Otocinclus Breeding

[bronzefry]

Do you ever find them munching on the duckweed? I know it's a pest of a weed in a planted tank. I'm not sure if it's the duckweed or what gets trapped in the duckweed. I'd be interested in your experience.
Thanks,
Amanda

[James0816]

I have seen the occassional grazing of the undersides from the fry, but that has been all. It's just nuisance as it grows fairly quick and will kill the lighting.

[James0816]

I am down to (2) fry in the main tank . Decided to a major scaping yesterday. Had to thin the crypt jungle again. This time I removed the mother plants of the Wendtii and Retrospiralis. Also removed 4 of the larger Retros and 2 Wendtii's. Did 30% water change while doing a good vac of the substrate. Moved (2) juvies over to the Juvie tank. Moved over a green crypt from another tank. Have to work on the Ludwigia area and that should do things for awhile. Will have to trim the Suesswassertang at some point as well.

[MatsP]

James,

Sorry to hear that your fry survival isn't that great. I have the same problem with Sturisoma.

And to everyone else: I've added some of James' pictures to the Cat-eLog under

Otocinclus vittatus

.

--
Mats

[davidkozak]

Congratulations on the successful spawns! Take lots of pictures and post often, please. David

[James0816]

Thx...the survival part is now my focus. I've had one really good one where I had near 80%. That's where the majority of the juvies came from. For the most part, it's been a few here and there. I'll keep working on it.

[bronzefry]

As I've found with Farlowella species, that's the hard part. Please let us know how you do, mate!
Amanda

[James0816]

Eggs found! Came in to finish the scape with the Ludwigia and Downoi and found a bunch of eggs. Excellent! Hopefully this is a good sign that mama still feels comfortable with the environs after the change. Current count is (41). Cannot determine at this time if any are not viable however, there are a couple that I suspect of at this time.

Didn't look like too many in the crypt jungle this time which is understandable. Majority appear to be in the Ludwigia and Bacopa areas. I'll get better counts later.

Found one stem of L. Arcuata with at least (14) on it. Have made the decision to move this stem over to the test tank. Getting ready to test that water to try and match parms closely. <crosses fingers>

Also found (4) on the drop checker. lol

Working on some pics now.

[James0816]

Final check of the eve yields (57). One egg has already been deemed unviable. There are a few that I am watching as suspect. We should know by tomorrow.

Now we'll see how the Tiger shrimp do with eggs in the tank. Hopefully they won't bother any good eggs.

Removed the stem of L. Acuata and placed it in the test tank. Counted (15) eggs on this stem. Water parms of test tank:

Temp: 75 - Turned it up a smidge.
NH3 - 0
NO2 - 0
NO3 - 10
GH - 4
KH - 3
TDS - 105

Airstone turned on for the eve. Prepping zucchini for all tanks.

Here are some shots from today:

I am watching these two closely. I believe the one on the right is not viable. Notice the color difference.


One of mama's favorite spots...the Bacopa:


Does yellow mean preggers...or is it the plus sign?

[MatsP]

Best of luck!

--
Mats

[bronzefry]

on the last photo. Good one! At least it's easy to read.
Amanda

[James0816]

Evening check and all seems to be right on track in both tanks. Found (2) non viable eggs in each tank. Much better results than recent batches.

Hatching will be soon. As I was snapping pics...I could see them move around in the eggs. Pretty kewl.

Some shots from today:
Egg shot shows one non-viable egg and development of others:


A shot of the beautiful lady:


And here is their current home. Since it will be a spell before I can finish it, figured I'd get a current shot of it up.

[James0816]

Hatching today.

Main tank: Was able to locate 11 wigglers around the tank. Mama also laid some more eggs today. Will try a get a count before the lights go out.

Test tank: Was able to locate 6 wigglers in this tank.

Prepping fresh zucchini to add to the tanks.

I'll leave you with this shot. This is one of the wee ones that hatched today:

[James0816]

Final update on the eve. Counted (59) more eggs. (2) were already non viable. I believe there will be several more tomorrow. Some looked like they are a little fuzzy. We'll see.

[andywoolloo]

Gosh, it is just fantastic that you capture it on camera so well. incredible. Really good job with them!

I have otos in my 50 gal with sterbai corys and L066's. The cory have fry and the otos have increased in number with all various sizes so I know they are pro creating I just do not have good enough eyesight to spot those eggs or wee babies. I only notice them when there are more and some are about less than an inch.

