Syno multi..... BREEDING!!!

Derpeder · Post by **Derpeder** » 07 Aug 2006, 19:26

I AM going to breed these fish. I love them so much. Does anyone know where I can buy a breeding pair of them?

Let me know. I have two in my tank now but they are not mature.

Thanks

sidguppy · Post by **sidguppy** » 07 Aug 2006, 20:50

For best results keep them as a group.
in the group pairs will form once a female is 'ripe' and a host-cichlid is spawning. the males will battle each other for dominance and the dominant male will spawn with the female and the mouthbreeders.

best results are some Malawians and a load of Victorian mouthbreeders, but Victorians ned to be stripped once they carry syno-eggs and fry.

Derpeder · Post by **Derpeder** » 07 Aug 2006, 23:30

Thats good to know. Do you have any idea where I can get a mature breeding pair of Syno Multi's?

Plus will like Kenyi's or Yellow labs work to breed the Catfish. I heard that yellow labs are to smart, and will not work.

sidguppy · Post by **sidguppy** » 08 Aug 2006, 10:31

I have no idea where to buy them (check my location!

) never been in the USA.

but I heard about Arke's? maybe he's ok?

Post by **Marc van Arc** » 08 Aug 2006, 11:38

Derpeder wrote:I heard that yellow labs are to smart, and will not work.

Perhaps yellow labs overhere are less smart; I can tell you from my own experience that it works.
BTW: Labeotropheus are good hosts as well.

Derpeder · Post by **Derpeder** » 08 Aug 2006, 19:09

YEah I thought that Yellow labs would work. I heard from others that they used them as well then I had some body tell me, "I know 100% that yellow labs will NOT work." they must have tried and failed with them or something. I don't know.

Anyway.........thanks.

zenyfish · Post by **zenyfish** » 08 Aug 2006, 20:15

sidguppy wrote:... but Victorians ned to be stripped once they carry syno-eggs and fry.

I'm not following.

Do Victorian need to be stripped only when they mouthbrood synos? Why?

Or is it because Victorians are stripped so much, they are not imprinted with how to spit?

Post by **Barbie** » 08 Aug 2006, 23:48

Yellow labs don't work as well due to their smaller mouth size. They do eventually get smart enough to learn to spawn up on top of the rockwork to keep away from the synos, also. I would definitely recommend the victorian haps, instead. I do know people using Aulonocara and other fish as hosts, also. Basically the Victorians work better because they tend to spawn regularly and don't let anything or anyone dissuade them from the idea, once they get started.

On a side note, I've got a colony I could probably be talked into selling and I'm planning a trip to Seattle at the end of the month. Feel free to pm me, if you'd like.

Barbie

sidguppy · Post by **sidguppy** » 09 Aug 2006, 09:48

I'm not following.

Do Victorian need to be stripped only when they mouthbrood synos? Why?

Or is it because Victorians are stripped so much, they are not imprinted with how to spit?

it goes like this:
if you have a mediumsized mouthbreeding cichlidspecies, the spiny baby catfish 'fit' in the mouth of the female cichlid, and also important: those babies can be spat out......
In the Lake Tanganyika the most common host is Ctenochromis horei, a fish with a fairly large mouth (it's partly piscivore) wich reaches a length of 4-6", males can reach 7".
Next in line in the wild is Simochromis wich reaches 4" (female S babaulti) or even 6-7" (female S diagramma) and more rarely the Featherfin species of Ophtalmotilapia of wich the females all reach at least 4".

unfortunately these are all hard to keep fish, let alone usable as a host for the Chuckoo Cat. Ctenochromis has an insanely huge intraspecies agression (often only 1 of a whole group survives) and is a very rare import; Simochromis also are very nasty and have food issues wich makes them bad companions in a Synodontis setup (like Tropheus, Simochromis can and do die on wrong, protein rich food). Ophtalmotilapia is a popular fish, but a bit fragile. and it only breeds well in a tank without much disturb.

In captivity if you use similarsized cichlids (Yellow Lab-females reach 4-5" in captivity; Labeotropheus females do too) there are no problems either; these fish can also carry a spiny catfishbaby in their mouth and get rid of it.
A known breeder here in NL has used Otopharynx lithobates very succesfully for years; this is a medium 5-7" Malawian with a nice easy going nature. and proven to be working quite well is Placidochromis electra (see breeding article HERE wich proves P electra to be a good host).
Maybe also workable would be Haps like Sciaenochromis freyeri -known as 'Ahli'- or one of the big Nimbochromis or Fossochromis species.

Many breeders complain about Malawians being bad hosts; they seem to 'learn' quickly and can drop the small Syno-eggs through the gills while saving their larger eggs (Aulonocara, many Mbuna). But the large Nimbochromis and Fossochromis have many small eggs.....female F rostratus even
look like giant female C horei with their yellowgreenish color and striped-spotted pattern and pointed snout.
I think THE reason why large Haps aren't popular with breeders is that such fish need large tanks to be happy and breed in. I for sure wouldn't dare to keep the Fossochromis or Nimbochromis in anything less than 6 foot long or less than 125G.

