Synodontis hybrids

lfinley58 · Post by **lfinley58** » 08 Aug 2006, 18:59

Hello all.

The topic of Synodontis hybrids (a topic not unheard of in this forum) is covered in the current issue of Aqualog News (No. 69). The article is ""Synos" en vogue Synodontis-Hybriden" by Harld Jahn. Two photographs each of two hybrids, which are reported to have their origin in Russia, are included.

The author's opinion is that "...there is nothing wrong with crosses per se." He follows up with "Problems arise only if these fishes...are sold as "new" species or under falsified species names. A hybrid should always be identified as such, anything else smacks of fraud."

Unfortunately, the last quote by the author is not likely to be accepted by all in the commercial world.

I guess that it does a service to discuss and illustrate two known hybrids, but personallly I would have prefered to have seen some "real" Synodontis covered.

Lee

grahams · Post by **grahams** » 10 Aug 2006, 11:09

Hi Lee,I recall having this discussion with you during our recent E.mail exchange when you kindly gave me some advice on my S.Granulosus.Personally I abhor hybrids, but it is so easy to get fooled by them when they are young.I posted something in the forum some weeks ago about hybrids and recieved just one response.I think I told you of them ,a leading English wholesaler X-ing female Eupterus with male Multipuncs and selling them as Pardalis.Selling them as hybrids is bad enough, but giving them a genuine valid name is deception.We have also seen ads for Granulosus again from a retailer this year,these also were hybrids.At least he had the decency to say they were when I asked him. A good friend of mine has also been caught out buying what he thought were baby 1.5" Multis` which now have no resemblance to the real fish,and I out of interest, bought some fish from my local LFS that were labelled as Nigromaculstus.I knew they weren`t genuine by the price alone,they were much to cheap, but was curious to see what they turned out like.Hybrid Syno`s or any hybrid fish, are a huge worry to me, but how do we stop them.Unfortunately there are too many shops around who don`t seem able to determine the difference between the hybrid and genuine article, and the last thing we want is to see them reviewed in the aquatic press.Incidentally,my grannys`doing great.

Post by **Marc van Arc** » 10 Aug 2006, 13:34

If this goes on it won't be long before we'll encounter longfinned, albino Synos in our LFS-ses. And it might get even worse: Parrot Synos; ugly, deformed and pathetic fishes that will surely cost a bunch and undoubtedly will attract lots of admirers.
A genuine nightmare scenario....

Mika · Post by **Mika** » 10 Aug 2006, 13:58

S.nigrita "gold"

[/quote]

Post by **Marc van Arc** » 10 Aug 2006, 14:23

Mimicry?? Paint all tank furniture white...

sidguppy · Post by **sidguppy** » 10 Aug 2006, 14:28

Grahams, you have the genuine granny or the hybrids?

it's a bit confusing, the post

Mika those 'Gold' Syno's must be the ugliest things I've seen in a long time, but they don't revulse me as bad as hybrids. after all even albino's still are 1 species and albinism is -I definitely don't like albino's- a natural phenomena.

I think maybe we should set up a sticky in the African section with a good supply of pix of hybrid Syno's; most of those fall into a few characteristics.
Sort of a warning to any potential "African-catfish" buyer; because the best remedy to traders and breeders ripping off potential customers is knowledge/education!

if we show what a hybrid is, compared to the real thing (putting the pics right next to each other!), anyone that makes the effort of reading up before shopping for any catfish for the 'African' tank will be warned beforehand.
seems to me like we have a very powerful weapon against the hybrids then.
we might even make a 'dent' in the sale, and hence fabrication, of these mutts.