I really love seeing the story unfold from egg to fry, thank you very much for doing that.

[James0816]

Weekend check:

Main tank: Was able to spot (18) wigglers. As expected, a good amount of eggs from the second batch were bad. Everything seems to be doing ok so far.

Test tank: Was able to spot (5) wigglers in here. Little ones have found the zucchini in the tank. That's a good sign. I have another thought to try out on the next batch I move over here to see if I can increase the numbers.

Prepping water for topping off the tanks.

Here's a shot from today. This little guy is in the test tank.

[bronzefry]

The yolk sac is so far forward upon hatching!
Amanda

[James0816]

Daily check and all is well. Numbers remain good. On the plus side, I can add one to the test tank. This now brings the total to (7) confirmed in this tank. Starting to color up nicely.

The little ones in the test tank are doing good with the zucchini. Ground up more flakes into a fine powder and added to both.

On a side note, over in the second breeder tank some of the CRS shrimp have hatched. I have a nice batch of CRS/CBS shrimplets roaming around.

[James0816]

Been a few inquires regarding this so I thought I would add this to the journal to date. Keep in mind though, that with these little guys, there are no guarantees. My second breeder has yet produce a spawn but tons of activity. I have a couple of things to tweak on it yet which I believe may be the difference. There are so many variables I have yet to try but do not want to mess with the formula very much at all at this time.

With that said, here's my advice from what I have learned so far:

- Tank should be ~ 10 gallons. I wouldn't do anything larger. Moderate lighting w/ 10hr photo period.
- Species only. No other fish should be in the tank with them. Inverts are fine and actually I would recommend 1-2 Briggs snails.
- Lots of natural plants. What I have learned is that plants with wider leaves is the choice of the females to lay her eggs. Bacopa Monnieri, Crypt Wendtii, Ludwigia Repens, Repens x. Arcuata have seemed to produce the best spots. I have included other plants (past and present) but they seem to be more for visual fillers than anything else.
- Start with one pair (male and female of course ). The idea behind this logic is you have to get them to be "comfortable" in their environment first with minimal distractions. Too many at once could be classified as a distraction.
- Water parameters. Here's where it is the toughest. I have tried many combinations of things to affect the parms and still received the same results. So it is very inconclusive with me to say that the parms play a major role. Still much to be learned here as well. I keep mine steady at the following levels:
Temp: 78 PH: 7.4 NO3: 40 NO2: 0 NH3: 0 GH: 9 KH: 6 (last two parms are averages of prior test results)
I have fairly recently added TDS and inside room parms such as Temp, Humidity and Barometric pressure to the mix.

We have well water where I live and our PH is very low out of the tap. I keep 1/4 cup of crushed coral in the filter to buffer the water.

I'm also injecting DIY CO2 for the plants. During my experimentations, I have ran the CO2 pretty high to where the drop checker was border line yellow, I have stopped the CO2 all together and most recently, ran an airstone full time while the CO2 is still being introduced into the tank. This all has effects on the water parms and still produced good spawns. I have actually just reverted back to some earlier testing methods of running the air only at night.

- Water changes. My normal routine is 10%/wk. However, when I notice the water quality straying (as noted by high TDS readings), I will do a pretty good gravel vac which sometimes leads to a 30% wc.

The primary focus for me now while maintaining good spawns is getting a better survival rate of the fry. This has proved to be very tricky. I have even set up a test tank to move eggs over. To date, I'm still not getting numbers I would like to see. I'm shooting for 50% at the moment. That still might be a bit high but believe it to be achievable.

I hope this information helps others out. As always, if you have any questions, please feel free to contact me.

[James0816]

Little ones in the main tank continue to grow. I was able to visibily spot (11) fry today in the main tank. Little guys remain active which is a good sign <knocks on wood>.

Over in the test tank...only spotted one. I didn't give it a good once over so hopefully there are more.

Zucchini not lasting long in any of the tanks. Prepping more.

[James0816]

Evening check of the tanks. Mama is laying more eggs. Counted (35) at the moment. One was non viable and has been removed. Found several fry still in the main. Keeping fingers crossed.

Over in the test tank, only located (1) fry still. Very dissapointed with this. Have to decide if I should keep trying or now. At the moment, mama has laid many eggs on a single stem so may not transfer any over this go around. She will probably lay more this evening so we'll see.

