Help Please!

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 15 Mar 2006, 09:46

A 1 gallon "tank" would not be a good home for any fish bigger than an inch (even that is a bit of a push). The water will not stay good for long (assuming it is at this time - just because it WAS good some time in the past doesn't guarantee it to be so at this time).

I'd recommend that you make a big water change (30-50%), and report the values of thw water tests.

--
Mats

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 15 Mar 2006, 10:27

The story of this bullhead has become a bit disjointed, as it's been split into three different posts.

http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... sc&start=0

http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... ght=#84525

Would it be possible for a moderator to join them?, as it makes it quite hard to give advice when the history is hard to find.

What has happened is that when you moved your tank you added too many fish.

6 medium size goldfish, 8 little feeder goldfish, and 2 irredescent sharks

.

The filter, water and decor that you moved from the 20g would have probably been able to support the bullhead until the new tank had re-cycled, provided you didn't feed it for 2 weeks minimum.

Better still, you should have matured the 55g eight weeks before you moved the bullhead.

Unfortunately all the extra fish (and the bullhead eating them) caused a massive spike in ammonia and nitrite that has caused the illness. The low numbers of bacteria in the new tank were unable to deal with the waste.

I don't know if you fed the new goldfish etc after the new tank was set up?, but this would have made the problem much worse.

There is a strong possibility that these new fish brought the whitespot etc with them. With high levels of ammonia and nitite in the tank, all the fish became much more at risk of disease.

I don't wish to sound negative, but it's good to know where you went wrong, so you don't do the same thing again.

All you can do now is change 25% of the water daily, and add an antibacterial agent such as melafix to the new water pro-rata.

Also stop feeding them until they are all better, and the water tests are OK (ie ammonia/nitrite 0mg/l).

Have they still got the ich?

I also strongly recommend that you get rid of the irridescent sharks as soon as possible, as these NOT suitable fish for an aquarium.

LindaVamp · Post by **LindaVamp** » 15 Mar 2006, 12:07

I'm sorry about the different posts.

I picked up some melafix and the girl at PetSmart told me to pick up some aquarium salt to help with the nitrite levels which were high. She didn't give me the numbers, but it matched the end of the chart. Ammonia is low and Ph is at 7.

What I have done... I removed ALL but the bullhead. The feeders are getting fed to my neighbors turtle. The other 6 gold fish and the irridecents have DIED. There is no need to worry about them anymore.

I treated the tank last night with melafix and added 1/2 of the salt that the girl recommended. (That was prolly a mistake, but hey he's prolly gonna die anyway

)

There is an air stone in there to help move the water around.

Thank you for pointing out where I went wrong, this gives you yet another opportunity to do the same.

Although I know he would have gotten too big for the 20 gallon tank, I think my first mistake was moving him out of it. He was doing JUST fine and now he's not.
I apologise for sounding a bit crabby, but I am very upset about this whole thing.

You don't know how tempted I am to just empty out the tank, clean and start it all over again!

Why not? He made it through the switch to the 20 gallon when he was little, and that was just fresh tap water!

LindaVamp · Post by **LindaVamp** » 15 Mar 2006, 12:43

He was so little!!!!

The reason I first posted!!

In the 2 gallon tank!

Ok, I'm done now. Just wanted to share baby pictures.

If he dies... I will have another one.

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 15 Mar 2006, 13:23

He might not die, they are tough.

I think my first mistake was moving him out of it. He was doing JUST fine and now he's not.

The problem is not the fact THAT you moved him, just HOW you moved him.

I treated the tank last night with melafix and added 1/2 of the salt that the girl recommended. (That was prolly a mistake, but hey he's prolly gonna die anyway

nitrite levels which were high. She didn't give me the numbers, but it matched the end of the chart.

I think adding salt will just become another stress factor. The best way to get rid of the nitrite is with daily 50% water changes (dosed pro-rata with melafix).

I hope he makes it.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 15 Mar 2006, 13:31

Ok, so you have nitrite but no ammonia. That's a good sign that things are moving in the right direction.