Now it's almost always afterwards: people buy something, cannot get it determined, post it here: hybrid.
voila.
we can and should turn that around, shall we?

to list a few:
-There is for example the granny-hybrid wich has a grey color, small spots and a 'v' in the tail, but not the black and white finnage. the 'cheap granny'.
-the infamous Synodontis njassae! how many REAL njassae's have we seen lately in the trade? how many ocellifers/eupterus/hybrids sold as such with a 'njassae' pricetag attached? This particular species alone is plenty reason to set up a warning sticky in the African section: beware the fake-njassae!
-then there's the very ocellifer-lookalike multipunctatus hybrid.
-there are the various eupterus-looking extremely longfinned (dorsal) Syno's often sold as 'S velifer'
-and ofcourse the many "zebrinus" Syno's and similar looking "upside downers".

grahams · Post by **grahams** » 10 Aug 2006, 15:55

Marc, your fears are the same as mine but unfortunately these breeders usually find a market for them.Just look what happened with the Flowerhorn.I`m not saying that hybrid Synos` will go that far but I think you know what I mean.
Sid , yes my Granulosus is the genuine article, she looks superb and checks out with all others/pictures/photographs etc.I`ve seen and with anyone else who has seen her.I bought her through an LFS that I trust completely, who will only import them wild.The hybrids I mentioned in the earlier post, apparentally, had a "dip" in their head which also made it look wrong .(Sorry about the description,I don`t know any other way to describe it).I don`t know what was used for the cross either.
An English wholesaler has been selling, what he says, are genuine Granulosus,that were bred at his own facility.He has shown me the young, and broodstock, and I have to say they do appear to be genuine.I don`t think we`ll be reading any papers about the spawning any time soon,but who can blame him.It is a shame though that breeding hybrids puts doubts in your mind when something like this is probably genuine.
I so hate hybrids,why do we need them,doesn`t nature provide us with enough.Thanks Lee for raising the topic again,it`s good to know you are keeping an eye on us.

lfinley58 · Post by **lfinley58** » 10 Aug 2006, 19:04

Hi Graham, Sidguppy, Marc, Mica and all.

1. "Parrot Syno" - Marc, you are scaring me with this

2. Thanks to all for your comments. In that this topic has hit one of the slicks, it is worthy of discussion.

3. Re S. velifer - One of the "fishes" pictured (2 shots) in the article that I mentioned is noted to be a Russian hybrid "...very similar to the true Synodontis vellifer." If anyone reading this can get access to the mentioned magazine it would be worth checking out the pictures. The four photos in the article are by F. Schafer. Maybe if someone knows him, permission could be obtained to use the photos as a caveat emptor.

Lee

grahams · Post by **grahams** » 10 Aug 2006, 21:22

Hi Lee,Frank Schafer is quite a well known author on fishkeeping matters in Europe, and is well known for his work on several Aqualog books.I don`t know him personally,but I do know someone who does much of his translation work.I cannot make any promises, but I will contact her to see if she will try to obtain his permission to allow us to use some of the pics.She has some strong views herself on cichlid hybrids so she might help.All I can do is try.If I get anywhere I`ll get back in touch through the forum.
I hope your keeping well.
Graham

lfinley58 · Post by **lfinley58** » 10 Aug 2006, 22:09

Hi Graham,

Sounds great. I wish you luck.

Certainly I can't speak for Jools, but I suspect that (in the right area) he might like to use the pictures on the site if they were available (Jools???).

Lee

sidguppy · Post by **sidguppy** » 10 Aug 2006, 23:20

He has shown me the young, and broodstock, and I have to say they do appear to be genuine.I don`t think we`ll be reading any papers about the spawning any time soon,but who can blame him.It is a shame though that breeding hybrids puts doubts in your mind when something like this is probably genuine

I'm quite curious about what you have seen there, what the fry looked like, how their fins were colored up and all.

I've bumped into similar occasions and some people that told me they were breeding the genuine granny's. however once the young showed up in trade or on pictures; each and every single one was a mutt, a hybrid.
and then you get one-liners like "fry doesn't have the black and white fins; it developes later", or "I can't say what they looked like first, but this look is just a grow out phase" and all that crap.

IF someone succeeded in breeding the granulosus; it'd be frontpage-news in each and every single aquaristic magazine in the world! someone could get rich and fairly famous or at least very widely respected as a breeder who pulled off the impossible.
somehow keeping the breeding methods secret isn't a new scenario; that ethic has been in the hobby for a long time. but not even a single picture? ever? of a healthy 1 or 2" granny-baby?

all Synodontis species known lay loads and loads of eggs. even a single batch of a single fish would yield hundreds of baby granulosus. strangely enough not a single one ever has shown up in the trade anywhere! not here, not in Japan, not in the US.
LOADS of "baby granny's" DO show up; hybrids, every single one of them......
so excuse me but I think it IS a hoax until proven otherwise.

