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Hope everyone had a nice Thanksgiving. Morning check of things was promising and yet strange at the same time.

Yet another spawn taking place right now in the holding tank. [scratches head]. Two females engaged in this one that I observed. Here's the interesting part of it. While the tank parms are showing ok, the tank itself is not all the great. Zucchini that was placed in the tank two days ago has fuzzed over and of course it's a bit on the messy side with the feeding of the new fry. Found a few roaming around this morning, so at there are some survivors from last spawn.

I'm still going to do a large, well...25% water change today. Hopefully won't disrupt things too much. There are still some bad eggs in there from last spawn that I wanted to get cleaned out.

That's the good thing about research. Just when you think you have a grasp on things...they can change in the blink of an eye. ;o)

Looks like I'll start moving some of the juvies over the holding tank today. They are pretty nice sized at this point. Did a 25% water change in the tank yesterday. Didn't see any of the eggs this morning. Interesting. I'm starting to wonder if there may be some snarfage going on in there.

Another spawn in the holding tank. And as the pattern goes with the past few spawns....more non-viable eggs. Can't quite figure this one out. {scratches head}. Removed (8) bad eggs. Hopefully I won't find any tomorrow but that seems unlikely.

Still need to remove the juvies from the main tank. I have to at least thin them out this weekend regardless.

James0816 wrote:Another spawn in the holding tank. And as the pattern goes with the past few spawns....more non-viable eggs. Can't quite figure this one out.

Is there anything that might be distrubing them in the mating process or anything removed that may have given them a freight?

Nothing has changed in or around the tank. At least nothing that immediately stands out. Hoping to get home today and not find any more non viables. At least if I do, they would be freshly laid. If I find any eggs no longer in the tank, I will have to consider removing at next spawn. Since this is a species only tank, there would be nothing in there to eat the eggs but the Oto's, which I have never noticed in the other tanks.

I'm going to be adding more stem plants to this tank. And I know I keep saying this, but I really need to seperate that Java Fern. It's just too big for the tank even though it's their number one hiding spot.

As expected, I found more non-viable eggs. Hmmmmm....puzzleing. I will be doing a water change and some cleaning in there tomorrow. Have to figure out a time when I can split the Java Fern. I'll make a big swing at when the fry allow.

My plan is to pull the big fern, replace with a smaller one and add a snippet of 'Trident' as well. Then I'll add some additional stems for more grazing area.

Hi there,

New to this forum, forgive me for posting outright...

I've been following this topic with great interest. Since I'm from the Netherlands we do favour a densly planted tank. This is where my love for the small Oto started.

After having several tanks for many years I recently did a "makeover". To accoplish this I had all remaining fish in a small tank for a while. After re-doing the main tank and moving all the occupants of the small tank I was left with a very well "established" green tank. Perfectly suitable for introducing oto's. I disagree with most people since I buy Oto's the day they arrive in the shop. They are usually starving and getting them as quick as possible and moving them to a tank with lots of brown and soft green algae works best for me. No waiting for an initial "die-off", the rest will be starving also. To be honest, I never lost one Oto this way.

So now I bought 14 Oto's (sold as "Vitatus" but there are some other spiecies) in two batches to make sure there's a gene diversity. They fattened up really well in the green tank while I prepared another well planted tank. I used every plant I could find in succesfull breeding reports. I notice however that they have become extremely shy.

So I'm trying to get them to spawn, there's no commercial interest, they are extremely cheap in the shop. I would just love the sight of many Oto's darting through my big tank ;)

Now, my setup. I have a relatively small tank (around 27 liters). It's heavily planted. There's not too much algae (I regret this, but they do a fine job of cleaning). I feed them tablets (pure veggie) every day. Apart from that I keep a constant supply of blanched zuchini available. There's a very fine line between them eating it and the zuchini going bad and fouling the tank I noticed. There's some current (actually quite strong) from the filter in the back. Water values are as follows:

PH: between 6.5 and 7
KH: 4
No2 and No3: 0 (I try and keep the tank as clean as possible, vacuum leftover tablets every other day)
GH: close to zero

Since I got frustrated over them not spawning I bought an RO device and do frequent water changes with RO water. I guess conductivity has gone down to about 150 now....

