Cracking the Emperor's Code. 56k Warning, lots of pix!

[sidguppy]

About 7 months ago, I purchased 4 Synodontis granulosus; 2 males (a smaller beauty and a big beat-up monster) and 2 females (a big one and an ever bigger one).
not just for keeps, but with the aim of breeding this yet unbreedable Jewel of the Rift!
So far I've seen lots of fascinating behaviour from the most intelligent catfish I've kept to date, but apart from handfeeds and sheer beauty nothing that gave me goosebumps.

until a few weeks ago.....when I saw the smallest male and one of the females "gliding through" the tank. usually the big females don't want either male too close, the Granny-universe is definitely the matriarchial one!
mom wears the pants so to speak
so watching a female slowly cruising the tank, a male nibbling her ventrals for minutes on end and she sort of dazed, sometimes lying on the sand.....
it's happening right now again, and I was quick enough to grab the cam and shoot.
cleaning the window was a no-go; that would definitely scare the fish and hence spoil this behaviour!

DISCLAIMER: forget about fuzzy pix, scratches, algae and bad quality pix, what you see is what I saw just 15 minutes ago....


It dropped my jaw, alright; so I'd thought I'd share it with you!

[Barbie]

Oh Sid!!! Congrats! That's awesome . Hopefully now you'll be able to figure a way to collect eggs! Did you see any at all? Or just the precursors?

Lucky dog ;).

Barbie

[Birger]

So what is the next step,that would be a good sized marble trap ,or you going to just dive in with a net when they start spewing eggs?

Good work

Birger

[sidguppy]

These 2 are going to a special tank, but that tank is stuffed with a breeding colony of Burundi petricola's and halfgrown Xenotilapia and Cyathopharynx.
Once the Tropheus are gone from the showtank (within a month, it's planned), all those fish are going to the showtank.

I build up two oversized marble traps with oversized marbles already.
A colony of Limia's is "saturating" the water with hormones, something that defenitely worked with the Burundi petri's, see my other post on those.

haven't seen any eggs yet, but I DID spot the female "wriggling" her belly in the sand, and a distened papilla. she's still fat as a hog, though.
maybe they bury the eggs? maybe those eggs are sticky?
They didn't try to foist them off on my Tropheus, despite the fact that it's high time right now, and many females carry. that might trigger the granny's (all those pheromones), but they didn't even remotely try to intervene with Tropheusspawning (or with other fish; there's a bunch of cavebrooders spawning as well; Julidochromis regani and Telmatochromis dhonti)

I have a hunch that petricola does this as well; the fresh laid eggs are notoriously sticky and they always try to get themselves real deep in the marbles (or in dense bushes of Anubias in the showtank).
I've seen my Synodontis polli spawning once, and that one "wriggles" in the sand. unfortunately those eggs fungused within 24 hours. talking about true polli's btw, not the unnamed "polli White" from Zambia wich is bred in captivity on a fairly large scale. This is the contrasting fish people usually buy as plain S polli, but the true polli is a brown, widemouthed monster.

unlike S multipunctatus that truly scatters the eggs when they cannot find or use a host. I've seen those spawning as well, with and without a host.
for obvious reasons the last species has non-sticky eggs.

[Ron]

Awesome news and pics!

[bronzefry]

It's so difficult to think to get the camera, nevermind to get it to function properly when you see something exciting like that. Keep up the great work, Sid! Spectacular!

[CEfire]

Hey Sid,

Just wanted to see if you had an update coming anytime soon. See any eggs or any more "strange" behavior?

[sidguppy]

well, the days after the spawning (yes they did! or females have a new way invented to loose a significant amount of weight and bellysize overnight ) were filled with fighting.....

they look really crappy now, although they're healing fast and well.

they're a bit more shy too, less visible.
I'm getting them spawnready again though.

I've heard that warm summerweather stimulates them in this regard, and here summer finally started.

I checked the biofilter with a flashlight but didn't spot anything in there.
didn't found any eggs either.

but the fact that this so far unbreedable species finds my tank nice enough to show displays and probably spawns in there, gives me great hope in getting the job done.