I personally wouldn't add salt to a cat-fish tank (unless it was for brackish/saltwater catfish), although it is correct that higher salt content will to some extent help with the nitrite poisioning.

I would also not start over again: It doesn't help anything, you would just start cycling the tank again - which is just like going two steps back when you've taken one forward. It will stress the fish more, and it will make the process of maturing the tank longer.

However, if you ever decide to move the fish again, to another bigger tank, then I would recommend putting some "tester" fish in the new tank, and keep the catfish in the existing tank, until the new tank shows no nitrite or ammonia.

Let's just expand on the way that the "Nitrate cycle" works: Fish give off ammonia, as does food that is left in the tank. The ammonia is VERY poisonous (and irritating) to the fish. There is "good bacteria" that convert ammonia to Nitrite. Nitrite is still poisonous to fish (stops them being able to breathe). There's another type of good bacteria that convert Nitrite to Nitrate. Nitrate is something like 1000x less poisonous to the fish, so it's not so bad - obviously, a huge amount of nitrate isn't good either, but the fish will survive quite a bit.

In maturing a tank, you build up the levels of these good bacteria. To get the bacteria in the first place, there needs to be some ammonia, so leaving a tank running "empty" doesn't work, but adding some small fish to the tank will work just fine. Once the tank is showing nitrate and no nitrite or ammonia, it's ready to start adding more stock - but don't add too many fish at once, because every time you add more fish, the bacteria will need time to grow and adjust to the higher level of waste production.

At this point, I'm still thinking that some daily water changing will be appropriate (to remove some of the nitrite). Getting your own test-kit for nitrite and nnitrate is probably a good idea (but not doing so will get you on a first-name basis will ALL the staff at your LFS, and it may be less expensive depending on the shops fees and cost of test-kit).

--
Mats

MOO · Post by **MOO** » 15 Mar 2006, 15:28

I can have to say that I havn't been able to put the whole picture about your catfish together but I can in fact help you. I have had this exact same problem as you describe. Unfortunately the result was the death of one megladoras and one juruense and a very sick costatus. Sounds bad, well the good news is that the story is also a tale of survival for the other megladoras, a trachycorystes and an adonis.
To cut a story short my catfish suffered the same effect from a tank movement, but these were moved into an established tank with a well established filter (two years). I agree with the others that this is a water quality problem, but the actual lesions I believe to be a bacterial infection. The fish were moved from a 1200l tank to a 500l tank with a few fish that were already in it. They were all fairly small (less that 10") but it was too much loading al at once for the filter to cope with and I suffered water quality problems. I moved my fish as I am in the process of moving house. Any way to stop rambling, does your fishs' fins also have a reddish tint to them? If so then the problem is the same. I carried out 30% water changes daily for appx. 15 days and the problem finaly started to show signs of improveing, this was after the two fish died I am still doing water changes every second day. The fish are all 'cured' now but the lesions have left scaring (white patches) the humbug catfish is the only one still suffering (he is in his own hospital tank now) and improving. I've had him for years now and he's had a few mishaps, he once regrew an eye! The moral of the story is, if you are going to move fish, they don't like it, plan it well ahead and do it in stages. Hope your fish gets beter.

LindaVamp · Post by **LindaVamp** » 15 Mar 2006, 20:52

I think adding salt will just become another stress factor.

OOPS!!! I already added some last night, however I only added 1/2 of what the package said to add. Ummm so now what?

Have added a dose of Melafix last night also.

He might not die, they are tough.

Yeah, that's what I thought. But he's not so tough this time. He started out in a 2 gallon tank with a guppy friend. He was only 3/4 of an inch long when he was caught. We moved him to a 20 gallon tank all by himself. We were even more ignorant then and just threw him in as soon as the tank was full. We didn't even declorinate the water or anything... just plopped him right in and he did fine! I'm thinking it was because he was by himself.

At this point, I'm still thinking that some daily water changing will be appropriate (to remove some of the nitrite).

Can ya recommend a declorinater that is relatively inexpensive? Hubby is getting irritated with the cost of medicines and such. BAH HUMBUG! We would add water right out of the faucet by the gallons when he was in the 20 gallon tank and he did fine, however I'm not sure I want to take that risk with him in the condition that he is in right now. How big of a change should I be doing?

