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CanadaPleco wrote:Did you get the large L177's? How do they look?

I got the 10 large ones, yes:) They are huge and beautiful. Their condition is only slightly starved. Hope to get them in good condition in a few weeks.
In addition to the 10 large ones I also bought 6 medium sized ones from Jørn Kåsa. These were of course in excellent condition.

Update for today is around 23-24 live ones with no apparent problems. These will be raised seperately from the parents.

Haavard Stoere wrote: I got the 10 large ones, yes:) They are huge and beautiful. Their condition is only slightly starved. Hope to get them in good condition in a few weeks.
In addition to the 10 large ones I also bought 6 medium sized ones from Jørn Kåsa. These were of course in excellent condition.

Update for today is around 23-24 live ones with no apparent problems. These will be raised seperately from the parents.

That's great! I can't wait to see the pictures of them! How big are they?

Glad to hear that over 20 of your L200 fry are doing well also!

I have not measured them yet, but they were bought from Glaser as 12-15cm. It looks about right.

Today I got a new clutch of eggs. I will let the male guard them this time. It is tempting to remove the eggs, but I won`t.

Just to say what I really feel... I really feel like stealing the eggs. Especially since I have become quite good at artificial care of the eggs. What do you guys think? A big consideration is the actual worth of the fish. In one year these juveniles will be a significant income.

The male has a female visitor in the cave again. It is only 4 hours since the spawn. Strange... Is he a bigamist like some Ancistrus? I fear that she is eating the clutch of the other female. I will see tomorrow. If this fails I shall steal ALL future eggs of L200s.

All of this seems wrong. Why should the male let a female into the cave while he is guarding eggs? Why shouldn`t the female eat the previous spawn?

One sad and last update tonight... The cave is empty

It probably has to do with the dynamics of 9+ adults and 5- subadults in the same tank. This was a huge loss...

First, let me say that I'm sorry to read that you lost all the latest eggs.

Haavard Stoere wrote:All of this seems wrong. Why should the male let a female into the cave while he is guarding eggs? Why shouldn`t the female eat the previous spawn?

It is normal, as in I have seen that in my tanks, for Ancistrus males to guard clutches of eggs from more than one female - it is even thought that females are "inspired" to leave their eggs with the male due to the "bristles" on their snout, which is, says this particular theory, looking like baby bristlenoses.

Why would bristlenoses have more promiscuous than other forms of Loricariidae - I would think that if you have more than one gravid female, then the male will "take" eggs from any and all females willing to lay eggs with that male. I'm quite sure they are not forming long-term pairs...

And perhaps the method used by other breeders, to keep only ONE male in the breeding setup, would work for you - but I also understand that this would break up your current group, which may not be such a good idea.

--
Mats

yes I totally concur with what Mats says re eggs from diff females. I have seen my BN's do it. He has one girl go in and she leaves eggs and a littl elater another girl goes in and lays more. That's how the one male I have had 100's of eggs in one cave. Stressed me out. Both girls were laying them!

It seems easier from reading what you have had to do to leave them with the dad to me, even if you are talking money making fish. But I am a total rookie.

And I am sorry you lost some.

talking about males who have several spawnings at the same time :

I saw this behaviour very regularly with my Hypancistrus zebra those last years. My alpha male could have till 3 at a time : youngsters of 2-3 weeks old, a clutch of 5-6 days and a 2nd clutch of the day from a 3rd female...

It went all right during several months, but after a while, the male began to eat his clutches... And there, I began to raise them artificially...

I quiet agree with you, it's sometimes much easier to steal the clutch for an artificial care. Very difficult choice...

Hi,

I do agree with Mats, that it is not so unusual. I would prefer, however, not to talk about "promiscuous", since at the end of the day, it´s a very human term and we are talking about animals that do not care about human moral values..
In that sence, I would a gravid female even expect to spawn with a male guarding eggs/fry, because it has already proven being able to guard (or even raise) fry/eggs. That also fits to observations I made with different Hypancistrus and Ancistrus species (I´m only certain about those two genera because of the frequency of spawnings; others do not allow such statistical evaluation): it is usually the very same male that spawns with all females in the tank, even to the point where it starts to starve (usually, it is then replaced by another male, because it cannot be the dominant male anymore). I very seldomly have two males guarding eggs, while in some instances, there are two generations of fry plus a fresh clutch of eggs in the cave.

On the steeling eggs issue: I tend to leave the eggs with the male, no matter if it occasionally eats them or not. The only exception to that are notorious egg-eaters, that simply don´t go over the first one or two nights without eating the eggs (after countless tries), from those males, I take the eggs. The other thing is (very) rare fish, there, I tend to save the first one or two clutches, in order to have some fish to give to other hobbyists, as a contribution to preservation in the hobby. In general, I prefer to watch the male guard and raise the fry just for the sake of natural behavior.

