PlanetCatfish.com

MatsP wrote:Nice set of new fishes. The Baryancistrus in the first picture looks really nice. Expensive?

I got them from my supplier (Charles on here) who belongs to a local fish forum with me (BCAquaria.com) and he brings in a lot of fish for reasonable prices for local enthusiasts.

Flyfisher wrote:Great purchase! L200 are one of my fave looking plecs. The one in the second pic is a
stunner! Is that a high fin version of this fish? And was it labelled and priced accordingly? From what I've read, these fish vary so much in colour, but I'm not sure how much they colour up As they reach a certain size, but hopefully you'll notice a colour change more relating to acclimatising to their new home soon anyway. As you're probably aware these and L128 seem to be thought of as the same breed, where colour difference comes from whereabouts on the river system they originally came from. Blues from northern and colder water, yellowy greens from southern warmer water. All inbetween offers us just about every shade of yellow/green/blue available. I'm intersted to hear how these fish settle in and how they behave compared to your other plecs.
Once again, great photos!
I checked out that tank build and yes that's exactly what I'd had in mind for rockwork. I was even more impressed with his caves and his twigs coming in from above. Very cool and imaginitive set up!

Yes, the fish were labeled and priced accordingly, since I didn't get it from the LFS. They do vary a lot in colour. They look emerald green to yellowish lime, with the Baryancistrus being more yellow.

Thanks for the extra info about them and the L128, as I knew some people think they are the same, but didn't know what the reasoning was. I'll be sure to keep and post a thread on this setup. Maybe even set up a journal on this 125 as it progresses from a cichlid tank to a catfish tank.

That's the embarassing part of my setup. It started as a cichlid tank, and the cichlids (except my 2 electric blue Jack Dempseys) outgrew the caves quickly, and fortunately for me, turned out to be perfect for the catfish.

The L128 vs L200 (not-high-fin) is indeed considered closely related. This means that if you have females of one with males of the other, you may get hybrid "inbetweens" - even if they are actually the same species, I would make very sure that they are all from the same place, and not mix different variants.

--
Mats

Thanks Mats. It's my hope to get another 75 gallon showcase tank for the L128's eventually. At this point, I'm not experienced enough to breed anything. So hopefully, before they get sexually mature, I'll have something else to house the separate species. If not, I guess I'll have to part with one or the other.

You can part with them into my tank. Very nice fish

Patrick

Don't feel pressure to seperate these two supposedly different fish. If what folk say is true, there'll be a a point in the Orinoco or wherever else river system that they will co inhabit. And if what we read is true, then in this area it will be so hard to tell them apart that it won't be cross breeding, it will intact be just breeding.
If you like both fish you should keep both fish. The chances are they ll never breed together, and if they did, then do nothing about it and what happens in nature will happen in your tank, the fry will either die or be eaten.
I once saw a black Labrador breed with a golden Labrador and ....... Come on guys

Flyfisher wrote:Don't feel pressure to seperate these two supposedly different fish. If what folk say is true, there'll be a a point in the Orinoco or wherever else river system that they will co inhabit. And if what we read is true, then in this area it will be so hard to tell them apart that it won't be cross breeding, it will intact be just breeding.

Well, they are quite possibly genetically closely related, and the scientists will perhaps classify them as the same (I spoke to Mark Sabaj at the CSG Conference, he is one of the authors of the description of and - he wasn't even aware of the L128 variant).

They certainly come from the same river system, but and say, , also comes from close together places in the same river - are you saying that breeding those too will be OK, because they can breed and are from not so far apart.

L128 is perhaps the same species as , but if we breed any form with another form, we'll most likely end up with some halfbreed mongrel fish. Not what we want.

I completely agree that there are fish that vary in colour from green to very dark inky black colour. But that doesn't give the right to mix and match the parents as you like.

If you like both fish you should keep both fish. The chances are they ll never breed together, and if they did, then do nothing about it and what happens in nature will happen in your tank, the fry will either die or be eaten.

By all means, keep both in the same tank if you like. But unless you SEE the spawning and the male and female are the same form [and you're sure no other female got in there], any fry from any form of these fish would have to be destroyed, because there is nothing to say that they may look like the male, but further crossing may show up different traits.

I once saw a black Labrador breed with a golden Labrador and ....... Come on guys

Golden and black labradors are indeed the same species, Canis lupus familiaris, there is absolutely no doubt that they are NOT the same species. However, if you want to register that dog with the local "Labrador purebreed association" or whatever it may be called, they would say "Well, you should have the same colour parents to call it a purebreed", I bet. But for someone just selling the puppies in the local paper, fine.