OOOO hubby said "Your fish is out swimming!" Gonna try to get new pics of him.

Stoopit fish won't let me take a picture of him! I have lovely pictures of gravel though. I tried to get shots of his wounds. This would be a whole lot easier to do if he would stay still! He keeps trying to get up higher than the camera!

YouTube · Post by **Jools** » 15 Mar 2006, 21:49

racoll wrote:The story of this bullhead has become a bit disjointed, as it's been split into three different posts.

Would it be possible for a moderator to join them?, as it makes it quite hard to give advice when the history is hard to find.

Done, this takes a fair bit of brainpower, please if you could keep them together in future it would help me.

Jools

LindaVamp · Post by **LindaVamp** » 17 Mar 2006, 01:42

Ok, he's still hanging in there but I wake up in the morning and come home from work expecting to see him floating...

Tonight will be his third dose of Melafix and I can't say he's looking any better. I am also a little confused. Should I be doing water changes while treating with Melafix? The Melafix says to treat daily for 7 days and then do a water change.

Here's a picture that was taken tonight.

He is still eating. We're not feeding him a lot (a few flakes once a day) and when he's finished what we have given him, he still looks for more.

He spends most of his time on the bottom of the tank, but I can't say that is totally out of the norm for him. He spent a lot of time laying around before we moved him. He just didn't look as pathetic as he does now.

He is still coming out when I put my face right up to the tank.

Oh I had forgot to mention something else.
When we set up the new tank, my daughter wanted to put this rubberyish anemone (sp) type thing in the tank. We put it in there and after a while it grew white hairy stuff on it. I took it out, cleaned it off, and put it back in. A few days later it had more white hairy stuff on it so I took it out and haven't put it back. Now I am seeing more of the fine white hairy stuff on some of the rocks in the tank. Not on all of them but a few of them and you really have to look to see it. I washed them very well in hot water before putting them in the tank. They are polished rocks bought from the dollar store. This white hairy stuff is not on any of the plants or the gravel. What is this? Should I remove the rocks? Could this be the reason for his illness?

YouTube · Post by **Jools** » 17 Mar 2006, 08:33

What did you wash the "anenome" with? Any soap or detergent? I'd support the water changes suggestion.

Jools

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 17 Mar 2006, 10:37

This white hairy stuff....Could this be the reason for his illness?

No, the reason for his illness is nitrite poisoning.

We're not feeding him a lot (a few flakes once a day)

You should not be feeding AT ALL!

I am also a little confused. Should I be doing water changes while treating with Melafix?

YES, YES, YES, YES, YES.

Your fish will probably die if you don't.

The melafix will not cure the problem. It is just to stop the bacterial sores getting worse.

This is the best analogy I can think of.....

If your bullhead was a person, he is stuck in a car with the exhaust fumes being piped into the window.

Giving him a paracetamol to treat his headache is what the melafix is doing. The man will die, paracetamol or no paracetamol.

You must treat the cause of the problem, not the symptom, ie you must open the car door, and give him fresh air (change the water).

Ignore the intructions on the melafix, they are for fully cycled tanks with no pollution. You will not dilute the melafix because you should be dosing the new water PRO-RATA.

Change 75% of the water now, and change 25% daily until he is better.

LindaVamp · Post by **LindaVamp** » 17 Mar 2006, 11:41

What did you wash the "anenome" with? Any soap or detergent?

Nothing but hot water.

I will be doing a 75% water change this afternoon, after I get home from work.

I have never used de-chlorinaters before in his tank. Is there a de-chlorinater that is recommended?

Racoll,
Thanks for the analogy, I understand now.

Thank you all, for your help.

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 17 Mar 2006, 12:01

I have never used de-chlorinaters before in his tank. Is there a de-chlorinater that is recommended?

I think you mentioned that cost was an issue, so just get the cheapest. They all basically do the same thing.

Good luck

tokeefe · Post by **tokeefe** » 17 Mar 2006, 12:17

The cheapest declorinator going is a bucket.

