C. Paleatus, Long fin ??? High fin ???

Super Coryman · Post by **Super Coryman** » 13 Apr 2003, 21:09

C.Paleatus fins.
Do females with the high fin gene show such high fins ?or is it that only males so a higher fin?? Can any one post a pic of a high fin female?

Ps. What is the difference between long-fin, highfin and ribbon?

Post by **Silurus** » 13 Apr 2003, 21:17

Long fin:

High fin:

Ribbon:

philtre · Post by **philtre** » 14 Apr 2003, 15:51

very informative!

never new they had different specific classifications, especially the ribbon. how would you define the ribbon fin? slight curve outwards>?

thanks!
phil

Post by **Silurus** » 14 Apr 2003, 16:40

I think ribbon is just like high fin, only much longer.

Super Coryman · Post by **Super Coryman** » 14 Apr 2003, 18:00

Thanks,
Do females express this characteristic ??

Post by **Coryman** » 14 Apr 2003, 19:51

There are populations of C. paleatus in the wild where males show the first three dorsal rays extended, none of the other fins are affected. THESE ARE NATURAL and cannot be compared to the three pictures shown, these have yet again been influanced by man and in my opinion should be avoided.

There are somewhere in the region of 250 species of Cory so why the hell do idiots keep distorting them. To say it ticks me off is an understatement.

I would be very interested in hearing other opinions on this, although this subject comes up on a regular basis.

Ian

Yann · Post by **Yann** » 15 Apr 2003, 08:24

Coryman wrote:There are populations of C. paleatus in the wild where males show the first three dorsal rays extended, none of the other fins are affected. THESE ARE NATURAL and cannot be compared to the three pictures shown, these have yet again been influanced by man and in my opinion should be avoided.

There are somewhere in the region of 250 species of Cory so why the hell do idiots keep distorting them. To say it ticks me off is an understatement.

I would be very interested in hearing other opinions on this, although this subject comes up on a regular basis.

Ian

Hi!

I totally agree with IAN on that Topic!
There is far enough different species and genus with such a variety of behavior, size, colour keeping ... to satisfy everybody without needing to create some more ...
Lets keep a natural strain of each species!!!
Cheers
Yann

zac08 · Post by **zac08** » 15 Apr 2003, 11:56

As a beginner...

this is my feelings on the matter... yes, most times we would find it revolting to see a man-made species popping up in the market esp when you do know it was created by man, not nature....

But another way of looking at it is that we've acclerated the evolution curve abeit in a very fast manner... such oddities do happen and we will fix them if we actually find them desirable... So who's god and who's not now?? Fixing a known species for some of the qualities (e.g. one may wish to see a brighter patch on the duplicareus head and try to fix the genes such that the bright colours will be dominant, so is that man-made??)

I for one had bought 3 specimens of a man-made paleatus... and I won't say I was pretty pleased when I knew about the man-made bit of my fishes... but they are also of life and they might appeared sometime later due to quirks in nature... who knows...

Super Coryman · Post by **Super Coryman** » 15 Apr 2003, 19:12

My male paleatus has the first three spines of the dorsal fin extended just like Ian said. The other fins are just like the other males'. This male was the only one with the high dorsal fin aout of a brood of 143. He was the only one raised in soft and acidic water, does this help the cory to express the highfin gene ?

Post by **Coryman** » 16 Apr 2003, 01:33

zac08
A quirk of nature

A quirk of nature may create the odd hybrid but nature does not mess around with hormones to create features that have absolutely no purpose.

Why would nature create a fish that lives in fast streams with long flowing fins that it cannot control, or a fish with with a great big belly so the only way it cat feed is by standing virtically on its nose to be able to feel into the substrate for food particles!!

Super Coryman
The fact that there are naturally long dorsal finned males naturally in the wild means that they will show up in spawnings from time to time. The fact that the seeed to disapear from the hobby fairly quickly may maen that the fin developement may have only been a seasonal breeding thing with dominant males, after the breeding season is over the fin reduces. This is something that happens with the odontodes (bristles) on many of the long snouted Cory's pectoral fin spines.

Ian

zac08 · Post by **zac08** » 18 Apr 2003, 04:18

Well... I won't know.... nature is damn weird...

there are fishes with 2 heads, some with 2 bodies... and I've seen worse mutations and those animals manage to live.... amazing but true...

