PlanetCatfish.com

I visit and post on the Singapore based fish forum, http://www.aquaticquotient.com and there has never been any indication that the Zebras are cheap, common or being bred in mass quantities. My perception has been that their situation is the same as those across the rest of the fish keeping world. They count every fry raised as an accomplishment. The level of interest and the number of members who are trying to breed them are probably very similar to those elsewhere.

There are some really good fish photographers on that forum. There seems to be an unwritten but long standing contest to see who can take the best photos. Some of the Apistogramma spp.' photos have to be seen to be believed.

Wow, I really like this whole thread and am quite happy that it is open dialogue between two differences of opinion. I tell anyone that wants to buy zebras from me that they need to be in a species only tank, as they are quite a specialized fish. I would not sell just one fish to someone unless I knew they had an existing group they were adding to. Most of us pleco freaks in the U.S. are quite serious about spawning our plecs, all of mine are in species only tanks. Hopefully we can come to a solution to the problems that Brazil has with their wildlife (better regulations, the Belo Monte dam.) I know that a member (Janne, I think) is in Brazil, I would be very interested to see what his take is on the current situation in Brazil. Again this is a very good thread!

Yes, they are not that challenging to spawn. The trouble is they spawn in small numbers. Just like my 340's easy to keep easy to spawn, very small hatches. Thus the need to import them to serious hobbyists while we can. And the same can be said for any pleco that people enjoy. get them while you can. The first person I ever visited that was breeding plecos had 50 - 60 zebra fry, and that was just from 2 pair. There were 2 plus inchers all the way down to fry. I got an education that day on how easy it is to spawn the zebra. The second guy i had the chance to see his fish room, had 3 pairs of zebras. he was pushing fry out like a mcdonalds drive through. Small fish take alot less conditioning to spawn, so the turn around can be very quick. now just because the people I've met here in Iowa can do this dosen't mean you can, so I guess maybe we're just more fortunate or something than yourself tta. But let's be realistic here and say that you could only raise 50 fry per year per pair to saleable size. how many breeders of zebras do you think there are and how many have multiple pairs of fish? Then take into account that the f1's have been available long enough that they are coming into the breeding programs too. F1 fish in my experience breed easier than wilds, so there's a jump in production too. Now, you expect everyone to believe, that the price over $100 each wild is not too expensive. Or that $200 each for unsexed f1's isn't also too expensive? I think that's just silly, but now I'm sure you're feathers are ruffled up cause you're probably heavily invested in zebras thinking of counting all the money when you sell the fry. So I'll just say this, breeding plecos is supposed to be a fun and interesting hobby. Not something you get rich off of, and definitely not something to get mad about. It also needs to be affordable so that more than just the niche crowd can be involved. You can't expect only us serious hobbyists to be the only market. There are a ton of people out there who only want to keep fish to enjoy them, and as a breeder you have the opportunity to make it affordable for them, while moving the hobby forward too. with every new person who gets a fancy pleco to put into their community tank it goes forward. Most of the people I find in this kind of situation have never even seen 10 percent of these cool fish. And when they do see them, they become excited, almost as much as me when I find a pleco with eggs. And 8 times out of ten they come back for another that caught their eye.

mjlfish wrote:Well Jools, Saul only sells a minimum of 5 fish at a time, so......

<sarcastic>And of course, Saul is only selling to individiuals, not shops, and those individuals have to sign a paper not to split the order with their friends?</sarcastic>

And I think Jools was referring not to Saul's business, but a general concern that these fish are STILL being bought for "showpiece" qualities, not as part of a breeding group.

And to whoever said "these are hard to breed", it appears that a lot of people either have an enormous amount of money, or they aren't that hard to breed. I looked through the first 15 entries in the registered My Cats of H. zebra. The numbers kept are generally either 1, 3 or around 30-40. Now, I don't really believe that several people in the first 15 would buy 30-40 fish... Unfortunately, it's hard work to look at all, and there is no real indication of "I have bred this species" in the "My cats" [I know Jools is working on that, but it's not there right now]. I think the largest hindrance in getting these to breed is the fact that many people can not affort buying a group of them - and it requires at least two mature fish of opposite sex to breed them.

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Mats

Wait, where did Saul go to on vacation? Brazil? If he took them out of Brazil, that would be illegal. If he went to someplace like Japan and brought them into the U.S. then I would say he didn't break the law. Assuming the fish obtained in Japan were not smuggled in from Brazil.

plecoboy wrote:Wait, where did Saul go to on vacation? Brazil? If he took them out of Brazil, that would be illegal. If he went to someplace like Japan and brought them into the U.S. then I would say he didn't break the law. Assuming the fish obtained in Japan were not smuggled in from Brazil.

