My 300L South American Community Set-up

Ryan S · Post by **Ryan S** » 18 Sep 2006, 16:37

Well due to my other thread being mainly about how to zap snails, I thought I'd start a new one about the tank 10 months down the line.

Once the snails were in check â?? or rather were eradicated â?? I started to introduce fish to the set up. Initally the stock was my 5 beunos aires tetras from my overcrowded hex tank. These were soon joined by 3 black neons, and a various others until I had a nice shoal of 15 rummy nose tetras 10 cardinal tetras 10 beckfordâ??s pencil fish and various catsâ?¦

3 C. sterbai
1 L204
LDA31
2 Meglaechis thoracta
1 Anostomus ternetzi
3 Brochis splendens
An algal bloom prompted the purchase of 2 tiny bristlenoses shortly after new year.

But I was really hankering after a group of C. gaupore. I wanted a fish that would be active in the midwater â?? but one that was slightly different and would interested ME!

I finally got some (6 I think) but unfortuantely they succumbed to a fungal infection. They were wild caught and as such are apparently more succeptable to disease. I think I was left with 2 of the original batch. When I mentioned the demise of the original group to my LFS the 2 were bolstered up to 7 free of charge! Although they lasted longer â?? they dissappeared one by one â?? with no obvious cause of death (with hindsight Iâ??m wondering whether they got enough nurishment?)

After that little episode I was quite discouraged, and set about finding the perfect small cichlid for my set-up. This also seemed to be destined for failure! After deciding that a pair of Apistogramma nijsseni was the way to go â?? I duly bought a pair, and marvelled at the colours!

The male lasted all of 12 hrs! (however the female is still alive and well) Unfortunately I bought them from a shop that I couldnâ??t easily get back to. So the female remained solo.

Then I think I bought 3 A. cacatoides â?? only to have an outbreak of ich a few months ago.
This proved to be pretty catasrophic. As well as 2 Apistos, the casualties included 5 pencilfish, 3 rummynosed tetras, 2 black neons, and all onf the cardinals.

Not a happy felling netting out dead fish for the best part of a week.

Happily all of the cats survived unscathed.
I left the tank to settle down for quite a while, but recently added a few more fish...the curreent stock is as followsâ?¦

7 BA Tetras (3 Male 4 female)
5 Bleeding Heart Tetras (1 male 4 female)
1 Black Neon tetra (she is as old as the hills)
5 Beckfordâ??s Pencilfish (one male four female)
5 3 lined Pencilfish
10 Rummy nosed tetras
1 Anostomus ternetzi (if he were human heâ??d be sectioned â?? mad as a snake!)
1 Flash Pleco L204
1 Mustard spot pleco LDA31
2 tiny common BN's
2 Meglaechis thoracta (mature pair)
3 Brochis spendens
4 Corydoras duplicareus
3 Corydoras schwartzi
1 Corydoras sterbai (returned the other 2 as they were not quite right â?? strange body shape)
4 juvinile Biotodoma cupido â?? Having seen a mature pair in a show tank they are a far better bet than these dwarf cichlids!

The filteration is a standard Juwel internal and a small airpump driven sponge filter.
Water changes are usually 25-30% every 10-14 days.
Iâ??ll get some pics up soon.

sidguppy · Post by **sidguppy** » 18 Sep 2006, 17:40

it's indeed waaayyyyyyyy overstocked, but it looks like you covered your butt by not adding the poll-option:
#4: get a bigger tank ASAP or trade half the fish!

you got a mozaik in there, a liquid stamp collection.....
too many species, too few individuals per species, 2 pairs of cichlids and all the catfish competing for the floorspace....

there's more than just waterquality issues when it comes to fishkeeping! take behaviour and territorial issues for example, and need of rest- or hidingplaces. something wich cannot be solved simply by "changing more water". even if you changed like 50% a day you will not solve those problems; these fish simply haven't got room to move, room to display natural behaviour, room to avoid stress.....

