PlanetCatfish.com

Birger wrote:[That is really interesting set of pics Marc...I can see why it would be rare to witness such a thing. How long did the attempt to mate go on?

Hi Birger,
Yes, I thought (think) so too and I'm glad you noticed them.
He attempted for about 10 minutes. Then the female got really annoyed by him and the fact that all her grunting had been useless and swam off. The male remained at the spot and the organ was rather quickly withdrawn (i.e. I could no longer see it).

Since when do you keep ?

Since friday

details, we want details!

how many, both sexes yes or no and most importantly:
where did you get them?

I visited Oliver Frank last friday, it was on the way back home from my holiday in frankfurt.
He had only one, this male. It's a very nice fish, not as boisterous as my galeatus.

that name doesn't ring any bells for me

it's a shop or a person working in a shop, or....?

Oliver frank = Tanganyika.de

I am excited to state I might be ordering a group of 8 cent. perugiae this weekend! They will be from someone who knows their fish and imports a lot of catfish.. but I also taught him how to sex them.. always good to be able to help someone else out!

nvcichlids wrote:I am excited to state I might be ordering a group of 8 cent. perugiae this weekend!

That's good to hear. Hope everything works out fine for you.

I'm having issues of the opposite kind atm: a severe Ich in my small tank which has already cost some lives. So far medication doesn't seem to work; I definitely hope it's not the same disease Martin S once encountered, for I'm not looking forward to a complete wipe out......

Fingers crossed for you Marc, I hope you get a hold of it soon.
Martin

Thanks Martin, hope so too. Yet all 15 Cardinal tetras have kicked the bucket as well as 4 C perugiae/cf. altae. And still counting I'm afraid. Even your C. romani suffer quite badly.
Just now I added a "last resort" medicin; if that doesn't work I have no options left imo.

Meanwhile the Pseudohemiodon in that same tank keep on reproducing: I counted at least 10 juvies and so far these seem unaffected.

Marc van Arc wrote: Meanwhile the Pseudohemiodon in that same tank keep on reproducing: I counted at least 10 juvies and so far these seem unaffected.

That is good to hear... I am unable to find any of these over here... still waiting..

As far as your ick problem. I had something about 2 years ago which people called "chinese ick or super ick" where no treatment worked. I tried just about everything and lost every fish in the three contaminated tanks. I hope you are able to find something to stop the spread.

Oh blimey, here we go again...

I recall the photos of MartinS's sick fish and it was all very sad to see. Half the problem with this kind of outbreak is its so fast acting.

I'd be inclined to raise the temp dramatically to approx 90deg with strong aeration.

I also think that because that disease was so virulent, the fish just didn't have the strength to handle chemical treatments.

good luck Marc

Thanks NVC and Richard,
Good point wrt spreading the disease. Of course I've been careful since I found out last Wednesday evening, but as there was no need to be careful before that date I won't give any guarantee that I haven't established contact between the tanks. I say this because my T. intermedia behave differently and they live in the medium tank. Can't say I see anything on them, but will keep monitoring.
Here are some sorry pictures of a dead C. perugiae (number 5) and a hardly recognizable C. romani (still alive - quite incredible).
And - oddly enough - Pseudohemiodon juvies which are doing fine up to now....

If you believe that it is ick or something comparable maybe you should try Protazol from Sera. It works very fast and good, most fishes (including catfishes) have no problems with this medication. One warning: read the manual very good.

that's exactly the advice I gave Marc when he called me early saturday morning

these fish look very bad

however I have saved fish that looked like these....unfortunately it wasn't with protazol but with a combination of heat (29'C) and a lot of sea salt, up to 6 grams per liter tankwater.

if the protazol doesn't work that's the last solution

but I don't know if South American fishes can handle that amount of salt, actually I fear they cannot.

the ich definitely can't handle that kind of salinity.

Alas, it turned out to be the wipe out I feared, despite proper medication, salt and a raised temperature.
This morning I found dead:
Entomocorus gameroi 2
Centromochlus concolor 1 (male)
Tatia gyrina 8
Centromochlus perugiae/altae 8
Centromochlus reticulatus 2
Centromochlus romani 2

I still see one C. concolor and there should also be one C. romani and one E. gameroi.
The Pseudohemiodon juvies don't like things anymore and who can blame them?
To my utter disbelief the Sewellia is also still alive.
I won't torment myself with the "Why??"; I've been there before and it costs too much energy for no good as I can't turn back the clock.
Without being dramatical, I think this is the end of my Centromochlinae hobby and at this moment I'm quite sure it's the end of that tank as well.

New name of thread: which auchenipterids are no longer kept by PC members......Not happy.

Update: the C. concolor female, the Helogenes marmoratus and the Sewellia (no catfish) are dead as well.

Wow, Marc. it seems like the poisoned cup has to be emptied completely for you and your fish.

Sorry to hear, Marc. If it wasn't for bad luck, you wouldn't have had any lately, eh?

--
Mats

These things happen sometimes when you keep fish. It's really sore, but the negative feeling fades with time. Keep going!

