line draws...not go further only for plesure (money).
I exaggerates the subject but if we accept creating animals for plesure or food...the next generation will accept to go even further...and so on...and it will not take so long time before they do what we dont want them to do. So instead to think only on our self we should think on the future.

Thats my opinion.
Janne

I totally agree. . It´s diffucult to draw a line. However: long fins doesn´t improve anything. It doesn´t improve the bristlenose´s life-quality - it just looks nice (in some people´s opinion) - then why do it?
If we modified mankind so that we all were beautiful and healthy, there would still be some people who would be not-as-beautiful as others. .

canadianguy

If you look into it you will realize that Shane has his facts confused regarding wilds and domestic strains...

Depends how you read shanes post, are you gathering this information from books or personal experience? For example if you take wild discus and put them in a suitable enviroment they would live long lives and breed pretty consistantly being able to raise there own fry. If you take a man made aquarium strain they live shorter lives, do not grow as large a wild discus and some cannot produce enough body mucus to raise the own young. And you consider aquarium straines stronger?

Catfish lover (explain the name?)

I missed it, where was it concluded the long fin is a hybrid? I've always thought of it at a mutation.

Not exactly I said basicly a hybrid. The term hybrid is open to interpretation. A hybrid is not simply the offspring of two seperate species, it's anything composed of incongruous elements.

I guess people like them because they are so different. Man likes to try and mess with genetics as a hobby, makes us feel superior to the animal world.

This is what it's all about, catfish might suffer but, oh well i get a nice fish to look at.

As Far as P.Altum goes nobody has figured out how to raise them in an aquarium environment yet. If I could breed them I would.

mabey more time should be spent doing this rather than creating new species.(this is not aimed at anyone just a general point to show how frustrating it must be for experts to hear questions about man made strains/hybrids when there is much more to be done)

CanadianGuy

Is it? Has it ever occurred to you that just maybe those that breed longfin Bristlenose and other so called hybrids....might be trying to improve on the shortcomings(if there are any) of these fish???

Have you got any examples of any successful hybrids with regards to health? until then NO i haven't.

I still don't agree with many points made here, but that is the point right?

Right.

I think it's a good idea to selectively breed humans...

People that have a long history of criminal activity should be fixed. Then they wouldn't pass it down to future generations. No more hearing, "My dad was a crook, his dad was a crook and his dad was a crook." The buck stops here! In a few generations we wouldn't have much crime

I think I see why there's such passion with the pleco lovers around this subject of the longfins.

The longfins in themselves really aren't all that bad but they are the first popular mutation and as a result represent the key to Pandora's Box of having "parrot" plecos.

BTW... I see they now have a "Hong Kong" parrot. It's crossed with a red devil and has a large nuchal hump... Nasty looking thing!

Are the Corydoras people as passionate about longfin Corys and other aquarium strains?

Catfish Lover wrote:I think I see why there's such passion with the pl*co lovers around this subject of the longfins.

The longfins in themselves really aren't all that bad but they are the first popular mutation and as a result represent the key to Pandora's Box of having "parrot" pl*cos.

Alan, you've pretty much hit the nail on the head. Benign as the long finned Ancistrus seems, it is just the tip of the iceberg in terms of what could be done to plecos by man to "improve" them. A good example of disgusting man made catfish are the large numbers of Synodontis hybrids being churned out in Eastern Europe. Do we want the same happening with plecos?

Rusty