Mika · Post by **Mika** » 11 Aug 2006, 09:29

I think maybe we should set up a sticky in the African section with a good supply of pix of hybrid Syno's; most of those fall into a few characteristics.

I agree with this.

grahams · Post by **grahams** » 11 Aug 2006, 10:09

Hi Sidguppy,I understand your scepticism but I assure you I have seen the young fish.They actually looked like miniature adult Grannys.The colours are all correct, and there were about 50 at a guess, in the tank.He had about 6 adults all in seperate tanks, and all of the tanks, including the breeding tank, had bare bases.I can only tell you what I have seen and was told, but in this instance I have to say it looks genuine.At the time I was shown them they were about 1.5" but they wouldn`t sell them.I offered to buy 2 but was refused.Since then they have been offered to the trade, but haven`t been on their recent stocklists.At the time I saw them, they told me they were going to offer some as prizes for a competition for visitors to their stand at GLEE which is a pet traders show in England in September.I don`t know how they bred the fish, but the young man in charge of the breeding room, said it was natural i.e. they weren`t hybrids or hormones induced. When I was shown them I was speechless,he just took me to the tank to look at some youngsters and asked me if I knew what they were.Hoax? May be, but somehow it just seems genuine.

grahams · Post by **grahams** » 11 Aug 2006, 21:42

I feel I have to come back again on this point to challenge Sidguppy on his comments,as I find them quite out of order and unnecessary.I have seen the young "Granulosus" and they look the genuine article. I, with a colleague, saw the broodstock,and the babies were in full colour, we are both satisfied in our own minds that they are genuine.If they were doing scientific work or were just hobbyists,I would expect them to issue an article on the spawning process,but they are not just that,they are a commercial enterprise and why would they give away their secrets to others who would then become competition.It`s not in their best interests to do so.Until such times as they are spawning them in large numbers why would they give away their secrets or go to the aquatic press?The only thing I can tell you about the spawning is that the male and females were kept seperately,and brought together when conditioned,I was told no more than that. You say Sid that it is a hoax,I say may be,but its a darned good one if it is.There always has to be a first time for everything and spawning difficult fish has to be included in that.I firmly believe that the Granulosus spawning code has been cracked,it`s just not being shouted from the rooftops.

caught1 · Post by **caught1** » 17 Aug 2006, 02:39

Lot of good information here,one thing thats for sure anything is possible in this hobby.If I had spawned them sure would not be in a hurry for everyone to know till I had it down to a science.
I also tend to follow what I see with my own eyes not what someone on the internet tells me is not probable.I know breeders who could care less about the internet and those who post on it.Still many older people with much breeding knowlegde who refuse to go online and spend their time working with the fish .
I for one hope its true and will keep working with all my african cats because after all given the right conditions all will do what comes natural to them.

grahams · Post by **grahams** » 17 Aug 2006, 09:31

Thankyou for your response caught1,I agree with your sentiments completely.Who knows what goes on in peoples fish houses around the world.Just because something hasn`t been recorded in print doesn`t mean it hasn`t happened.I, and my colleague who was with me, remain convinced that what we have seen are genuine baby Granulosus and until someone can prove otherwise will remain so.

Richard B · Post by **Richard B** » 17 Aug 2006, 14:23

I agree - who knows what goes on, if people don't want to advertise it. With the probable exception of the giant catfish, RTC, TSN, Giraffe, Niger etc etc most fish, if available in the hobby, should be breedable by hobbyists if they want to.

it's not that long ago that fish weren't bred simply because of either availability of specimens, or cost of a breeding group. This is now the case for comparatively few species.

I've known of people who've had magnificent fish at home with no interst in showing their fish, despite, in my opinion, the fact they'd probably win or win something if they did.

I know of a chap who was a fisherman who caught some gudgeon & 2 of them were heavier than the (then)current british record for that species but he wasn't interested in getting his name on a record list.

