zebra candiru

pleco_breeder · Post by **pleco_breeder** » 29 Aug 2006, 08:59

Hello all,

I was asked by a friend to host these pics for ID. I tried to post the pics in the thread, but apparently cannot do so. I'll try this way.

If anybody has any ideas, let me know.

Thanks,

Larry Vires[/url]

Post by **Silurus** » 29 Aug 2006, 09:23

sidguppy · Post by **sidguppy** » 29 Aug 2006, 13:52

a very nice looking fish, but why it's imported baffles me....

it's completely unsuitable for captivity

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 29 Aug 2006, 14:19

Sidguppy, I agree with you from a "being sensible" perspective, but they should be possible to keep, by a dedicated keeper.

It's completely unsuitable for captivity in a community tank, but surely, if you have some (sacrificial) host/prey fish that they can be kept with, they would survive nicely.

I think a group of several gold-fish that are "cycled" through this fish's tank would be one way to solve this. It's probably better to keep large fish that are allowed to recover from the "attacks" for a few weeks in a different tank.

--
Mats

Waldo · Post by **Waldo** » 30 Aug 2006, 19:50

I was going to import them but now I have my doubts. would smaller fish have the same problems? say bleeding hearts?

YouTube · Post by **Jools** » 30 Aug 2006, 19:55

They also bite, jump and have opercular spines that make handling Ancistrus childsplay in comparison. They ARE very handsome fish for all that.

Jools

sidguppy · Post by **sidguppy** » 30 Aug 2006, 20:03

Bleeding hart is a kind of tetra or something?

those bloody common names arghk
xcuse me

You can safely assume that this critter will attack ANYTHING else in the tank, simply because it'll be starved on import.

I once kept an Ochmacanthus (wich has similar habits) and it attacked every single fish in the tank, ranging from 2" Pareutropius to 12" Pterodoras granulosus with a skin like old boots.

OK, you could probably keep such a fish in captivity with a rotating system of supplying with new hosts and letting the nibbled fish recuperate.

however, this is where ethics kick in and it's also certainly qualified as cruelty to animals in my book; both to host (deliberately damaging a fish with a known parasite) as well as with the catfish itself (deliberately importing something wich has severe feeding issues).

IMO these should be banned from import; period.
no discussion.

Waldo · Post by **Waldo** » 30 Aug 2006, 21:13

I'm wondering if a disected worm would provide the necissary source for them. granted they aren't going to share the same tanks but I do have a lot of worms on stock for the rays!.

pleco_breeder · Post by **pleco_breeder** » 30 Aug 2006, 21:37

Candiru hunt their prey by scent. Normally, they attack the gills of wild fish and find these by following the trail of ammonia as it is released. I can't really think of a way to duplicate this in captivity. If you decide that you are going to try these, just remember not to pee in the tank

Larry

sidguppy · Post by **sidguppy** » 30 Aug 2006, 22:57

This is not a classic Candiru.

there are several varieties on the theme; some -like Vandellia- hunt by scent using the ammonia-trail to suck blood from a gill.

these Trichomycterids hunt specifically for finparts, scales and mucus; others hunt for skinparts on the scaleless catfish, or even all of these (catfish and non catfish).

They're highly specialized fish that do NOT accept other foodsources.

it says in the link "obligate parasitism wich means that it MUST feed on a host.

otherwise it would be incipient parasitism.....

this occurs in Tridensimilis for example.
those tiny "glass Trichomycterids" accept artemia, bloodworms and the like, but also attack and scrape on tankmates. they have a huge 'overbite' covered with fine needlelike teeth that they use to scrape mucus etc off other fish.

Pseudostegophilus, Ochmacanthus etc don't show this behaviour and only feed on other fish.
on worms it would starve to death and the decaying worms will pollute the water adding to the succumbing of the fish.

WhitePine · Post by **WhitePine** » 31 Aug 2006, 02:21

We called these "jaguar Candiroo" not zebras when we collected them in Columbia. We thought they looked more like jaguar spots.