Now after this sidetracking to the Victorians (did you notice I can be longwinded when discussing breeding African catfish? I noticed you noticing. you shouldn't let me get distracted like that, you know

).
Victorian cichlids are small!
When people talk about 5" being big enough for example Pundamilia neyerei they forget it's only the male that grows that big.....
Female Vics are really small! they breed at 2" and rarely reach 3"......and hence their mouths are small too.
when they carry catfish-eggs in their mouth and the catfish developes its' spines, they won't be able to spit it out anymore

wich results in a dead host and dead catfish-fry.
and baby Syno's grow faster than you think!

to avoid this nasty thing from happening remember always to strip Victorian cichlids when you use them as a host for the Chuckoo Cat!

zenyfish · Post by **zenyfish** » 09 Aug 2006, 11:11

Sid ... thanks so much for the explanation.

I assume Dimidiochromis would be a good Malawian host with their large mouth. D. compressiceps being a easy going fish.

The other reason I thought of for stripping was that once the catfish consumed the host eggs and fries, they may turn cannibalistic. So stripping may save some of the smaller catfish fries.

redzebra24 · Post by **redzebra24** » 11 Aug 2006, 03:08

i have a quad 2m 2f and no luck yet

pturley · Post by **pturley** » 15 Aug 2006, 20:11

Sid's fears of the catfish fry getting stuck in female victorian cichlids mouth's is in my experience unfounded.

Dimidiochromis IMO would be a bad choice as they are large, well armed and quite capable of defending their nests from the Catfish.

It's been a few years since I bred these fish (other than the pair I have left casting eggs without a host once in a while) but I used Victorian cichlids for years (approaching 1000 catfish offspring).
I have never had a female cichlid expire due to a cat getting stuck.

Many species of Malawian (Mbuna, Scianochromis, Nimbochromis, Labidochromis, Aulonocara and various "Utaka") learn not to be parasitized by these cats and quit spawning.

Why strip victorian's when spawning Multis? Based on numbers I have personally collected.
If you strip at 2-3 days post spawn, you may collect from ZERO to as many as 88 catfish eggs and newly hatched fry from ONE female cichlid.
If you strip at one week post spawn, you might collect as many as a 15 catfish, by then well formed, pigmented little PacMen that feed VERY aggressively.
If you don't strip and let the female brood to term, you might get as many as three catfish.
These are ACTUAL NUMBERS I recorded between 1994 and 1999.

Also, when brooding the catfish eggs in a tumbler and feeding BBS 3-4 times per day, I had about a 80% success ratio raising the fry.
Lastly, when fed heavily with frequent (sometimes daily) waterchanges, the cats grew to 1" long in 4 weeks. The growth rate was simply amazing.

Derpeder · Post by **Derpeder** » 15 Aug 2006, 22:18

Okay SO I have found someone that is willing to sell me 4 syno multi's that are mature. They said that the catfish have bread before so I am going to buy them. Currently I have Kenyis in my tank that breed alot and I also have yellow labs that breed a lot. Should I try it out with the kenyis and Labs or do you think I should just go get some vics.

And also for those of you that breed them. What do you do with all the fry? Sell them? My LFS said they would buy them from me for about $10-$12 at 1 - 1.5 inches, but I don't think they will buy all of them at once. Where else do you sell them?

zenyfish · Post by **zenyfish** » 15 Aug 2006, 23:03

pturley wrote: Why strip victorian's when spawning Multis? Based on numbers I have personally collected.
If you strip at 2-3 days post spawn, you may collect from ZERO to as many as 88 catfish eggs and newly hatched fry from ONE female c*****d.
If you strip at one week post spawn, you might collect as many as a 15 catfish, by then well formed, pigmented little PacMen that feed VERY aggressively.
If you don't strip and let the female brood to term, you might get as many as three catfish.
These are ACTUAL NUMBERS I recorded between 1994 and 1999.

Very informative stats ... thanks!

toddnbecka · Post by **toddnbecka** » 16 Aug 2006, 08:49

Post them in the forums, or list them on aquabid if you have too many for the lfs to handle. There is usually a good demand for multi fry.

caught1 · Post by **caught1** » 16 Aug 2006, 23:13

I have some in a group and a pair with host fish and the pair produce more for me . i think the larger number of cats disrupt the spawning by compeating with each other.
I have also found that if you strip to late the catfish will eat each other if they run out of cichlid eggs.

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 17 Aug 2006, 04:39

I was posting just to let you jnow that Seattle has a wholesaler that has long been long involved with African fish and that you should'nt find them too hard to get there.
You beat me to it and quickly found them so you are almost already there. Barbie's yellow labs are really nice and if that one you like her's would be about as nice as you're likely to find anywhere and to be able to get them hand delivered,you would have a short wait to find out whether your catfish are breeders or not.
Larry

Syno multi..... BREEDING!!!

Syno multi..... BREEDING!!!

breeding multis