I agree with all the others that your biggest problem is water quality, and the best "fix" is major water changes while your filters and substrates bacteria grows to handle it.

Do 25% changes a day for now. Use a 5 gallon bucket for the new water, fill it the night before and drop an airstone in it. It only takes 12-24 hours for the air agitation to remove the clorine. Chloramines are more difficult. If your municipality uses them, buy a chorine/ cloramine remover. I personally use Tetras AquaSafe, which also improves the slime coat, but most of them do these days. Tetra, Jungle, and most other common aquarium brands have a reasonably priced declorinator. It's one of the least expensive aquarium chemicals.

You can also run your tap water through carbon to remove chlorine but again not chloramine.

I'd run the water the night before even if using a chemical though. The aireation removes some other impurities as well, and meanwhile it raises the waters tempurature to a more fish friendly level.

BTW, the white strings are an algeal growth also a strong indication of too high ammonia/ nitrite levels.

Good luck.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 17 Mar 2006, 12:31

I agree with the above advice.

Regarding dechlorinator: For the very moment, just get whatever is the least expensive from the shop - they have mostly the same active ingredients!

However, assuming we can get your fish well again [which I'm hoping we can], in the longer term, Aquarium Pharmaceuticals StressCoat will be more cost effective (in my experience), since you need less of it for a gallon of water. But for the short term, it probably doesn't make a whole lot of differeence, as for the time being you probably only need a couple of hundred gallons worth of dechlorinator.

For me it makes sense to care about the long-term cost of dechlorinator: I've just run out of my US Pint bottle of StressCoat, that I bought in December...

--
Mats

LindaVamp · Post by **LindaVamp** » 17 Mar 2006, 12:31

AHHHHHHHHH that explains why it never bothered him before... I pour the water into the filter when I did changes in the 20 gallon.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 17 Mar 2006, 12:43

Pouring water that hasn't been dechlorinated into the filter is a perfectly good way to kill off some of the nice bacteria in the filter. Chlorine is certainly an irritant to the fish, but it's LETHAL to the bacteria that lives in the filter - you really shouldn't do that!

--
Mats

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 17 Mar 2006, 12:51

The reason you've never noticed any problems in the past, is perhaps that your water company doesn't put much chorine in the water.

I have noticed huge differences from place to place in the smell.

However that is not a reason not to add dechlorinator, especially considering how weak and vulnerable your bullhead must be.

LindaVamp · Post by **LindaVamp** » 18 Mar 2006, 00:45

Ok, He's still hanging in there.

Sluggish, but still responsive.

I have 5 gallons of water bubbling away in my living room with an airstone in it. LOL I removed approximately 7 gallons of water from tank (1-1/2 5 gallon buckets)

I only have one 5 gallon bucket to work with. I am letting the bucket sit overnight and am going to add it to the tank tomorrow morning. It will have been sitting for about 18 hours when I add it. It should be at room temperature and dechlorinated by then.

Now, after I add the fresh water, how long do I wait to take more water out of the tank? Like I said, I only have one 5 gallon bucket and I kinda need it to take water out of the tank but I also need it to let water sit.

Also, for the Melafix, I add it in the amount proportionate to the bucket, NOT the tank? Do I continue treating the tank (at a lower dose) at the same time?

I'm sooooo confused and am feeling really stupid right about now.

On a funny note, Hubby and I went out to dinner with a friend and her kids. She was nice enough to offer me a fish bowl so that I can take the catfish with us if I "didn't feel comfortable leaving him alone" while we were gone. I think I about died laughing, but yet, I wanted to slap her at the same time!

Boy I can't wait for my daughter to adopt a guppy from school.

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 18 Mar 2006, 11:40

I have 5 gallons of water bubbling away in my living room with an airstone in it.

I would never recommend aerating water to dechlorinate it, as it doesn't remove chloramines.

The other problem with this method, is as you have noticed, you can only change 5g per 24 hours. This is about 10% of your tank.

You really need to change 75% (40g) today, followed by 25% (15g) every day afterwards, until he improves.

Obviously this can't be done without dechlorinator.

Also, for the Melafix, I add it in the amount proportionate to the bucket, NOT the tank? Do I continue treating the tank (at a lower dose) at the same time?