[sidguppy]

A bit odd reviving a post that's been dead for a year, but since it's my own, ah well.....

update on the granny breeding try-out.

sum it up: still haven't budged. once apart in a tank of their own the pair decided that nipping and annoying each otrher 24/7 was way better than trying to spawn.

The other Tangs I set out to breed are almost all a success, I even sold a fair bunch of youngsters from Lophiobagrus cyclurus to German catfishkeepers (thru Dhonti) and I supplied a whopping load of tanganyika-hobbyists with the Burundi-petri's.

And then I sort of 'closed shop' , sold off my breeding pairs of L cyclurus, L brevispinis, P typus, S petricola Burundi, the Featherfins, the shellies, the other Lamprologines, the Tropheus before that (traded those for Featherfins), bred and sold Telmatochromis dhonti, sold off my 4 ellipsifer eels and kicked out 5 breeding tanks......

I almost quit fishkeeping alltogether!

but now I go for the 'minimalistic approach, also with the granny's. I gave back the second pair of granny's long ago, saved a load of cash and bought 3 'new' ones to accompany my matching pair
ditched ALL the cichlids in my showtank save for 24 Cyps, and apart from 2 Garra's (good algae eaters) the only fish in my big showtank are 5 S granulosus; 3 females, 2 males, all of various sizes, the female in the pics above is the biggest (and the bossiest!).

hopefully it works!
I got 1 other Tang-tank (I still have my riverine catfishtank too, although it soon will loose a lot of fish as well) and there my 'minimal scenario' seems to work: only 2 species in there: Xenotilapia ornatipinnis and my 5 good ol' Synodontis polli (the brownie S 'eurystomus', not those Zambian 'polli White')
today I have seen the S polli spawning!
no eggs yet, but definitely spawning behaviour (males wrapping around females' heads and all that) in a species that's not bred yet AFAIK

praying for a big thunderstorm and having 2 small tanks ready for any Syno-eggs now; a drop in airpressure might have spectaculair results, at least I hope it does

Sid

[CEfire]

Thanks for the update Sid. Keep the reports coming, its always interesting to hear how a real 'pro' does it

BTW - What size tank do you keep those 5 big Grannys in?

[Greggo]

Hey Sid,

I just got home from work and saw something I've never seen before. All of the Synodontis in my 300 gallon frontosa tank were out and frantically about in the middle of the day feeding. The frontosas were gobbling down food frantically, too. The giraffe cat was vacuuming up something like he hadn't eaten in months. Since I just got home and hadn't fed them yet I was curious to see what they were eating.

There were hundreds of Synodontis eggs all over the tank. I know that they are Synodotis eggs since I have bred S. multipunctatus and S. petricola before and have seen their eggs. They were pin head sized and totally clear. They would be almost invisible to someone who had not seen Synodontis eggs before. I just missed seeing the spawning, but witnessed the aftermath.

The bad news is that the fish gobbled up most of the eggs. The good news is that I have lace rock in the tank that has many fine holes in it that eggs can get down into to avoid being eaten. These are the same lace rocks I had in a Tropheus community tank that saved the petricola eggs before from becoming a meal.

What species of Synodotis spawned here? I don't know since I did not see the event. The two species I have in this tank are S. granulosus and S. tanganyicae

[Greggo]

Update: In the excitement of seeing the Synodontis eggs, I failed to notice that the frontosas spawned today also. Did a cuckoo spawn occur?

Again there is good news and bad news. This is a young group of F0 frontosas (C. gibberosa, Moba). Zaire Blue Frontosas are notorious egg spitters that do not brood their eggs full term in captivity. Especially for young females spawning for the first time.