The point is we only hear about stuff when it is advertised. people have a right to be sceptical because of the situation we are in where a species is proving really difficult & hybrids are being almost routinely passed off as the real thing. I have little doubt the babies Graham has seen are genuine based on his experince & what he has been told. Although this appears to be a success albeit a commercial secret, a photo released officially surely wouldn't hurt? I'd love to see them myself (as i'm sure others would). If Granny's have been bred - well done, I'm first in line to congratulate anyone, if it does turn out to be a hoax, & I hope not, they are only going to destroy their own credibility. if they have been bred by a commercial breeder by "natural methods" a hobbyist breeding them can't be too far behind given the dedication & resources of hobbyists these days.

All the best - Richard

grahams · Post by **grahams** » 18 Aug 2006, 16:20

At the beginning of this subject Lee Finley made reference to an article in Aqualog News regarding the coverage of hybrids in this journal.Lee asked if anyone new frank Schafer to ask his permission to perhaps use the photographs, on this website, as a warning against hybrid `Syno`s and to illustrate what these were like.
With aid from a good friend,6 pictues of the hybrids as jpegs(15x10cm at 72 dpi)can be seen at the following URL:www.aqualog.de/mary/syno.zip ,these can be downloaded but speed is required,as the files will only be there until early next week.All that is required by Frank is that if/when we use them on the site that we must credit them to him.
For those interested in the article itself it can be found as a read-only-version as part of the online edition FOC at http://www.aqualog.de/news/web69/syno69e.pdf
I am such a novice with computers that I don`t understand the full workings of them,I therefore hope someone will be interested enough to download them for future reference.
Ideal candidates for our "Rogues Gallery" perhaps?

YouTube · Post by **Jools** » 09 Sep 2006, 08:18

lfinley58 wrote:Certainly I can't speak for Jools, but I suspect that (in the right area) he might like to use the pictures on the site if they were available (Jools???).

Yes, indeed, always looking for new things although here it's not for promotion it's for education. I need something a bit firmer than just a link that I don't necessarily have permission to use the contents thereof.

Jools

lfinley58 · Post by **lfinley58** » 09 Sep 2006, 13:35

Hi Jools.

Your use of the site for education, and not promotion, is without question. If my message regarding the published photos of the Synodontis hybrids was unclear in regards to this I aplogize. I am in 100% agreement with your philosophy regarding the web use of photos and other materials that are rightly the property of others.

I do think it was great that Grahams was able to later provide a link to the article that I had mentioned so that anyone interested in the discussion, and not having access to Alog News, could see the pictures. It was my interpretation that this appeared to have been done with permission.

Lee

grahams · Post by **grahams** » 09 Sep 2006, 14:32

Hi Lee,regarding your post ,yes we did have permission.Frank actually provided 6 jpegs at the URL in my posting ,specifically for us to download.The Aqualog free unprintable copy of the article can of course be read by anyone.All Frank asked,as I stated in the posting was that he be credited for them if the site used them.
I believe you know Mary Bailey,well it was Mary who contacted Frank.At the time I posted the details, we only had until early the following week to download the pics. Because of my naevity with computers,and you were away on holiday in Florida, I posted the details on the forum on your behalf really,in the hope someone would download them,should the site wish to use them.
Anyway,I hope you enjoyed Florida.

Graham

YouTube · Post by **Jools** » 09 Sep 2006, 14:52

Well, I'd like to use them and will of course credit them,
there's just the "going round the houses" I don't quite have the appetite for it right now (flying out on vacation in the next few hours) but I'll try and remember to speak to Mary about it.

I was just making the point that I've been caught out by people offering pictures for me to use (often with the best of intentions) when the permission to use them isn't theirs to give. So, I just prefer to get to the source.

Jools

lfinley58 · Post by **lfinley58** » 09 Sep 2006, 15:03

Hi Jools and Grahams,

Jools: Your point is well taken - and understood. It can be well to easy to get into a tight squeeze without the proper caution. Have a great vacation!

Grahams: The trip to FL was great. Thanks again for getting the permissions to use the pictures as you did.

Lee