Now my question, how come I can't get them to spawn? I have some very, very fat females. They look like they're bursting. I also can't see the "typical" behaviour of being on the glass and chasing eacht other. They seem very timid, hiding all the time. I know how they should behave and I am a bit worried. Could it be that there's no algae on the glass?

I'm preparing a water change right now. I'm "airing" a good ten litres of RO water (PH 7, KH 0 with a very big load of peat in there). Water level in the tank has dropped 1/3 so this very acid (I hope) RO water will be a trigger, lowering the temperature by around 4 degrees...

Normal temp is 24 Celsius by the way... Could anyone find any flaws? I'm actually thinking that this would be one of the last attempts because the Oto's deserve to be in the big tank, it's developing some nice brown Algae right now.....

Thanks for any advice....

Hi Saffi! Welcome and thanks for reading.

I'll start by saying the one thing that you probably won't want to hear. I have found no set trigger in this project that sparks the spawn. I have changed so many variables throughout the course of this project and they still spawned. The one thing that does stand out at this time is activity in the tank.

In the main breeder tank (which is a 10g), they don't seem to spawn when there is a lot of activity in the tank. By that I mean when there are too many juvies and Tiger shrimp in there. Once I remove all the little ones and cull the Tigers, that's when they seem to spawn again. In that particular tank.

Over in my holding tank, it's just a completely different game all together. It doesn't matter what goes on in there. It's not really even a tank that I do much with as it was only meant to hold them until I found a home for them. Now this tank just swarms with spawning activity involving several females. In a bit of a bad stretch at the moment that the majority of the eggs go bad all of a sudden but they have been laying a ton of late.

Also, as for "normal" activity, just because they aren't on the glass or chasing each other all the time doesn't make it abnormal. They are typically more active when the lights are off; even in a heavily planted tank. I wouldn't be concerned with that at all. I have a few other tanks where they will just kind of sit around all day. But once the lights are out, I can watch them getting started working over things.

Thanks for the reply,

They're in a species only tank, there's no other occupants. I'll take a good long look at "after hours" activity. I was thinking that maybe this tank is just a bit to crowded for them, so maybe I'll split up the group.

Catching an Oto in a densely planted tank is however a whole different ballgame. I don't want to stir things up too much.

I dropped the water level 1/3 now and will keep it that way for three days, I have a RO/peat mix ready at PH 6/KH 0 and will cool it so the overal temp will be down some degrees. I'm also fattening up some corydoras Panda, if all else fails I will take four Cory's and a fat Oto lady and two males and try to get the cory's to spawn in the planted tank. I read somewhere that that also could be a trigger....

We'll wait and see, first a spawn.

raising is also quite difficult from what I gather.

If something happens I'll post again...

KH 0 seems like a bad thing. KH 0 may be fine in nature, but in a tank, you need some KH to make sure the pH is stable - otherwise, your pH will end up at 4 or 3 or some such...

--
Mats

saffi wrote:Catching an Oto in a densely planted tank is however a whole different ballgame.

Try removing about 50 juvies from same said planted tank. Now, you've got a ballgame.

One thing you can do as you mentioned, would be to thin the group now that you have them established. Pick out two males and one lady. Just let them do their thing from there.

Best of luck to ya and keep us posted.

MatsP wrote:KH 0 seems like a bad thing. KH 0 may be fine in nature, but in a tank, you need some KH to make sure the pH is stable - otherwise, your pH will end up at 4 or 3 or some such...

--
Mats

Thanks for thinking with me...

The KH 0 is the replacement water. The tank is around KH 4, so I'll be replacing 1/3 with KH 0 leaving a KH of just below three. That should be on the safe side. I measure all the time since I once had a PH drop that was incredible.... It's a very fine line from 2 and below. Also I don't add Co2 or anything so things should be on the "stable" side. I also keep around 50% of the "old" water at hand just in case. Just as I try to have a second tank next to it with the same values so in case of problems I would be able to change 90% of the water. I feel like I'm "doctoring" too much but I really hate losing fish.

My goal now is actually to have two "spawning" tanks with what most people would consider "extreme" soft water and a big tank with a bit less extreme, but still very soft water. The main tank has to be a bit more moderate to allow plants to grow. I do have some plants growing in big "vases" in my livingroom (with some shrimp) to be able to replant the extreme tanks if needed.