[sidguppy]

Hi Greggo

that's great indeed....maybe the Syno's were triggered into spawning once the Moba's did their thing?

not flat out chuckoo, but triggered by the dose of hormones/pheromones that escaped when the Moba's went at it.....
I know a very similar mechanism works to get petricola's into spawning as well as the popular Synodontis "polli White".
hence me fooling around with guppies and the like.

how many granny's do you have? ratio?
and how big are the tanganicae? because that's supposed to be a very large Syno when adult; 50 cm and more (2 feet?).
maybe like S dhonti there are dwarfforms of S tanganicae, but otherwise if yours are small, it's more likely to have been the granny's.......

sure you didn't see 'weird' behaviour?

mine are right in the middle of a fiercely territorial battle nowadays, and 1 male and 1 female have a rasped up head now (it'll heal; these critters are amazingly tough); wich makes me wonder if they have the thick granulated skin on their heads for this purpose.
like some sharkspecies (like the White tip Reefshark) that have thick skins because they bite each other a lot.

I can touch their heads (they're tame; handfeedable) and it feels like rubber, not like a slimey fishhead like all the other cats I have. definitely very rubbery.

[Greggo]

I have 2m and 3f grannies in the tank. I have a 3rd male, but he is too pretty to put in with the group. He's ink black with super long barbels and fins, so I don't want him messed up by those big females. I have had this group for about 5 years and they have been in with spawning Tanganyikan cichlids before, but no action. Maybe they have recently reached maturity?

The tanganyicaes, 6 of them, range from 5 inches to 11 inches. One female is 10 inches and 2 males are 11 inches. They all have a spotted (juvenile) pattern still, but I have seen courtship behavior from them like you described.

So, it could have been either species that spawned. Hopefully, a few eggs found their way into a crevice and can survive. If the giraffe cat is going to be vacuuming up eggs as they are produced, I may have to part with him . I've had him for about 5 years, too.

[sidguppy]

They all have a spotted (juvenile) pattern still

they'll stay that way.
unlike S dhonti, S tanganicae stays a spotted fish, also when mature up to 2 feet.

yeah, I know about pretty granny's that can be made a fair bit less pretty by a big angry female.

strangely enough my dominant male still is fairly good looking, despite the 'attentions' of the big bully female.

right now I'm into experiments wityh food.
the only inhabitants are Cyps and 2 Garra's, so IF the granny's spawn I hope that many eggs survive long enough for me to get out the hose and vacuum them to a running breedertank.

[Zoopse4Lyf3]

Sid, I have to ask about your account of S. multipunctatus spawning. You say that the cuckoo catfish will scatter its eggs if no host cichlid species is present, but all of the liturature and my own observations show that S. multipunctatus is an obligate brood parasite. If what you observed is true it would mean that the cuckoo's parasitism is only facaltative. Could it be possible that you were mistaken on the speices of the fish, or that the eggs you observed were from another species? Out of all my cuckoo breeding tanks not one has substrate spawned, either with or without the host species present.

Also, every cuckoo egg I have stripped has some sort of adhesive coat on the exterior of the chorion. While it may be less effective than that of other species, it is enough to adhere to host cichlid eggs as well as one another. I often have the problem of six or so cuckoo eggs totally encompassing a host egg. Of the 300 S. multipunctatus eggs I've obtained this summer, not one of them has lacked this adhesive coat.


Indeed, your progress with S. granulosus is amazing. Kudos.

[sidguppy]

Could you post that one in one of the many posts about S multipuncs? to avoid getting sidetracked here.

in short FWIW I have SEEN right in my face S multipunctatus scattering the eggs, but it's rare I think. about obligate/facultative; in captivity things can change.....even tigers crossbreed with lions. so making conclusions about facultative or obligate parasitism based on the behaviour of captive fish is a tricky thing to do.
AFAIK in the natural range of the Chuckoo Cat there are always hosts; Ctenochromis horei, Simochromis spp etc have a lakewide distribution. but please take the Chuckoo Cat discussion in one of the other topics or start a new one.

back to the granny's: there's a fierce ranking fight running thru the tank now; strangely enough the big female has little to do with it (nobody wins that fight anyway), but male #2 and female #2 are having a free-for-all.
seems it's subsiding; the rubby noseskin was all white and frizzly (being cherwed on) but it's healing fast.

the toughness of this particular species continues to amaze me.
it must be one of the strongest Synodontis-species ever, able to survive a LOT. wich makes sense in a way.