Jools

Jools wrote:These things happen sometimes when you keep fish. It's really sore, but the negative feeling fades with time. Keep going!

I'll have to; just noticed some (very few) spots on the A. nigripinnis and the Markiana nigripinnis (no catfish) in the medium tank. Because both species are very skittish, I needed a magnifying glass to make sure it was no sand. Also the intermedia behaviour is still a-typical. After the previous disaster I'm not taking any chances, so this tank is now medicated. At least I'm not late this time.

my order has been delayed due to my tank not being ready. I was hoping to have all my new wood and plants in this week, but it looks like they won't be in until late this week, so ordering will have to wait.

Marc, I hope everyone else ends up being safe in the other tanks. Hopefully it was just sand kicked up on the skittish fish!

Hi Marc

These are really sad news...things like that happened and are always heartbreaking...sometimes jeopardizing your passion...but it grows back...
I keep my finger crossed and hope things will be better with no further losses.

I have seen that since a few years now, the Icht train seems to be more resistant to treatment, probably the same with bacteria and overexposition to treatment...they became medication's resistant...

Cheers
Yann

I wouldn't wish what I went through on anybody, especially you Marc.
It took me some time to decide if I was going to carry on, but now I wouldn't be without even a small catfish based tank.
I truly hope you get a hold of it and have caught the other tank quick enough from losing anything else.
Martin

Last time, I don't recall consensus on what this disease actually was. Some said a more virulent strain of ich, some said oodinium.
My view was oodinium. Its not always a clearcut-diagnosis... I don't think the fine peppery dusting is always evident. There's also clamped fins, gasping, listless, slime shedding, and rapid demise.

So is it ich or oodinium, or something else?

wrasse wrote:So is it ich or oodinium, or something else?

It always concerns me with ich and particularly oodinium that the actual cause was something else. An example from way back when was a guy who ran a big 6x2x2 and used to come in the shop from time to time to buy kit/food and sometimes fish but it was mostly a stable tank. Over a period of about 2 years, he had 3 wipe outs in the same tank. Some fish got sick, then the whole lot went usually. Eventually we tracked this down to the fact that he was working on his car (like really working on it, not giving it a wash!) and then cleaned his hands of grease with something that stayed on his skin for at least 12 hours and if he went into the tank in that time it caused this. It took 3 wipe outs to cause this pattern to be seen, as you always worry about more related things like adding new fish, water changes and so on.

I only do water changes of 1/3 of the fishroom for this very reason. If there is something wrong with the new water, I am only affecting 33% of my tanks. Assuming it takes less than 3 days to show (roughly my water change regime is 33% of 33% every (around 1200 litres) three days.

So, I am not saying it's a water change, and I don't think it's something specific. But are there any patterns here Marc?

Jools

marc and I had some really long talks and brainstorms about this

what is particular intruiging is that it looks a lot like what happened to my Tanganyikan hobby wich eventually caused me switch to Madagascar

it started with fish that were stressed in combination with the fact that they came from a source wich is known to carry a particular resistant strain of ich.

it takes about 1 or 2 weeks to get visible and then it's too late.

either the fish carry the disease with them without being harmed by it, or the disease is in the bag water and hasn't affected the fish before, but as soon as the fish have been netted, transported and introduced in a new tank (3 stressfactors in a row) it gets visible.

by the time it's settled in a tank it spreads rapidly and the fish at home have no resistance, and most or all the known available medications are useless.

this particular strain of ich is resistant to:
femsee
exit
asha 2000
aquaboline
FMC
nalachite green
cobalt blue
HS ichtocell

like oldfashioned ich it doesn't affect healthy fishes at first; but as soon s it has multiplied on an unhealthy fish it can and does overwhelm the immune systems of healthy fish.

fish that can resist even that attack are weakened by the use of massive doses of medications that won't work, but poison the fish and the entire tank.
soit comes in three 'waves';

first the newcomers that carry the virulent strain but aren't affected by it, until they're stressed out from the catching, removal and new tank

second the more fragile fish already in that tank

third the tougher fish that weaken only by the medication and fter being poisoned also succumb to the ich.
this is particulary true of many catfishes; at first their thick skin or layer of mucus protects them from the ich; but their sensitivity to chemicals weakens them to the point that the diseasecan attack them.

it can and does clear out a tank within a week, sometimes it takes longer, but it's highly lethal; mortality rate goes from 60-100%

small fish are usually toast, larger fish can survive if they're tough ad especially captive bred.

one cure that works is the combintion of heat and salt.
unfortunately this is not good news for keepers of South American fish.
with Riftlake, Central American or Madagascar fish you can build up both heat and salinity tothe point where the osmosis gets high enough to kill all freshwater ciliates.

very few South American catfishes (or cichlids) could handle that amount of salt; Platystacus, Arius, Hypostomus (tested!) etc, but Auchenipterids?
not likely.

I got it in the coffin (the ich) by raising the temperature to 29-30'C in combination with a salinity of 6% wich I build up in 3-4 days. strong enoughto be tasteable. brackish.
1-2% didn't do it. at least not here.