Once some enterprising folks get them across the Brazilian border into Peru, Venezuela or Colombia they become just another fish legally speaking. One can hardly make a cogent argument that it would somehow be less ethically adverse if the fish were shipped from a Japanese based operation instead of a Latin American one. The buyers outside of the source country doesn't and really, in anything like this, need or want to know who or what organization is actually accomplishing the initial collection and smuggling operations. Few smugglers limit themselves to only one kind of contraband and a few small black and white fish are low risk commodity as contraband goes. No long prison sentences etc. Smuggling is a high art form in Latin America; a fish certainly doesn't challenge the necessary skill sets much. Once available, the fish will find willing buyers. It doesn't matter who.

I never said they were difficult to spawn. All I said is there are not oodles of folks who are doing so. It used to be very hard to buy adult zebras and almost impossible to find proven breeders. With last years influx of illegally collected wild zebras this changed in terms of finding larger fish. What has not changed is it is still not so easy to buy TR fish.

I have been very lucky with mine and have managed to get a lot of spawns and fry over the years. But no matter how many I get, the demand continues to exceed that. And most of the other folks breeding them are in a similar situation.

mjlfish wrote:Yes, they are not that challenging to spawn. The trouble is they spawn in small numbers. Just like my 340's easy to keep easy to spawn, very small hatches. Thus the need to import them to serious hobbyists while we can. And the same can be said for any pl*co that people enjoy. get them while you can. The first person I ever visited that was breeding plecos had 50 - 60 zebra fry, and that was just from 2 pair. There were 2 plus inchers all the way down to fry. I got an education that day on how easy it is to spawn the zebra. The second guy i had the chance to see his fish room, had 3 pairs of zebras. he was pushing fry out like a mcdonalds drive through. Small fish take alot less conditioning to spawn, so the turn around can be very quick. now just because the people I've met here in Iowa can do this dosen't mean you can, so I guess maybe we're just more fortunate or something than yourself tta. But let's be realistic here and say that you could only raise 50 fry per year per pair to saleable size. how many breeders of zebras do you think there are and how many have multiple pairs of fish? Then take into account that the f1's have been available long enough that they are coming into the breeding programs too. F1 fish in my experience breed easier than wilds, so there's a jump in production too. Now, you expect everyone to believe, that the price over $100 each wild is not too expensive. Or that $200 each for unsexed f1's isn't also too expensive? I think that's just silly, but now I'm sure you're feathers are ruffled up cause you're probably heavily invested in zebras thinking of counting all the money when you sell the fry. So I'll just say this, breeding plecos is supposed to be a fun and interesting hobby. Not something you get rich off of, and definitely not something to get mad about. It also needs to be affordable so that more than just the niche crowd can be involved. You can't expect only us serious hobbyists to be the only market. There are a ton of people out there who only want to keep fish to enjoy them, and as a breeder you have the opportunity to make it affordable for them, while moving the hobby forward too. with every new person who gets a fancy pl*co to put into their community tank it goes forward. Most of the people I find in this kind of situation have never even seen 10 percent of these cool fish. And when they do see them, they become excited, almost as much as me when I find a pl*co with eggs. And 8 times out of ten they come back for another that caught their eye.

well said.. I CAN SPIT OFF SEVERAL MEMBERS who do sell zebras and you know what,, they only grow 134's 46's and guess what 236's and 173's you know why= rare and very expensive to buy so therefore they breed them JUST FOR THE MONEY NOT THE HOBBY. sorry if i ofend anyone, but dont sit here and lie and say its not about the money, if it wasnt then you wouldnt sell them for 150 each or more. I see plenty of folks in the UK selling for 75-100 bucks a pop for incher f1's. if this isnt truw ill be more than glad to pull forum posts showing them off PF. BACK A YEAR AGO!..... i see people buy groups of 134's and then get all upset when they dont "EARN THEIR KEEP "..hmpph so this means unless you making something off them they mean nothing to you.. im sure alot of people this hit home to them, but its the damn truth and ive kept my mouth shut until now, there is alot of people out there who only breed "OR TRY TO" rare species and they make their living off it if not, they think they can or will, but it wont work out, look at imer if he has sold anything its been in person, he hasnt sold anything on AB in 2 years and i believe half the auctions he sold were rigged by usernames he created, i believe its comming a time in the world, that people will begin to stop paying rediculous prices for fish, its truly pathetic charging these prices, i understand charging something, but not 150-200 bucks for 4 or 5 fry, no it dont cost that much for their keep, if its that big of a problem then quit keeping them, ive yet to sell any of my fry, i got gobs of them. and i can honestly say it doesnt cost anything like half the people on here says it does, if it does, then im sorry but you are obviously overkill, my fish are fine and healthy, if not they would die .. thanks, im sure ive pissed a few off, but its the honest damn truth, some guy posts zebras up for 100 bucks, and all the get rich quick schemers out here crys wolf.

apistomaster wrote: Once some enterprising folks get them across the Brazilian border into Peru, Venezuela or Colombia they become just another fish legally speaking.

Larry,

You've avoided answering my question above, a clear view of your source data would be useful and allow us to deal in facts.