Brooklamprey · Post by **Brooklamprey** » 08 Sep 2006, 18:21

sidguppy wrote: They're highly specialized fish that do NOT accept other foodsources.

it says in the link "obligate parasitism wich means that it MUST feed on a host.

otherwise it would be incipient parasitism.....

this occurs in Tridensimilis for example.
those tiny "glass Trichomycterids" accept artemia, bloodworms and the like, but also attack and scrape on tankmates. they have a huge 'overbite' covered with fine needlelike teeth that they use to scrape mucus etc off other fish.

Pseudostegophilus, Ochmacanthus etc don't show this behaviour and only feed on other fish.
on worms it would starve to death and the decaying worms will pollute the water adding to the succumbing of the fish.

This is actually not quite true. Pseudostegophilus nemerus are not obligate 'parasites' and feed on a variety of other items. It is true though that the mainstay of their diet consists of mucus and scales. To house them properly one would be required to provide them with this diet. I in fact feed mine a varied diet and they are not "starving". Keep in mind also that these fish are scavengers above all and actually do not require that a "host" fish is alive for it to feed. The P.nemerus as well as a few other scale / mucus feeding stegophilines in my possesion are fed off of frozen whole dead fish that are thawed out then placed in the tank. They feed just as well once adapted to this as they do on a live prey item.

These fish by all means though are not community fish and they will attack about any sized fished placed in with them. These fish are very suited to captivity in every regard other than this. To say it is un-ethical to feed these fish a required diet is a bit baffling as is it to say they are not suited to captivity because of their diet. This above information about how to go about feeding them is why I personally take offence to this following statement:

IMO these should be banned from import; period.
no discussion.

There is no doubt that these fish require a very experianced and knowledgeable keeper but to say these fish should not be imported or kept in anyway is a bit like sticking your head in the sand and pretending they do not exist. I have dedicated a number of tanks specificly to the study of these fish as the information about them is lacking in more than one way. One only needs to read this thread from an informed perspective to make a point of this as there are some glaring errors in the information contained and being stated as fact. Vandellia for example do not nessesarly use the scent or ammonia trail of a prey item, this has been demonstrated in a few studies (Spotte 2001). The exact mechanics of how these fish locate and sense prey is much more complex than this simple theory and more likely an combination of sight, electroreception and other chemeosensory processes. We actually can not say how they locate prey for the very solid fact we have no data on it. This remains unknown at this time. This lack of real information is a common thread over the entire Trichomycteridae family. In the above it is also assumed that only live prey / host items are needed to feed scale eating stegophilines. This is not fact and is in error due to the real lack of available husbandry information on these fish that is published at this time.

You do not learn about an animal nor can you come up with a husbandry protocal for them if you do not actually house them and work with them. Ignorance is not bliss.

If you feel they are not right for you... thats fine do not keep them.. However, do not say that these fish should not be kept if you have issues only on the basis of "ethics".

Your ethics are not my ethics. My ethics tell me that we need to understand these fish for what they are and not the myths attached to them. To do that... I keep them, study them, and activily work toward understanding of them.

sidguppy · Post by **sidguppy** » 08 Sep 2006, 19:18

but to say these fish should not be imported or kept in anyway is a bit like sticking your head in the sand and pretending they do not exist

That's a comparison as bad as anything I've ever seen!
this means you're saying that ANY fish that exists should be kept in captivity because it exists??

now THAT's what I call NON-ethical and yes, you can quote me on that one!
garbage, really. There's a LOT of animals out there that should be protected or at least allowed to survive in their natural habitat (and ofcourse protect that as well) that do not belong in captivity, period.
or do you want to keep baleen whales, white rhino's, siberian tigers, tse tse flies, tresher sharks, giant squid etc "because they exist" and hence "not keeping them in captivity = sticking your head in the sand"??
balderdash!

want to see them anyway? buy a ticket to Brazil, get a license to SCUBA dive, get yourself some serious equipment.......