Here's a shot of a group of eggs from today:

[davidkozak]

Well done-and very generous of you to share all of your tank parameters and observations..David

[andywoolloo]

love this thread, truly awesome! And thanks for all your info James

[Mike_Noren]

Am I reading this correct that you get lots of eggs & larvae, but can't get the larvae to survive to adulthood?

[MatsP]

Am I reading this correct that you get lots of eggs & larvae, but can't get the larvae to survive to adulthood?

That is what I've understood too.

I don't think this is an entirely unusual situation. In the wild, there is probably much more natural food available. As to WHAT food that is, I'm not sure - it's clearly some form of "aufwuchs" ("surface growth"), but whether it's soft algae or some other "stuff", I'm not sure.

Edit: It certainly resembles my experience with Sturisoma - I know Larry doesn't agree that the fry don't move for food, but I have tried various types of food, and until they are several weeks old, they don't actually "go hunting" for food.

--
Mats

[Mike_Noren]

In the wild, there is probably much more natural food available. As to WHAT food that is, I'm not sure

Otocinclus (and quite possibly Sturisoma, I do not know) are primarily diatom eaters, and the larvae may have difficulty eating or digesting vegetables.
My suggestion would be to try a sinking feed with a particle size of 50-100 microns. Culturing diatoms is annoyingly difficult, but it's possible any phytoplankton or phytoplankton replacement feed might work, maybe even old stand-by's like green water or brewer's yeast.

[James0816]

Raising the fry has been difficult I must say. I have had a couple batches where I've had pretty good success. Currently have a little over 50 juvies in their own tank at the moment.

As for feeding, there is good algae in the tank. I also take some of the Ken's Veggie Flakes and finely grind them up to a nice powder. Using the flow of the HOB and occassionally the air stone (when it's on), I add the powder directly to the current to get it dispersed.

The diatoms was my first thought. I have established another tank (my test tank) for just that reason. Have excellent diatom growth in here as I am using silica pool filter sand as a substrate in here. Haven't had much luck with this either. I've had one test group of about (10) fry in this tank doing good until we had a power failure which was out for two days. Lost all but one. The tank hasn't been the same since even though the diatom growth is doing well.

I'm thinking on lighting for my next round of testing. If mama lays a good number of eggs on a couple of stems, I'll transfer them over to the test tank and reduce the lighting for a few days and see what happens.

The fry will eat blanched veggies...or at least zucchini as that's the only one I feed. I slice them in 1/4" pieces. Bring a pan of water to a rolling boil. Add the zucchini and let them roll for no more than 3 minutes. Then freeze. Thaw out what you want to add to tanks. They will sink and stay there usually for a few days. Repeat this as soon as what remains floats to the top.

Also thinking about infusoria too. Been researching that as well. Will have to consider it.

[Mike_Noren]

there is good algae in the tank.

It's pretty much guaranteed the larvae wont be able to eat it.

I also take some of the Ken's Veggie Flakes and finely grind them up to a nice powder.

That, on the other hand, should work.

Have excellent diatom growth in here as I am using silica pool filter sand as a substrate in here.

Have you checked that it's actually diatoms and not, say, cyanobacteria? Diatoms are fickle things, I've tried to culture diatoms many times and never had consistent success.

Also thinking about infusoria too.

Unlikely, IMO, though I suppose it can't hurt. I think you'd have better chance of success with something like...
http://www.dtplankton.com/phytoplankton.html
...or...
http://www.brineshrimpdirect.com/other- ... -c149.html

Other things to try could be to concentrate the larvae using, say, the type of floating cages intended for livebearers, to make it easier for them to find the food (and easier for you to clean/maintain water quality).

[James0816]

It is definately diatoms. Water conditions remain excellent.

I do like the idea of a smaller tank. May have to just try this or at least come up with something similar.

As for feeding the fry guys...I am looking at similar methods for plecs or cories. Try to piggy back off of that and see what may transpire.

[James0816]

No further eggs were laid last night. The final tally looks to be (40) with (4) being non-viable. Hatching will begin tonight/early morning.

I'm going to try a different feeding method. I'll still feed as normal like I have been doing:
blanched zucchini
a few veggie flakes and sticks for the big guys
ground up flakes for wee ones (I just used my fingertips to do this)
and now adding ground up flakes using a mortar and pestal (this is to make an even finer powder)

This will allow for (3) varying coarses of food. Just a thought.

I will be looking to get a smaller tank ~ 5g for a new test tank for fry development.