On the subject of facts, the law I was referring to here is the US Lacey Act. This is a federal statute which prohibits interstate wildlife trade in violation of State laws and laws of other countries. The Lacey Act, passed in 1900, is one of the United States’ primary tools for prohibiting interstate and international trafficking in protected wildlife species. The Act is enforced primarily by the Fish and Wildlife Service, the Department of Agriculture’s Animal Plant Health Inspection Service (APHIS), and U.S. customs. The Lacey Act's clear prohibitions and strong penalties have long caused legal experts to consider it “a potent weapon in the fight against widespread and highly profitable illegal wildlife traffic.”

There are two components to a violation of the Lacey Act. First, a species must be taken, harvested, possessed, transported, sold, or exported in violation of a relevant underlying law in any foreign country or the United States. This constitutes illegal sourcing. Second, a person or company must trade this illegally sourced specimen in U.S. interstate or foreign commerce—in the act’s words, one must “import,export, transport, sell, receive, acquire, or purchase.” It is only this second transaction that triggers a violation of the Lacey Act.
The Lacey Act does not impose U.S. law on other countries. “Illegally sourced” is defined by the content of a sovereign nation’s own laws.

So, if a species is protected in its country of origin, then its illegal sourcing and importation into the US is illegal.

Below is a link to some information on the Lacey Act. The focus here is on the amendment that allowed for illegally sourced timber to be considered illegal on entry into the USA. There was an amendment to the Lacey Act in 2008 to clarify this point hence the focus on plants.

http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/trade/trade_ ... ey_act.xml

more generally:

http://www.illegal-fishing.info/sub_app ... tegory_id=






Jools

Hi Jools,
If the Lacey Act is applicable to importing Hypancistrus spp Brazil has decided should not be exported then I would think the fish would have to be on the list wild life customs inspectors must use to decide whether or not to allow the fish to pass through customs or not.
There are more than one importers of wild H. zebra in the USA and it appears that that US Customs agents do not have any basis for taking any action.
I do not know what the reasons are. I already said that I wondered if it has something to do with the language used in Brazil's administrative rulings which do not make the fish eligible for the application of the applicable US Law (Lacey Act?). H. zebra are a very easily identified species so I doubt if they were on the list the agents use that they would make so many mistakes and let all the shipments through.
You are welcome to ask the US Customs about it. It isn't my job to be their spokesperson. If I put on my amateur lawyer's hat I am sure I could argue this issue either way. But I am not unbiased and I don't really care what the law is until I have a better reason for doing so I am not prepared to not avail myself to wild Zebra until no one else can. I am not going to pretend that this issue is not questionable.
It is what it is until some changes occur that take away my options.
I don't know of any effort Brazil is taking to preserve this and other fishes which will suffer from the changes a hydroelectric dam will cause to the Rio Xingu system. And as long as the fish do pass through US Customs without any problems then I consider that to be sufficient evidence that the fish have been legally imported.
Under the US system, if the environmental impact studies that must be done for similar projects determine it will cost a population of a rare species then some action plan to save or mitigate the impact of the project will have on species must be approved and implemented. If national security depends on the project this procedure can be over ridden. I am not aware of a Brazilian equivalent.

PlecO,
I am not breeding zebra plecos but I do raise some others. If you think raising fish is actually profitable as a business then you are mistaken.
The time and expenses are never fully recovered when raising tropical fish for the sale to other hobbyists. Why should any one sell the few fish they manage to raise for less than a diminishing supply of wild specimens of equivalent size? This isn't a socialist system of economics in the USA. It is a capitalistic system of supply and demand. I have had a transaction with you have I not? Did you feel somehow you did not get a fair deal? I do remember our phone and e-mail conversations and that you expressed your hopes that you would make some money raising plecos. Pretty hard to have this not cut both ways.
If one has the ability to raise a certain group of species why on earth would one want to raise those of least value except for personal pleasure? If one can raise a more valuable species and enjoys the same rewards of accomplishment and defrays some of their expenses there isn't anything wrong with that. I raise Corydoras hastatus for the fun of it and I raise some plecos for both fun and money.
Things don't always go right and breeders have setbacks. It costs a lot in utilities, food, equipment and time to raise fish. The fact is that these plecos are relatively easy not easy to raise. If they were easy then everyone would be breeding them and they would not be expensive.

MatsP wrote:
But this doesn't change the fact that the Brazil government has put these fish on the list of "not to be exported", whether that is for a good reason or not, it is the Brazillian law. Imagine you live in Texas, and the US government puts a restriction on exporting blue-bonnet flowers. Now, imagine that gangs come in and starts harvesting these blue-bonnets. And selling them in Brazil - where buying and selling blue-bonnets is a perfectly legal thing... Would you think that is OK, simply because blue-bonnets aren't going extinct? Or would you think that gangs should respect the law in your country?

Two wrongs doesn't make a right!

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Mats

This is the important point to me. We are often high and almighty about other nation's laws because we feel we know what is best. I am often guilty of this as much as the next fellow. I rationalize or intellectualize the situation to justify it to myself, but you nailed it Mats.

apistomaster wrote:You are welcome to ask the US Customs about it.

Who do you think I checked this with before posting? Topic locked.

Jools