I understand your viewpoint about not messing with nature.... But I'm trying to state another point that these may be common in future, who knows??

Yann · Post by **Yann** » 18 Apr 2003, 08:56

zac08 wrote:Well... I won't know.... nature is damn weird...

there are fishes with 2 heads, some with 2 bodies... and I've seen worse mutations and those animals manage to live.... amazing but true...

I understand your viewpoint about not messing with nature.... But I'm trying to state another point that these may be common in future, who knows??

Hi!

Regarding animal with 2 heads and other mutations: we have been able to find out than these mutation oftenly occur when the environement has been polluated by Human.
The only "natural" mutation that I know are albinism and xantochromic, but these are rarely encountered in nature because usually animals with such mutation are highly visible and have usually a short life.

Cheers
Yann

Antman · Post by **Antman** » 18 Apr 2003, 17:07

When you say "man-made", are you saying that man has done something specific to encourage a higher mutation rate (by using some sort of chemical agent or irradiation to affect DNA transcription), or that man has developed new strains by selectively breeding fish with "desirable" characteristics?

Effecting change through chemicals, radiation, or genetic manipulation for what is essentially an aesthetic motive in a hobby is uncalled for and disgusting.

However, there is a point to be made that selective breeding to encourage desirable traits is just evolution at work. Obviously, some species (say, cattle) have benefited greatly from selective breeding to suit man's needs. Cattle are currently a very successful species if you go by population, and they've worked out the cushy situation of being fed and cared for their whole lives. If they hadn't been domisticated, they'd probably be extinct, or near to it. So in the sense that every living organism tries to pass on its genetic legacy, "pleasing man" is a viable evolutionary strategy, to almost any extent.

Also, somebody said that mutations in nature don't really exist. That's not true -- mutations are just evolution at work; some mutations "work" and allow the species to compete better, and some don't work and make the species victim to an early demise. I suspect that not that many years ago (evolutionarily speaking), there was only one proto-cory catfish, that since has evolved into all these 250 species or more, adapting to their specific locations better and developing specific population traits.

Just the thoughts of a neophyte.

--Bryan

Post by **Coryman** » 18 Apr 2003, 20:57

When you say "man-made", are you saying that man has done something specific to encourage a higher mutation rate (by using some sort of chemical agent or irradiation to affect DNA transcription),

Effecting change through chemicals, radiation, or genetic manipulation for what is essentially an aesthetic motive in a hobby is uncalled for and disgusting.

This was exactly my point.

Ian

Yann · Post by **Yann** » 19 Apr 2003, 08:26

Antman wrote:Also, somebody said that mutations in nature don't really exist. That's not true -- mutations are just evolution at work; some mutations "work" and allow the species to compete better, and some don't work and make the species victim to an early demise. I suspect that not that many years ago (evolutionarily speaking), there was only one proto-cory catfish, that since has evolved into all these 250 species or more, adapting to their specific locations better and developing specific population traits.

Just the thoughts of a neophyte.

--Bryan

Hi Bryan !
I never said it does not exist, I know it exist, however, regarding 2 heads animals and such "strange" mutation does not occur in nature in a natural way but mainly because of human pollution.
Mutation sure exist in nature, fish with a different colour or longer or smaller fins but Nature do not isolate these particuliar fish and selecte them to make them Ballon type or long fins type...
Mutation in the way you say it regarding new species, these mutation occure because of a population being isolated from the others and they develop their own charateristic.
The only mutation that work in nature are the one that would allow the population to keep existing in the future.
Mutation in nature are not made for pleasing man but to help the animal to get adapted to his biotop.
Cheers
Yann

corydorus · Post by **corydorus** » 19 Apr 2003, 20:31

So if those longfin or high fins are resulted due to selective breeding,
I would think is still ok for now. Using DNA is not acceptable to me now too but we won't know our view will change maybe 10 years down the road.

Anyway I feel that by keeping them in filtered,bulb lighted, planted community tank and feeding food not normally obtained by them in the wild, simulating them to breed, we are already changing the behaviour,characteristic & nature of the corys.
I will not be surprised to see significant change in the Cory behaviour/colour/shapes after let says 20 generation breeding in the tank, in my life time even w/o doing selective breeding ... possible ?

On a separate note, believe me, we will see the days we will have very beautiful DNA modified or interbreed or through fantastic selective breeding corys on the shelves.
It will probably be against nature in the wild but probably not so if you intend to keep it within the aquarium trade. What is wrong now will probably be right later .... is just a matter of evolution speed. And man is part of that evoluation process too as we become smarter(that's how DNA comes abt ?).