IMO you should ditch:
-the ternetzi! this is a fairly agressive and nasty fin- and scalepicker that should be kept in a large group (8+) to spread the agression and with sturdy robust agressive tankmates. Pencilfish, Kwikwi's, Rummy Noses or Cory's are not on that list.
-1 of the 2 pairs of Biotodoma to give the catfish "room to breathe". if 1 of those pairs get into spawning mode your tank will quickly resemble a killing field, even if the agression will occur only to their own speciesmembers. it'll create havoc.
-2 species of the Corydoras! best way to keep those is less species, more fish per species!
-1 species of Pencilfish. they too show very nice behaviour when kept in a true shoal.
-2-4 of the other characin species. this is similar to the Cory-thing: less species, more fish per species.

and add:
-more Cory's of the single remaining species to a total of 6-8 fish
-more of the remaing species of non-pencil Characin to a total of say 10-15 fish
-more of the remaing single species of Pencilfish to a similar number.

2 shoals of Characins in that tanksize is max; but they behave soooooo much better if you boost shoals up to 10-15 for a single species instead of having a collection of singlets, too small groups or similar shaped varieties.

Now it's almost psychedelic. too crowded, too many castoffs, add-ons, unsuitable stowaways and mixed ups.

Ryan S · Post by **Ryan S** » 19 Sep 2006, 11:11

I don't have time to reply to this in full atm...
But in short -

Bio's are juv's and only 1 pair will be kept as adults

There is no problem with competition for floor space.

there are plenty of hiding places.

The 2 pencilfish species mix readily with each other - and are usually found in a shoal.

The Cory's are always foraging together - last night the sterbai a schwartzii and 2 adolfoi were bumbling around with each other for ages.

The Ano does not bother ANY of the small fish. He is rather fond of the Meglaechis though - but they are THE most robust fish in the tank...and shrug him off.

So forgive me but when you typed "these fish simply haven't got room to move, room to display natural behaviour, room to avoid stress....." I don't agree - you really should sit and watch them for an afternoon

.

The BA tetras are always found cruising around together.
The BH tetras are usually in the same spot in a group, and the RN tetras are always in a group of 7+ (all together at feeding time), and as mentioned previously the pencilfish are happy to mix with each species all day long.

BTW the tank dimensions are 121Lx62Hx62W cm = Volume 383L.
I thought it might be a little overstocked - but the way you make out the fish are at war - or will be keeling over within the next couple of days.

(sorry if that seems like I'm on the defensive - but the wording of the previous message set the tone - there are ways of making a point!)

Ryan

Ryan S · Post by **Ryan S** » 19 Sep 2006, 11:16

Oh - and I don't have any cast-offs thankyou!
I do however have two fish that are singletons (the black neon, and the Apisto. These fish are the last of their kind after the ich outbreak. I have no-where else to put them - I'm not sure the LFS would want to take an old black neon tetra anyway

(she's hardly pristine - must be 4 or 5 years old).

The apisto might well be a different matter - but she is cool to watch - seems far more intelligent than any other fish in there.

sidguppy · Post by **sidguppy** » 19 Sep 2006, 16:09

well

what;s the point of setting up your post if (and it's pretty obvious the way you replied):
-you're definitely not wanting any real advice anyway
-you're not planning to change a single thing
-you don't like opinions about this tank except when they agree with what you're already doing (wich is plain when viewing the way the poll's set up)

guess I wasted my time on someone who's practicing anti-fishkeeping and stubborn enough to pat himself on the head for it as well.

In my book the well doing of the fish comes first.
it's very clear you have a different book; I'll keep from giving anymore advice to you; since it's a total waste of time and effort.

I sure feel sorry for each and every fish in there.

Ryan S · Post by **Ryan S** » 19 Sep 2006, 19:13

sidguppy wrote:stubborn enough to pat himself on the head for it as well.

WTF is all that about

I've tried to edit the poll - but can't

Sorry if you don't like the way it's set-up.
Also sorry I came back here at all - I don't mind friendly advice - or constructive critism.

If you want people to 'do it your way' you might want to use some interpersonal skills and try a touch of subtlety.

Takes deep breath - I've got enough troubles to worry about atm without a keyboard warrior getting on my case - and exhale.

