Which whiptail?

[seven]

Hello.
So far I have had these guys ID'd as Sturisoma Festivum, Sturisoma Panamense and Sturisoma Barbatum.
The pics aren't brilliant, but was wondering if anybody could hazzard a guess?
Thanks.








Edit. My apologies. I've read the sticky, and don't know where I've gone wrong posting pics.

[seven]

Sorry. Still canâ??t make it work. **MOD EDIT: Pics fixed now - Jools **

[Shane]

Seven,
You apppear to have two species there. The top two pics (of the 2nd post) are Sturisoma aureum and the third pic is of Sturisomatichthys leightoni. Note the dark saddle marking just before the dorsal fin in the S. leightoni. S. aureum are collected in the lower Rio Magdalena, Colombia for the trade and the S. leightoni are often mixed in as "by-catch."
-Shane

[seven]

Many thanks for that Shane.

[sidguppy]

You sure, Shane?
because this 'saddlemark' in the brown patch, just in ront of the dorsal inplant is also common in S festivum. unless we have many Sturisomatichthys here and no true Sturisoma festivums ofcourse.

that explains why my "Sturisoma's' won't grow anymore, but already spawned 2 times (leightoni's are smaller).
lost the eggs to the other cats, but still.

is it also characteristic for S leightoni to have many fine lines in between the big brown patches/ on the head and back before the dorsal?
and S leightoni females can be hairy too? right now I got 2 hairy fish (sideburns that is), but I also have spawnings and eggs with one of them trying to guard those after spawning, so obviously it's a pair

but they look like carboncopies. the female used to be 'hairless' but not so anymore.

[Janne]

To make this discussion even more confused, I think that the first 2 pics shows Sturisoma festivum or two very small S. aureum, the third pic is S. aureum and mature but not fully grown. The saddle mark is not clearly at youngsters but with the time they grow it will be very clear and if so, thats S. aureum, if the dark markings on the head remains straight with growth and their pectoral fins and the dorsal fins will grow filaments, thats S. festivum.
But I have not seen S. festivum imported for many years but they are still bred in europe.

I know there have been many discussions about these species and special S. aureum and S. festivum, I have had both species under regular basis (and still have S. aureum that today should be more then 10-12 years old) since the middle of 80's and also discussed this with other like Ingo Seidel. In the second edition (english) of the Catfish Atlas on page 514 we can see S. aureum from above and the visible marks that forms a "saddle", in the first edition this species was called Sturisoma sp "Colombia".

Janne

[Shane]

I am 100% sure of the identifications above based on personal collecting trips in the Rio Magdalena and watching 1,000s of S. aureum and by-catch go through the exporters in Bogota. There is a second larger Sturisoma sp. that also comes in via the lower Magdalena. In the hobby we typically call this sp. S. panamense. This ID may be correct as the current "official" distribution of S. panamense includes Colombia.

S. aureum collected from the Magdalena


Sturisomatichthys leightoni collected from the Magdalena


S. panamense shipped to Bogota from northern Colombia


I strongly doubt that S. festivum has ever been imported for the aquarium trade as it is restricted to the Maracaibo Basin of Venezuela. I believe that what we call "S. festivum" in the hobby is likely an undescribed Amazonian sp. since shipments of this fish originate in Peru.
The holotype is here (scroll to the last fish).
http://www.calacademy.org/research/icht ... ricariidae

-Shane

[Janne]

Sturisomatichthys leightoni have a short rostrum and a more compact body, dont reach the same lenght that S. aureum.

Sturisomatichthys leightoni from the Cat-eLog.


S. aureum have a long rostrum, the longest in this group ( S.aureum, festivum and panamense) from this area and special in females.
This pic http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/albu ... pic_id=680 shows what I believe is S. aureum and S. festivum

Under the different stage of age and size S. aureum and S. leightoni can look similar, I have breed both S. aureum and S. festivum since the 80's and it has always been discussed which is which and if S. aureum realy are that one that have been in the trade.

Shane,

I maybe is wrong and I know you have done a lot of research and have seen 1000's of this species when you lived in Colombia and I have no doubts about that...I whish I could do the same. For me your three pics shows the same species but at different age and size, a youngster first, second a subadult and last pic a small adult male...all S. aureum.

S. aureum origin from Rio Magdalena and should be videly distributed in that drainage, S. festivum origin from Rio Catatumbo (Colombia) and the Maracaibo basin (Venezuela) that river ends in Maracaibo basin so they are conected.
S. panamense have I never seen in the trade under all the years I have kept fishes and I started for over 35 years ago, but what I have understand is that S. panamense even should live in Colombia near the border to Panama except in Panama of course.

The parents of S. aureum in my pic was cought in Rio Magdalena, S. festivum I have not succed to confirm their origin more then they was exported for many years ago from Colombia and I have not seen them in the trade since that.

Janne

[Shane]

Janne,
Note that the fish you posted above from the Cat-eLog is the same fish I posted above. Both are S. leightoni. The dark saddle band at the dorsal and short rostrum are easily identifiable features for this sp.

The fish in the link you provided is S. aureum just as in the first photo I posted above. Once again, they are the same fish. Note the dark lateral marking that rises up and continues up the first dorsal rays, the very gracile body, and the longer rostrum.

The fish is the link you posted labelled S. festivum is almost certainly not for the reasons I posted above. Yes, the Cataumbo originates in Norte de Santander, but that is a VERY dangerous area and no tropical fish collection takes place there. Rarely a shipment will show up in Bogota from the area around Cucuta, but these animals are collected near the town and not from the Catatumbo.

The final pic I posted is the sp. we typically call S. panamense in the hobby. I can not confirm the identity, but have no reason to doubt it. It is a much more robust sp that grows larger than S. aureum and has a shorter rostrum.
I wish I would have taken photos of all three spp together when I had access to large numbers of them.
-Shane

[ncanavan]

Just to add to the confusion - the picture posted by Shane as "Sturisomatichthys leightoni collected from the Magdalena"
is the same image listed under Sturisoma aureum in the Cat-elog.

How do the genera Sturisomatichthys and Sturisoma differ in their scientific descriptions?

Niall