Pfffttt, I should take up bowling or something...

Take care....

Here are the parameters that I try to maintain.

Temp: 76-78
pH: 7.4
NO3: 20
KH: 4
GH: 4
TDS: < 120 (shrimp in the tank)

If it swings one way or the other, I do not try to adjust it on the fly. I just carry on with a "business as usual" demeanor.

I also occassionally does dry ferts using PMDD. As the tank fills with fry and shrimp, I scale back on that. I keep CO2 pretty steady as well.

Hope all this helps and feel free to ask any other questions.

I changed the setup...

My water "smelled" bad and I decided it was time for a big cleanup. I also had a snail problem and some muck I couldn't vacuum. So I removed all plants, cought all Oto's and did a good cleanup of the bottom sand. Left the water "as is". Since netting Oto's is not a very good idea I tried catching them by hand and that was quite ok...

The smell came from a rotting piece of wood. I purchased one of those plants fitted on wood (they actually just glue them on) and the wood was rotting. Took off the plant and noticed suddenly that an Oto managed to crawl into a small hole and got stuck when I removed the log. It took four hands (my wife was willing to help on this one) and sugical procedures to get the Oto out. By this time I was glad the wood was bad quality, I could chip away enough wood around the Oto to enlarge the hole just enough for him/her to escape.

When counting I realized I had to stand down on my "never lost an Oto" comment. I missed one. Then I hand selected two of the fattest females and two males and put them back in the cleaned and slightly less densely planted tank. The rest was slowly accustomed to the main tank water and released there. They seem to be a lot more happy to be honest. This morning I noticed that they are very relaxed and making progress with some brown algae. One of the lady's is allready very "full"...

Now I looked in the spawn tank and suddenly noticed five Oto's in there. So I can still say "I never lost an Oto" (ofcourse they die sometimes, but this is about the first two months after purchase). It is however another species from Vitatus. I'll catch him soon and let him (it's a male) swim in the main tank.

So now it's up to the two couples. I'll start a water drop and cool water refresh once again soon. First they have to become a bit accustomed to the new layout of the tank. They do seem less frightened and a bit more active.

Meanwhile I'm preparing one tank for a Neon Tetra spawn (I do pick 'm) and I have permission to build a new custom shrimp tank in my living room (they now reside in big vases with very bright HQL lights above them).

Keep you posted...

Fry Catching Day! Oh what fun. Taking a quick break. 15 minutes in and only caught 8 so far. Gotta luv it! I can't use my trap with how many shrimp are in there....but then again...maybe get it set anyway and use it as a secondary method. Hmmmmm...why did I just think of that. I can always fish out the shrimp later. ;o)

Back at it.

Fry catching for the day is done. 20 little fry guys are acclimating to the holding tank. What a challenge! lol. I'll slowly work on the rest throughout the week. My trap worked a little bit. Wound up even catching one of the Briggs. He got out before I could get the camera.

While checking on the Propinqua shrimp this morning, I noticed eggs next door in the holding tank. Good sign as the latest additions to the tank didn't have any impact on spawning. Now the question will be of course, are these going to be good eggs or not?

It's funny, how these spawns always seem to occur the day before a scheduled water change. Interesting. They aren't set days either (just to rule out a timing thing). I just tell myself "self...tomorrow you will do a water change".

And another interesting find in this tank, I saw a fry that is only a couple days old this morning as well. So obviously, there was an additional spawn (partial probably) that went undetected. I never saw any eggs so must have been in the Java Fern.

A late check of the tank last night, and I discovered one non viable egg at the time. A couple looked to be on the fence this morning so should know about those come this afternoon. Did a 10% wc yesterday to follow up with an additonal 10% today. Zucchini is going bad much faster than usual which isn't good but the parms are staying right on par. Heat looks to be hovering around 74 at the moment.

Was able to physically count (19) wigglers today. Found about (10) non-viable eggs from this batch. This one is a bit odd too. The fry are actually bigger than usual. Real pudgeballs this go round.

Doing another 10% water change and prepping fresh zucchini.