Also, maybe the big female's getting into the spawning again? she seems to have taken to hiding in the left corner wich is also the hidy hole of the alpha male. and there's little agression between them these days, quite different from the time when I had just these 2 granny's.
keep fingers crossed

[Dinyar]

Don't want to hijack Sid's granny thread, but I have to point out that many people -- including me -- have had S multipunctatus spawn WITHOUT cichlid hosts. See, for example, the "Catfish of the Month" article on S multipunctatus on this site.

[sidguppy]

Update:
Today I bought myself a new tank!

or should I say 'indoor pond' since it's very close to 300G (1127 liters to be exact, not counting the 200+ liter biofilter that's gonna be hooked up to it)?

I also drove a 3,5 tons lorry for the first time ever to get this glass giant home. the biggest thing legally drtiveable for me (I haven't got a license for big trucks)
it's stacked at a friends' place for now, until I dismantled the current showtank.
and it's complete! biofilter with a pondpump, loads of fluorescent lights with all the electric stuff needed, a very nice 3 dimensional puzzle wich is the rocky-looking backpanel once built, a stand wich could carry a fully grown Harley Davidson, a big fat heater; you name it.
all for less than 800euro's and about 8 months old (paperwork included!)

I have to dismantle the house (literally! one window, 3 doors, a lot of furniture all will have to move/be removed before it can be placed) to put it where it's supposed to be.

yeah, I'm nuts allright. call the vets.

boy those 5 granny's have room to move in a month or so.....

I have to admit; after carrying this mastodon with 4 friends that
A; it's a good thing I'm a regular gym visitor these days; all the sweating and musclecramps seem to pay off
B; my arms are 10cm/4" longer and my back 5cm/2" shorter I think.

[toddnbecka]

Sounds like a GREAT setup, I'd be green with envy if I had space for one like it. Unfortunately, I need a bigger house for that size tank. Post some pics when it's finished, so I can see what I'm missing.

[sidguppy]

I'll make a topic in speak easy once it's indoors to show the gradual build-up.

and save this topic for my granny's.

[grahams]

Congratulations on your new tank Sid,It sounds like every fishkeepers dream, and a terrific bargain as well.What are the overall dimensions of the tank?it sounds as if it should be at least 8 foot(240cm)long minimum

[Richard B]

I too look forward to seeing some photos. Sid it sounds like your Granny's will be better off than in the wild! (not quite the same volume of water but no predators!)

Hope everything goes smoothly for you.

[sidguppy]

They're spawning again!

this time the males take turns wrapping themselves around the females' head; she hovers over the sand over a flat dugout with her ventrals lowered and her cloaka sticking out......

I'm waiting for an egg explosion; she's really very very gravid.

another good thing: they don't stop when I put my face really close to the window.....I'm going to give it a shot with my cam.

[Richard B]

Any news or update? I'm really hoping you can get 'em to do the business.

Hope everything is going well - Richard b

[jordanroda]

Hope you have babes. I'd like to have two please.

[toddnbecka]

I'd love to have a few young ones too, but local pickup could be difficult.

[grahams]

I know certain members of the forum refused to accept when I posted earlier that "Grannys" had actually been bred in an aquarium,even stating I had been the subject of a hoax.Believe me it was certainly not a hoax, I now have one of the products of that spawn swimming around in one of my aquariums.The adult female that is in the same tank is watching over the little one as if it was her own,chasing away anything that dares to get to close to it.The little cutie is about 3"-3.5" in length and is an exact miniature of its older companion.We had tried desperately to obtain them on our last visit to the breeders,but thankfully on Monday of this week we were able to get 2.One is mine,the second will hopefully be going to his new home this weekend.I am unable to post photographs on the forum,due to the fact that I don`t have a digital camera,or the know how to do it,but I am hopeful that the new owner of the second fish, a forum regular,will be able to do so fairly soon.The people responsible for the spawning will be taking a number of them to a pet traders exhibition in Birmingham in about two weeks time.
I have also been told that someone in the North West of England had an "accidental" spawning some time ago, but hadn`t realised it had taken place.As a consequence only 3 or 4 survived.
I will not give out the full name of the breeder involved as I suspect they are looking to make a feature of them at the exhibition.I do offer my congratulations however to the young man responsible,(Gavin)for his success and hope he will be able to continue with many more spawnings.