We want pure-breed fish, not mongrel fish.

--
Mats

Here's a nicer shot of one of the L128's. Still not the greatest as he's being spooked by some of the cichlids:

Some great photos, and the tank looks great as well!

I guess it's about time I updated this thread a bit.

Have had some changes in the tank. Since my pleco obsession has taken full swing, I have rehomed my Oscar and my Silver Dollars, so now for the big fishes I only have a Chocolate Cichlid, a full grown regular JD and 2 Electric Blue JD's.

I got these L340 (Bought them as L129, but turned out to be L340) a while back:



I would have sent pics for ID, but once they're inside my 125, it's pretty much impossible.

I also got an L190, but the only shot I've been able to get is his belly. He's about 5":



Since the removal of the O and the SD's, I added an L90 and 3 L91's this week:





Sorry the shots aren't great, but the L90 darts in and out for food pretty quickly when I whip the camera out and the L91's stay in the overhangs unless it's totally dark out. I think in a few weeks or a month, I'll be able to get better shots.

love those L91's!!!

Yeah, me too. I was hesitant to get them. There was a good deal on them and the L200's and I originally went there to get the L200's, but ended up taking the L91's away. They're real gems.

Got some nice plecos and great pics there 2wheelsx2, but be careful. It is a big tank, but you have a lot of different plecs in there now.

I found this just does not work out long term.

I had a nice plec community in a big tank a few years back, but even with good water quality, I think the crowding really stresses them out after a while, and I lost a few to a nasty Vorticella infection.

By the way, your dwarf Panaque are not L226, but

Flyfisher wrote:Don't feel pressure to seperate these two supposedly different fish. If what folk say is true, there'll be a a point in the Orinoco or wherever else river system that they will co inhabit. And if what we read is true, then in this area it will be so hard to tell them apart that it won't be cross breeding, it will intact be just breeding.
If you like both fish you should keep both fish. The chances are they ll never breed together, and if they did, then do nothing about it and what happens in nature will happen in your tank, the fry will either die or be eaten.
I once saw a black Labrador breed with a golden Labrador and ....... Come on guys

Sorry, can't agree. This advice is entirely wrong in my opinion. Mats has outline why, but I thought I would support that advice.

We are in no position to say whether L128 is H. subviridis or not. We do not have any hard facts. The fishes are phenotypically different, so should never be bred together, same species or not. Losing original wild phenotype strains of fishes is a sad embarrassment to the hobby, and it has happened far too many times.

Just try to buy a discus that doesn't look like a child has been allowed to colour it in with pencil crayons! With vigilance, this will not happen to loricariids.

By all means keep them together, but if any fry arise, they should be destroyed.

Re: L226, really? what's the difference I should look for? I'm a relative n00b when it comes to plecos, so I'm trying to assimilate as much as I can.

Thanks for the advice about the crowding. I do have long term plans to split out the L200 into a species tank with some non-competing species in that tank. And the L190 and the L90 are not permanent residents. I just like the look of them and wanted to have them for a while. When they get larger (like around the 9" mark, I'm going to sell them back to the guy I got them from.

I'm a bit overzealous at this point and just feeling my way of which species I want to keep long term. I do know I will keep the L128's long term, the L264 and possibly the L091's, but the rest will likely get sold off long term, or moved into other tanks as my wife allows.

As for the breeding, I don't have any plans yet, as I have not even bred common Ancistrus yet, so if breeding happens, I'd be one lucky guy. I don't expect anything to happen until I get a species tank together. I'm thinking a 4 footer (75 gallons or so) for the L200 or L128.

Thanks for the constructive comments. I welcome it all to further my education.

Now that I've looked, I'm even more confused. L226 is described as and L226 as the common, so why are they not the same fish?

L226 is described as Panaque changae and L226 as the common, so why are they not the same fish?

They are the same fish.

It's just a little pet hate of mine when people continue to use the L number when the fish has a perfectly good scientific name. Fair enough when the scientific name is a nightmare to remember or spell ( or ), but I think most people should be able to cope with .

The L number should really be retired from use when the fish is described.

No criticism intended though. Just a joke really. Call them what you like, it's just that I find it easier to remember the scientific names over the L numbers.

I had to look up L226 you see, as I was quite convinced your fish looked like P. changae!

Bwahahaha...fair enough. I can't even spell those other names. I thought I was confusing the fish, as I find they look a bit like L002 and L397. I just find the L numbers each to look up and remember.