So 1 higher spieces changing another thru' DNA IS natural too if we try to argue beyond logical interpretation line, 10 or 30 years later ?

My niece at her age is much much smarter than me at my times. Am I going to stop her thinking ? They have gone thru "selective" education, educated parent and better foods example ... and maybe better medical care ... are all this artificial and not natural ?
Food for thought.

Yann · Post by **Yann** » 20 Apr 2003, 08:46

corydorus wrote: On a separate note, believe me, we will see the days we will have very beautiful DNA modified or interbreed or through fantastic selective breeding corys on the shelves.
It will probably be against nature in the wild but probably not so if you intend to keep it within the aquarium trade. What is wrong now will probably be right later .... is just a matter of evolution speed. And man is part of that evoluation process too as we become smarter(that's how DNA comes abt ?).

Hi!

Well I sincerely hope it will never be the case and I will always try to do my best at my level for such thing never happen. This is the worst possible end up to such topic.
I love fish the way they are in the nature, I don't care if they are farm bred but as long as their strain is pure!
Cheers
Yann

Post by **Coryman** » 21 Apr 2003, 13:14

CORYDORUS

As a so called Corydoras lover you should be striving to maintain all Corydoras species in their natural state as found in nature. Their natural habitats are being decimated at an alarming rate and it is up to us to make sure that all species survive in their purest form.

Anyway I feel that by keeping them in filtered,bulb lighted, planted community tank and feeding food not normally obtained by them in the wild, simulating them to breed, we are already changing the behaviour,characteristic & nature of the corys.
I will not be surprised to see significant change in the Cory behaviour/colour/shapes after let says 20 generation breeding in the tank, in my life time even w/o doing selective breeding ... possible ?

I have been keeping and breeding Corydoras for almost thirty years and the fish I am breeding today have not changed at all and are never likely to unless I introduce unnatural influences.

Your arguements on one hand, say you are against man made genetic modification, but on the other hand you are saying its bound to happen and it will be OK. I think not.

If you are indeed a lover of fishes you should be doing all you can to stop the devepopment of mutated species, You are living in a part of the world that seems to be the centre for these practices.

Ian

zac08 · Post by **zac08** » 21 Apr 2003, 16:58

Isn't farm breeding against natural habitats and the way of the wild?? How would it cultivate natural wild fishes anymore??

Farm-bred are farm bred... and how can you be 100% sure that the strain is pure?? Even cross-breedings has happened in the wild... Even home breeding programs can't simulate a natural habitat of the Amazon or other parts of the tributaries....

We alter the water temp., add in sand from other areas, add in plants not from their habitats, induce the to spawn by changing water, else we'd alter the water chemistry by making the water pure and soft via RO or other processes, and then add in other chemicals to compensate... Is this natural?? Will the fish adapt to a new environment, of such constant water changes, artificial lighting that's way above their normal tolerance??

We are re-creating a world for them and no matter wat we do or try to do, we are never able to re-create an environment as the wild. And over time, these fishes will change in terms of habits, mannerisms, hunger, hunting habits, etc.... Is this still considered the original and pure strain that you first observed in the waters of South America??

Just my 2cts,

Post by **Coryman** » 22 Apr 2003, 10:18

Michael

You miss my argument altogether. Farm breeding is not the problem. If the conditions did not suit the fish they wod not breed.

Its the man made mutant fish that are the problem, this along with the practice of injecting dye into fishes that should be outlawed.

Ian

zac08 · Post by **zac08** » 22 Apr 2003, 18:43

Coryman wrote:Michael

You miss my argument altogether. Farm breeding is not the problem. If the conditions did not suit the fish they wod not breed.

Its the man made mutant fish that are the problem, this along with the practice of injecting dye into fishes that should be outlawed.

Ian

This I agree...

Cheers....

Super Coryman · Post by **Super Coryman** » 22 Apr 2003, 20:12

I agree with you guys. Why do people want these mutants ?? There are mutants in every species,Notched Angelfish, All sorts of mutant goldfish, etc.
Another man made thing is dyes. Why do people dye fish ?? There are tens of thousands of fish.
I've heard that farms in the Czech Rep. are crossing corys by hormones is this true ??