[sidguppy]

Sounds very nice all, but I DO know from first hand- I'm in contact with people exporting fish from the lake Tanganyika; both in Nyanza Lac (Burundi) and Zambia (Nkamba Bay) that S granulosus are caught and exported from a size of about 3".
I've seen plenty 3-4" granny's the last few years; before that it always were bigger subadults (5-6") or even fully grown ones (8" and more) that were exported.

show me a pic of a 1-2" juvenile granny and I'm convinced!
I DO understand that people would keep their breeding tricks secret (it's logic if your income depends on it) but I somehow cannot believe anyone with lots and lots of adult wildcaught granny's (needed for the breeding group) and hence loads of juveniles (if it's a success) cannot afford a digicam or making someone visit bringing one.

one of my granny's (my smallest) is also about 3,5" long and is a genuine wildcaught from Burundi.
I've seen 5 juvies of a similar size in Zoo Zajac (Aachen, Germany) wich were caught off the Zambian coast quite recently, and a bunch of similar sized ones from the southern coast of Congo in another LFS.

no pic of any granny that's 3-4" will convince me that it's genuine. too easy!
bring out the juvie or even the tiny ones (<1") out and then we're truly talking success in granulosus breeding here.

There's another very strong argument against Grahams' case: granulosus is a very slow growing fish! for a granny to reach 3" we're talking at least 4-5 years, given the growthrate of larger fish or the growthrate to get from a 3" to a 6" fish.
any granny 8" or more is at least 15 years old; a huge 11+" specimen (measured at 28cm or so as a corpse) at Verduijns' place (recently deceased ) was imported in the early 70's as a 7-8" adult and hence lived more than 30 years (!!) in captivity, already arriving at adult size!

selling or trading a 3-4" granny as F1 would state the success in breeding was at least 4 years ago, perhaps more. weird, but I cannot find anything mentioning that in the stories told so far.......

back on my own topic:
mine made a snack off the eggs obviously; the big female lost her fat belly overnight and the second largest suddenly got a big fat un; so one laid another one snacked I guess. (I'm not missing any of the other fish).

believe me; I WILL post pics if I stumble across eggs, fishlarvae or juvies in my tank.

[grahams]

Oh dear, if it means so much to you to claim your the first to spawn Granulosus then so be it.I know the truth which I gave some time ago,and it would appear you are now effectively calling me a liar.The truth is how I have given it and I couldn`t care less if you believe it or not.I saw the young fry in the tank soon after they were spawned, and I own one of the juveniles now,thats the truth which if you cannot handle it, tough.Can you really be serious saying it takes that long to grow to the size of 3".I am not a liar, and am too long in the tooth to be hoaxed in such a way as you suggest.I have been fishkeeping in excess of 30 years and really don`t need this offensive attitude.All I will say now is that Synodontis Granulosus has been spawned in captivity,just get over it.How sad it is that you need to resort to such bad manners, rather than offer your congratulations to the young man involved in the spawning.
No doubt more information will come out after the exhibition,but for me the matter is closed.Do I have anything to gain by putting false information on the forum,of course not,and I resent the idea that you might think I do.If I or anyone were running a commercial concern none of us would give out the secrets of their operations until such times as they were ready.The time chosen by them was the Traders Fair which takes place in just over a weeks time.
I consider myself fortunate to have been able to see the babies when I did,but I didn`t go with the expectation of seeing them,but it was a wonderful surprise when I did.