Cheers, Sandor

If they spawn again this season I will steal the eggs. Next season I will break up the group into pairs or trios and breed them in smaller tanks, and also leave a group in the main tank. Next winter all of my 14 fish will be sexually mature, so I have a lot of fish to play with.

Haavard Stoere wrote:If they spawn again this season I will steal the eggs. Next season I will break up the group into pairs or trios and breed them in smaller tanks, and also leave a group in the main tank. Next winter all of my 14 fish will be sexually mature, so I have a lot of fish to play with.

Looks like you'll be spoiled for choice!

Richard B wrote: Looks like you'll be spoiled for choice!

Absolutely Thats what happens when you buy such large numbers of fish and don`t kill any of them. I plan to keep all but a couple of surplus males if there are any.

Today I counted them and photographed one. There were 23, so I have not lost a single specimen the last couple of weeks. Feeding is done 3-4 times a day with various crushed dryfoods, crushed peas, dry shell free artemia and beans. Since I don`t have time to sit and observe what they like or don`t like I just give them a little of everything to be sure.

This one I photographed today. It should be around 18 days old.

Hi!

When you move them, It would be nice to see some images from above, so we can learn more about the sexual differences!

What would you say, is the most important factors in making them to breed? Whats the trigger?

I'm really looking forward to an article! I know we also looking forward to an article in the nordic organisation GOC!


Regards
Cristoffer

Cristoffer Forssander wrote:Hi!
What would you say, is the most important factors in making them to breed? Whats the trigger?

I think they breed in the wintertime for sure if both sexes are present and feeding, space and waterquality is good. Triggers in the form of waterchange and lowpreassure will always occur. In my case the whole autumn and winter have been a huge rainyseason with large and frequent RO waterchanges in all my tanks.

Cristoffer Forssander wrote: When you move them, It would be nice to see some images from above, so we can learn more about the sexual differences!

I shall keep that in mind when the time comes. As some of the fish have been sexually active for over a year the differences should be very apparant.

The male has had a female visitor again. The eggs have not been laid, but I expect her to lay them sometime the next couple of days. I shall steal the eggs as soon as possible.

hi havaard,
how about leaving the male in the cave but separating it from the others...why not that way! me personaly i would be scared of getting fungus on the eggs in the first few days...(as it worked fine with yours...)

farid

Farid wrote:UPDATE:
since this morning the eggs are gone...i guess eaten by another male as the father was no in his cave...
farid

This is why I steal the eggs. I just don`t want anyone to eat them.

A small update about raising the fry/juveniles.
From the first batch before christmas I lost 4 juveniles in the 3rd to 4th week. This time I have lost 3 juveniles in the 3rd to 4th week. This period seems to be a bit critical for some of the weaker individuals. It could have something to do with incorrect feeding. I don`t know.

Today I stole the third clutch of eggs this season.
It will be hatched artificially. I really hope to resolve the mystery deaths that occur around 3-4 weeks after hatching. It probably has to do with feeding I think.

great news!!

the breeding continues! must be very interesting to watch, i hope you will learn more and more about these fish and especially about raising the fry! i wish you the best of luck Haavard!

very cool havaard...i'm curious how they(you) do it

cheers
farid

hi there,
i got two L2000 in the cave again curious what's happening in the next few hours!

a lot of freshwater and a bit of a change of the decoration...new wood and huge anubia nana's nothing more two day after like last time i made a change with new caves...they are inside!
and of course always shrimps of mosquito larvae n between vegi food and tabs

farid

Good luck with your L200s Farid:)

I lost my last batch of eggs to bacteria.

this time i will try to separate he male soon as possible...so the eggy will be "supported" a bit. i wonder if i should use pure UV water to wash teh little glasstank i use to hang in there or if i just leave it the way it is and use normal tankwater...of if i shoult pinch the eggs after about 4 says and put it in antibakterial water (outside of the tank???)

farid

hi there,
the male is faning and already separated
farid

Nice Farid

Next time I will let the male guard the eggs, since I failed last time.

Yesterday I released the last batch of juveniles in to the main tank. There were 18 of them, so I only lost 5 during the difficult period. I am happy with that

May I add I have just spent the last 2 hours of my time reading this thread from front to back and until then I didnt know this particular species had been bred in captivity and up until yesterday I had purchased a 75 gallon long tank and big peices of slate/rocks and driftwood and putting in a sandy bottom. I was going to purchase 5 of them from snookn21 off aquabid and Haarvard soon as he picks me out 5 .I will send pics to you and I trust your opinion on the sexes. I am excited to finally purchase this species and see what develops for me in the future. Ive always admired their look/color and size they can reach. Ive mostly worked with peck. and hypan sp. But I've decided to give it a shot on the Hemiancistrus. Love your pics and thanks for your time and effort into putting so much detail into this thread. .

-chris

I love reading this thread, so cool.

No kidding. I rarely post but I'm a constant reader and Haavard's my hero...