Post by **Coryman** » 23 Apr 2003, 00:12

Thats the what is going on and people are buying them mainly because they are unaware that they are mutants. See what happens when the public find out where GM food crops are being farmed. Its a pity the same thing doesn't happen with that side of fish farming.

Post by **Dinyar** » 23 Apr 2003, 00:46

corydorus wrote:So 1 higher spieces changing another thru' DNA IS natural too if we try to argue beyond logical interpretation line, 10 or 30 years later ?

My niece at her age is much much smarter than me at my times. Am I going to stop her thinking ? They have gone thru "selective" education, educated parent and better foods example ... and maybe better medical care ... are all this artificial and not natural ?
Food for thought.

Corydorus, I tried hard to understand your post, but it seems beyond me. I'm not sure if it's your logic that's been selectively bred or my brain that's mutated, but there's something wrong somewhere.

Dinyar

Antman · Post by **Antman** » 23 Apr 2003, 00:47

Not to get off the subject, but it seems to me that there's a much better argument for GM agriculture than GM fish. GM agriculture has the potential to feed more people, provide better nutrition, reduce the use of pesticides... the list goes on and on. GM fish for a *hobby* is silly... of course, nobody is actually genetically modifying fish with the kind of precision that crops or research animals are being modified.

Unless I'm mistaken, a hormonally influenced fish may develop oddly, but would not propagate any deformity to offspring, if that deformity is only a feature of developmental tampering. A fish that grows long fins because of hormone treatment during development is no more likely to have long-finned offspring than a three legged dog injured in a car accident is to have tripod puppies. So, these fish aren't really mutated, just deformed... and because it doesn't affect the species' gene pools, there is really no long-term danger to the integrity of species etc etc. The main problems are suffering fish, hobbyists who don't know how their fish got to be the way they are, and a reason for breeders to continue such activities.

Good debate.

--Bryan

Caol_ila · Post by **Caol_ila** » 23 Apr 2003, 02:26

Hi!

Afaik the hormones are used to induce spawnings not to alter looks of fishes.

Imho its not possible to severely alter a species in a home tank. Just think how many breedings you achieve in a lifetime...with so many offspring...somebody just mentioned gm food as a new source (which i highly doubt, but german opinion on this is really different to american i believe) so why shouldnt "better" food not be good for the corys? if they keep their habits of eating it they wont change dramatically.

When i read how intelligent weve become and how great were doing thats just a farce. Our systems are f*cked up, were ruining the planet, were producing more and more people, wasting resources, chopping down woods. Impossible to break out of this. We wont be touched by this i hope but in a couple of hundred years this planet will be a dumpsite.

zac08 · Post by **zac08** » 23 Apr 2003, 02:51

A bit out of point, but look at the Betta Splendens...

It's original looks were simple... short tails, not much colours to choose from... But look at them now, double tails, veiltails, crowntails, deltas, super-deltas, half-moons, etc.... Colours too, black, white, pastels, and every other colour you could think of...

Is that manipulation for a hobby?? Is it successful??

I'll leave YOU to decide...

Caol_ila · Post by **Caol_ila** » 23 Apr 2003, 02:57

...and whos forcing the new colors and species forward? As Ian said Asia seems to be a market for it...to the rest it just swaps over the bucket rim.

Im in a german betta forum and the group keeping highvalue breeds is very small...one keeper says hes using breeding/genetics to keep his lines of endangered species "clean". Now thats a honorable thing! To me hes the highest respected fishkeeper!

Post by **Coryman** » 23 Apr 2003, 11:47

There ought to Fishkeeping Oscars for those breeders that breed and maintain TRUE species and masses of bad publicity for those that strive to make freeks.

Ian

corydorus · Post by **corydorus** » 24 Apr 2003, 06:45

Now we need to understand what the fish keeping hobby for. Not many do it to preserve the natural species, in reality. Is more of - Interest in Fishkeeping getting the best out of them.

But if we are talking about Breeding Pure strain for species presevation purpose, that's a different story all together.

Ironically, when the strain or aquarium trade species get better, poaching stop when nature cannot provide the Requirements traits for Fishkeeping Hobby.

Do Trader need to go to the wild to get Betta or Guppies ?

C. Paleatus, Long fin ??? High fin ???

C. Paleatus, Long fin ??? High fin ???

Ok

Natural Variety ??

Just so I understand...

Re: Just so I understand...

Man-made

Gm