2wheels, apologies for this but here goes:-

Racoll, back off a little, come on! You want to quote me and say "this advice is totally wrong" if you read the quote you inserted into your post then read your final advice, you actually backed up exactly the point I was making. 2wheels should not feel pressured to seperate 2 fish just because a few people here think it's morally wrong or not what they would do. Live and let live here. I'm definitely not the first to say the L200 and l128 could be he same species, come out of Your World and read read read, you'll find it suggested elsewhere just as I did.
But the main point of my post was to say, keep them in the same tank and if they did breed and you then do nothing to help it, and let nature take it's course in the tank then the young will not survive.
You said almost exactly that!
And while I'm on, why cause confusion by saying the L226 is not an L226. It bloody is! And in the end after causing confusion and probably 2wheels doing unnecessary researching you admit, oops this L number and this scientific name are the same fish. Remember, before this fish got it's scientific name which means little or nothing to most English speaking fishkeeper it had a very easy to remeber and distinguish title L226. There's nothing wrong with using that number now. Absolutely nothing!

2wheels, sorry again to sound off but there's too many people who can't wait to tell you what were doing or saying wrong. Stick around on this and any other fishkeeping forum and it's easy to work out the ones you enjoy advice from and the ones who just love to stir it up.

Crack on with your lovely tank of fish mate

Cheers.

Flyfisher wrote:I'm definitely not the first to say the L200 and l128 could be he same species

No, I think the Cat-eLog page has said that a lot longer than you've been a member here, for example.

However, it is not about them being the same or a different species - it is about keeping blood-lines clean. That _IS_ important.

I do agree, there is no urgency to split the fish up - they aren't exactly the easiest fish to breed and the first spawn probably won't be a blinding success anyways, so I suspect there won't be a flood of "L128 x L200" out there anyways.

But we really should make it clear that just because something MAY be the same species, doesn't make it a good idea to breed the two. The same applies to other very variable species that have different looks - don't mix them up, because that will just end up with a mess. This is VERY important for the future captive breeding of these fishes.

--
Mats

Mats
I have no issue with you at all. We have discussed this and other things in the past and on each occasion I've valued and been thankful for a knowledgeable and more experienced person than I to talk to.

I just feel that it's wrong to urge people to do something that has such a minor chance of anything bad happening, and yet has all the potential of pleasing the individual in watching the fish of their choice inhabit together in their tank. I still think if it could happen in the tank, then there's a good chance it's already happening in nature, and maybe in this case where these 2 fish live there's lots of it going on but we'd never know because the collection points of both species are so far apart. The amazon, it's enormous! So whether we like it or not, cross breeding must occasionally occurr.
Anyway that wasn't my point. My point was " back off and let the guy enjoy his fish Racoll!

Enough said, surely.

Cheers

Gavin

Great new plecos.I just love wood eating plecos.

As far as cross breeding pleco's why is it so bad?Do any of you keep rays because i think the hybrids look the best?Its not like the hybrids will be dumped back into the wild?Someone used discus as an example and i disagree.I think hybrid discus are great!is it not just a personal preference whether you like "bright colored discus" or "dull wild discus".Don't get me wrong i am not attempting to cross any plecos but if it did happen i do not see myself killing the young.

Ok, this is one of those that crop up now and again. Hybrids are definitely bad because they are not the natural variant - and I'm of the opinion that even if the fish are variants of the same species, they should not be mixed in breeding effort.

Discus are probably actually the same species, but "hybrids" of different captive bred forms (e.g. pigeon blood x turkish blue or whatever they are called). In which case, I have much less of an issue with it - but I actually prefer the natural colours. The captive bred forms are often so different that only the shape tells you that it's (probably) the same species as the wild species. And with Discus there are only some three or so wild species - we have 700 +/- some plecos that may get mixed in all sorts of different ways.

Rays, I'm sure SHOULD not be mixed up either...

--
Mats

nice collection you got going there, wheels!

Well, with rays you'll even find hybrids in the wild. And yes, as is the case with Synos, the hybrids sometimes are very nice looking fish.

But even with different bred colorforms of, say, discus or guppy, mixing them is not such a good idea. You will basically loose variablility. So instead of having yellow, red and blue fish you'll end up with a bunch of unattractive brown ones.

You start with two different pools of genes. These fish have evolved over time and are reasonably similar (some more, some less). If you mix them there's no knowing what you will get. And you will never be able to get those two separate species back. One major problem are "camouflaged" hybrids. They might look like a genuine species and are probably sold as such. That they are not will probably become obvious when looking at their fry. But it'll be too late by then. If you ever tried to get a genuine red lizzard cat you'll know what I mean.