Yes, you dose your new water as per the instructions for that quantity of water (ie 5g), so the water you add has the same concentration as the water in the tank (ie the concentration recommended on the instructions)

This way, the tank will remain at the same concentration throughout the treatment.

Hope it works

LindaVamp · Post by **LindaVamp** » 18 Mar 2006, 14:47

Ok.... His skin condition is getting worse.

What is that white patch on him?

I also noticed these little white "dust" looking things on the inside of the tank. However I have never seen "dust" move like these do.

They are on the inside of the glass and look like little dust worms (for lack of a better term). What are these and how do I get rid of them? I have never seen them before.

Hubby won't let me spend anymore money on the catfish.

I'm gonna ask a neighbor if they have any dechlorinater. Otherwise, I'm gonna have to just take the chance. The worst that can happen is he will die if I do this, but on the other hand, he's gonna die if I don't.

LindaVamp · Post by **LindaVamp** » 18 Mar 2006, 16:50

He is not gonna make through the day.

He keeps twitching and tilting to the side.

LindaVamp · Post by **LindaVamp** » 18 Mar 2006, 19:47

I added the fresh water without using dechlorinater but treated the water with enough Melafix to dose the 5 gallon bucket. Like I said, hubby is mad and doesn't want me spending anymore money on the fishtank. I like the catfish, but he's really not worth fighting about.

Since I added the new water, his activity has increased A LOT! He doesn't look as bad as he did earlier. The red sores aren't nearly as red as they were.

LindaVamp · Post by **LindaVamp** » 19 Mar 2006, 01:25

Activity level has increased TREMENDOUSLY! He's been as active as he was in the old tank!

I vacuumed the gravel and took out another bucket and a half of water. I figured I would do the same thing I did today, tomorrow.

I will also take another picture of him tomorrow morning to compare.

Keep your fingers crossed.

Hubby and I had a huge fight today over this.

But I'm not giving up!

Sandtiger · Post by **Sandtiger** » 19 Mar 2006, 05:56

Wow, I don't know what I would do if my signifigant other told me I could not save my dieing pet, probably wouln'dt stay with her

. Anyway, good luck with your bullhead, they truely are great fish. If he does make it or you get other fish I strongly recommend declorinator. There is a declor called Prime that treats 50g with one cap full and a bottle only costs $8.00 or so, very cheap when the life of a pet is on the line and much needed if you are going to keep fish the right way.

Fish Soup · Post by **Fish Soup** » 19 Mar 2006, 07:08

Linda, where do you live in PA? I'm in Delaware County near the Philly Airport. If you are within 20 miles or so I'd be happy to help get this tank in line. I have several established sponge filters that will clear up these water problems. And I'll hook you up with a bottle of dechlor. Shoot me a PM.

Don

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 19 Mar 2006, 12:06

It looks from the photo that the fish also has ich (which you suspected earlier).

Vacuum as much of the gravel as possible when you change the water, as this will remove many of the cysts.

LindaVamp · Post by **LindaVamp** » 19 Mar 2006, 13:55

WOW!!! My camera died (prolly from taking all the pictures of gravel LOL)
He looks GREAT!!! (compared to yesterday morning)

Most of the white patches are gone, his head is healing and the activity level is what it was when he was healthy.
I'm going food shopping today... hehe might be able to sneak a bottle of dechlor in the bill. LOL I'm going to take a sample of the water up to petsmart to have it tested again and this time I'll get the numbers!!

I'll keep you all posted throughout the day again.

LindaVamp · Post by **LindaVamp** » 19 Mar 2006, 17:33

racoll wrote:It looks from the photo that the fish also has ich (which you suspected earlier).

Vacuum as much of the gravel as possible when you change the water, as this will remove many of the cysts.

Actually I don't think it is Ich. The white dots you see in the picture are uniform and in a pattern. What you see on the one side, is on the other as well. In the same spot.

I have been vacuuming the gravel when I take the water out.

I added fresh water again this morning, again treated with Melafix. His activity level is still good. When can I feed him again? He's looking hungry!