*Edited for smiley - must keep smiling

kuhni · Post by **kuhni** » 07 Oct 2006, 15:53

Cories do better with at least 4-5 of their own species goes for the brochis as well. I feel you should return the sterbai, ternetzi and any other fish you plan on getting rid of as soon as possible, Then bump up the corys and brochis to 4-5 for each species. By Adding some more filtering you should Be able to increase the bioload of your tank meaning you won't have too bad an overstocking issue. My Word is not gospel so if anyone can see anything wrong with what I have suggested be free to correct me.

Owch · Post by **Owch** » 07 Oct 2006, 17:41

Ryan S wrote: BTW the tank dimensions are 121Lx62Hx62W cm = Volume 383L.

I'd check on your tank dimension, and the actual amount of water in there.

I have a Rio 400 and when full, to slightly over the recommended level, there is about 360 litres of water in it.

Your quoted 383 litres is the volume taken up by the external dimensions of the tank, which are 121 x 51 x 62. The glass is 10 or 12mm thick, therefore internal dimensions are (if 10mm thick) 119 x 49 x 61 = 356lt. If you fill it to the red line (about 8cm from the top) then 119 x 49 x 53 = 309lt, then take off 10% for substrate, decor and plants (10% is quite lenient) you get 278 litres.

Thatâ??s an over quote of 105 litres or 37%. Be careful if you ever need to add medication, as if you dose at the 383l level you may knacker you bio filter or your fish!

PS, although your tank is over stocked, thats not really a problem if you have adequate filtration and that each specie competes equally for food AND if you keep the nitrates down with plenty of water changes.

What is a problem is the number of different species in there and not enough of each to make any one truly happy.

Tom

Post by **Marc van Arc** » 07 Oct 2006, 21:38

Owch wrote:
Ryan S wrote: BTW the tank dimensions are 121Lx62Hx62W cm = Volume 383L.
I'd check on your tank dimension, and the actual amount of water in there.
Your quoted 383 litres is the volume taken up by the external dimensions of the tank, which are 121 x 51 x 62.

Tom,
You've lost 10 cms in height in your calculation.
I agree that lots of liters are "lost" to sand/gravel, rocks, wood , plants etc., but the total volume of Ryan's empty tank is imo 432 liters (12x6= 72 x6= 432).

Owch · Post by **Owch** » 07 Oct 2006, 22:55

Ryan's measurements are wrong I'm afraid, the tank is only 51cm wide, and that even includes the plastic surround.

My Rio 400 is quoted as 151 x 51 x 62, the plastic base takes up 1cm of that giving 150 x 50 x 62, then the glass is 10mm thick giving 148 x 48 x 62, and you can only fill the tank up to 54cm deep so finally 148 x 48 x 54 = 384lts less 10% = 345lts.

Looking at mine, and calcing that to Ryan's tank (Details here) would make his nearer 275lts.

Regarde'

Tom

Ryan S · Post by **Ryan S** » 08 Oct 2006, 13:40

For those that are at all interested - the tank measures 120x50x52cm Glass is 0.7cm thick (***Just realised this may be thicker - as I measured the bit showing at each corner.)
So that's approx 118.6 x 48.6 x 51.3 (to waterline)cm

Thin layer of sand is now used as substrate - so I think 10% is a bit of an overestimate

Right gotta get on - the water won't change itself...

And the girlfriend has just agreed that I can have my breeding tank set-up in the study - not bad for a couple of hours moping!

**EDITED for moment of clarity

Owch · Post by **Owch** » 10 Oct 2006, 01:52

So I wasn't a million miles out then!

Ryan, I am sympathetic to your cause, I myself am guilty of over stocking my tank.

In the Rio 400 (only 345lts water remember) I have

14 Discus between 4.5" and 7"
1 Gibby 12"(and growing)
1 Pecoltia sp. 4"
4 Ancistrus 3" - 6"
15 C Aneaus 2" - 3"
8 C Sterbi 2" - 3"

Lots of fish, but 3 main groups, all happy. And so they should with 3 - 4 feedings a day and usually 7 x 40ltr water changes a week.

All you need to do is increase group numbers and reduce specie numbers - and do lots of water changes.

Good luck

Tom

My 300L South American Community Set-up

Is it currently overstocked?

My 300L South American Community Set-up