And if you mix two separate species the offspring might actually be sterile.

In the case of L200 and L128 you could keep them together, just don't let any fry survive. But the chances of that happening are pretty small indeed. From a biologist's point of view it would actually be very interesting to know whether those two can hybridize. But that's a "kids, don't try this at home"-thing.

Thanks all for the opinions. I'm going to have access to some more so once I get those, I'll be selling off my 2 L200 as soon as they get bigger. I really enjoy them, but I am not going to get any more because of space and the chance of cross breeding and I really like my L128 much better. So that should make everyone happy.

I like the constructive discussions on PC and I also appreciate the encouragement here, so I don't have a problem at all with these discussions.

2wheels,
well done on being cool about this debate going on in your thread. It seems a few have chipped in on the whole cross breeding issue, but hold on, I heard it was the high fin L200 that was closely related to the L128. Just joking lol

so what makes you prefer the L128 to the L200s you have at the moment? How do they differ in behaviour in your tank?

I do hope you're not worried about the cross breeding minor possibility. If I'm being honest I think shouting that cross breeding in the hobby is a definite no no is nothing more than a matter of opinion and i'm actually somehwere in the middle. I don't want to own a cross breed but I don't think any if us can really say it's for the good of the fish if we keep them from cross breeding. Afterall it's not like any of us are going to be nice enough to take thesefish back to the wild is it.

Cheers

Thanks, flyfisher.

My L128's are much bolder than my L200's. They are more out in the open during feeding and even eat out in full light if the right food (zucchini, earthworm sticks) are in the area. Plus I really like the colouring. I like the L200 too, but I like the L200a and since I'm going to have a space issue in my tank, something has to give. Eventually, I have to move the L128 and the L200a into their own 120 gallon tank to see if I can get them breeding. Currently, it's just a swarm of catfish growing out. It's interesting to look at, but probably has too much competition for them to consider breeding. Removing the Oscar and the Silver Dollars have really helped, as I noticed a marked change in behaviour, even from my L190, which is now occupying a bowl shaped cave in the center of the tank.

As for the crossbreeding, I am not too worried because 1) they are probably at least a year from maturity and 2) I am not setting up anything specific for them to "get busy" so the chance of any fry surviving in that tank whether crossbred or purebred is almost nil.

I hope I didn't appear rude in replying to your post Flyfisher. I apologise for that.

The beauty of forums such as this, is when if you feel someone has given bad advice, they can be challenged.

Flyfisher wrote:If I'm being honest I think shouting that cross breeding in the hobby is a definite no no is nothing more than a matter of opinion

If I'm honest, I will give up the hobby entirely, if all I can get are mongrel and hybrid fishes. Therefore I try to prevent this attitude from spreading. I feel quite strongly about this subject, hence the harsh tone.

Flyfisher wrote:Don't feel pressure to seperate these two supposedly different fish.

MatsP wrote:even if they are actually the same species, I would make very sure that they are all from the same place, and not mix different variants.

I believe Mats suggested not to mix the genes or breeding groups, rather than mix these fishes in the same [non-breeding] tank. So, nobody, including myself, have said they shouldn't be kept in a community together.

However, what I do take issue with Flyfisher, are the biological assumptions you have made about these fishes.

Regarding the L226, as I said, this was a joke, hence the winking smiley. I was trying to gently remind folks that the world shouldn't revolve around L number this, and L number that. They are a necessary evil, but in this case, they are not necessary! I do realise I am in a minority on this one, and people will just carry on using them as the common name.

hotplecogirl wrote:is it not just a personal preference whether you like "bright colored discus" or "dull wild discus"

Yes, I suppose it is, but people who enjoy their fish the way nature intended are very much, again, in the minority, so they generally shout a lot more!

Do you think this wild discus is dull? (pic linked from from Heiko Bleher's Aquapress website)

I think some discus aficionados will find it dull. I personally prefer the wild types myself. I also don't like barebottomed tanks to maximize size by force feeding etc. I like healthy happy fish who are behaving naturally. I don't necessarily advocate all wild types as I like goldfish (don't currently have any) and I have had guppies, angelfish, etc, in the past and there are many interesting ones. But sometimes, keeping fish that appear weird (like blood parrots) for the sake of the oddity is beyond me. Hence my comment that I don't plan on hybridizing anything.

some beautiful fish you have there, 2wheels.

andywoolloo wrote:some beautiful fish you have there, 2wheels.

Thank you. Doing my best.