there's a HUGE LOAD of fishes that should be scrapped from importers lists actually; simply because the lot of them are almost literally 'tortured to death' in too small tanks, starved to death with the wrong kinds of food etc.
fish like the South American Redtail, the TSN, the Mother of Snails cat etc etc etc.
and these Trichomycterids as well.

a few available for science? fine with me.
but importing truckloads of them for the average hobbyist that cannot keep them properly and hence only 0,001% of these actually survive the first few weeks in captivity?
NO
definitely wholly onehundredandeighty % UNethical, yes.
because something alive exist, does NOT give man the 'right' to exploit, export and hence destroy it.
period.

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 08 Sep 2006, 19:56

I think these parasitic cats are on the banned species list under Federal law. To knowingly import them could result in a sticky situation in customs if someone realizes what they are.
This is a very attractive form of candiru and it is,laws aside, an interesting species to study for a specialist. I received 25 as S.A. Kuhlii Loaches back in the early 70's and recognized them for what they were. I did'nt sell any because I knew nobody would be willing to provide for their proper care. Mine were all plain brown.
If they will accept worms that would definitely make things easier. I basically let mine die off because I did'nt care for them and was'nt willing to provide them hosts.
I hope you will be able to find a substitute food they will accept as they are nicely marked if not a little creepy.

Brooklamprey · Post by **Brooklamprey** » 08 Sep 2006, 21:27

this means you're saying that ANY fish that exists should be kept in captivity because it exists??

Please read what I wrote because that was not what I said and to relate Baleen whales and rhinos to Trichomycterids is about as far as a jump as you can get. 99% of the Trichomycterid catfishes are very suitable to an aquarium. The other 1% (Vandellia) are FOR THOSE that are willing to deal with them in a serious manner.

Your attitude toward them is one where you wish for them to just go away and not be available to anyone over some ethical problem you have with them that is not really based on anything sound or really even factual information about them. This is really an issue of your own and not for anyone that wishes to keep these fish.

I personally find it disheartening to see someone respond to a question about these very interesting fish with:

a very nice looking fish, but why it's imported baffles me.... it's completely unsuitable for captivity

You clearly do not know anything about the husbandry of these fish so should really keep your crusade of ethics to yourself and allow someone with real world experiance in the husbandry of the fish respond to it with accurate information. Grown ups can make up there mind if a species is suitable or not for them. They do not need you to tell them.

Truckloads of these fish will never be imported as there is no market for them on a commercial level. There never will be a market for them on a commercial level.
These fish are extremely rare to find on a commercial dealers list. The only way to actually get these fish is to have them collected and imported for you specially and this costs quite a deal of money for the average hobbyist.

I really do not think you need to be very concerned about this "truckloads" being imported with 1% surviving.

I think these parasitic cats are on the banned species list under Federal law. To knowingly import them could result in a sticky situation in customs if someone realizes what they are.

This is not the case. They were proposed under the Lacey act to be added but never where. In some states however they are Illegal to possess or import.

This is a very attractive form of candiru and it is,laws aside, an interesting species to study for a specialist

This I wholeheartedly agree with!!

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 08 Sep 2006, 22:20

brooklampery,
Your username is so apropo. You are eaxactly the kind of person I had in mind when I referred to "specialist". I knew that some states had laws against this group I think my own state of Washington is one of them. These legislatures are so ill=informed about what species constitute a threat. The same states release alien species far more threatening than the candiru and piranhas in the Northern tier states. I only knew that it was on a proposed list. It was wrong to assume that the Feds had done so but I think my statement was somewhat qualified enough to avoid too much heat. I think that as lab subjects these are an extremely interesting study of evolutionary and behavioral biology. I'm pleased to see work with them such as your's is being done.
I was not aware that candirus came in such attractive color patterns as my own exprience consists of only one brown type which as I said did not get much respect. I was about 18 years old while running my LFS and still had much to learn. I probably would have tried to learn more about them in captivity if I knew what I do today I just won't be actively seeking any out.