Catching little guys from the holding tank was a fun little task this morning. The fry kept getting in the way. From the newbies to the ones that are a few weeks old. I would place the net over a juvie on the glass and one of the fry would lite just above it preventing me from sliding the net upwards. Sometimes they would even lite right next to one I was getting ready to net. Was comical actually. ;o)

Stirred up a couple of huge females during this process. There may be another spawn in the works within the next couple of days. Activity levels are on the increase again.

Will be pulling the remaining juvies out of the main tank between today and Sunday. I may decide to do some trimming in there at the same time.

Getting close to the 100 mark of Oto's rehomed. May have to do something special for that milestone. Maybe offer that package free of charge (not counting shipping of course) to the lucky person. Have to do something kewl.

I like surprises. Water change in the holding tank yesterday morning as scheduled. All going well. Still a few little ones left in that tank. Will have to transfer over the others from the main tank this week.

Later that day while checking on things, I found a wiggler on the glass. Never saw any eggs so they must have laid some in the Java Fern. Only saw the one though.

Looked over the tank pretty good yesterday and this morning but saw no sign of eggs.

Main tank needs some major work. Might be too thick for them to move around in. ;) Trimming on tap for this week as well as relocation of juvies as mentioned.

Spotted some more wiggle waggles in the holding tank today. Awesome. Doing quite nicely considering I didn't know they were there.

Getting ready to start on the main tank. Gonna be a big task involving trimming, minor vac and catching of juvies. Yay Me!

I have probably missed it somewhere in this thread, but my word, what are you doing with all these otos?

I have 6 right now, of my own... love the little things.. I call em post-it fish...

Gina

Post-it fish...I love it. The little guys are finding new homes.

Work continues on the main tank. I have captured 10 more juvies. Looks like I may have about 10 more to go. All the crypts are out now. Small vac is next and then I'll start replanting.

More eggs found in the holding tank today. It's really crowded in there as I have been pulling plants from the main tank and just laying them in there. Obvisouly hasn't detered the activity. ;)

Almost done with the main tank. Have a small issue with the crypts though. I have no medium sized ones to put in there. They are all large or small. Has made the tank pretty bright. I think I can work around that.

This tank continues to amaze me between the Oto's, plants, (2) clutches of Briggs eggs and now the shrimp. I have blue tigers appearing and just yesterday found one with orange eyes.

Prepping zucchini to feed and need to recharge CO2.

Update from me again....

I abandoned the oto project. The small tank just didn't seem right and I found out the sand had gone bad... So the two couples were released in the big tank and I can see they're quite happy there. The big tank is however a bit crowded so even if they would spawn I think I would never find out. I still wonder how to get them to spawn. Somehow you think you have control over every aspect (PH, KH, Microsiemens etc) and still one doesn't get results. you must therefore have magic fingers hahaha...

I'm currently setting up an 80 liter Iwagumi tank. I think some oto's will have a chance to enjoy that tank. Meanwhile they share their space with Japonica, red cherry shrimp, Corydoras Panda, Annulatus and some very active Neons... I also left the Neon spawning try.. I need the filter for the new tank and it seems the neons don't get fattened up enough to do the job ;)

Since I'm converting their spawn tank to an Iwagumi scape as well I might also put some oto's in there. That's only when algeae is becoming problamatic... Same goes for the tank the oto's were in initially. I use in for growing plants now, injecting high levels of CO2 and fertilizer...

I keep on reading, nice job, wish I could have the same results...... ;)

Sry to hear that you're giving up on your project.

Mom and Pop Oto hanging tight today. Activity picking up in the tank. Did a small water change in it today. The Tigers and Briggs are cruising all over the place.

Over in the holding tank, found a couple of wigglers. Big water change in there.

Fresh zucchini prepped and fed tonight.

Latest spawn was a dud. Every egg was bad! Dang! Gonna go do some water tests to see if anything stands out. After which, I'll clean up the eggs, do a small water change and start over.

Will be recharging the CO2 today and prep up a fresh batch of zucchini.

Bad incident this morning. Lost power sometime early this morning. Was out for a few hours. Around 0600ish, everything came back on. I checked things and at first glance, everything seemed ok. I did have to restart two filters. Would know more when I get back home after work.

Only one tank turned out to have issues. I lost two little ones in the holding tank. Doing a 25% water change in there now.

Also scrapped off all the bad eggs. Must have been well over 50. Bad sight to see.

All other tanks were just fine. The only other casulties were in my salt tanks.