Need a good algae eater

nadajdui · Post by **nadajdui** » 03 Jun 2006, 06:15

I don't want snails, and I don't want otos. Had bad experiences with both. The snails were eating and damaging my plants, and the otos didn't last for more than 3 months, mostly a week. So, if possible, I want to stay away from those, though I will take one or the other if it's a must. BN Plecos are VERY hard to find around where I am, and when they are found they're expensive. I will get one if I have to, though I wanted some other ideas. Is the True SAE a good fish? I've heard a lot of good things about them. Do they eat algae even when they're mature? Other fish that eat algae are welcomed as suggestions as well. Thanks!

Tank: 33 Gallons. L: 36" H: 18" W: 12"
Planted tank
Wood
Fish: 5 corydoras catfish, 4 zebra danios, 1 longfin blue danio, soon 7 glowlight tetras.
Nitrites: 0
Ammonia: 0
gh:0
kh:0
Nitrates: quite low, thinking about 3
Problem: Spot and beard algae on glass and plants. Spot algae is easy to remove, though the plants are a different matter.

arc200uk · Post by **arc200uk** » 03 Jun 2006, 11:33

edit: nevermind.

Post by **Shane** » 03 Jun 2006, 14:48

nadajdui,
The truth is that an algae eating fish is never the answer to algae control problems. You will be far happier controlling the algae by changing the length of time your lights are on, the lighting intensity, and the tank's chemistry (esp. phosphates and nitrates).
An algae eating fish clears up many kinds of algae then they often starve to death because they are not specifically cared for (I suspect this is the root of your Oto problems).
-Shane

nadajdui · Post by **nadajdui** » 03 Jun 2006, 15:05

Algae eating dish are not just for eating algae -shrugs- some people like them because they are what they are. I always made sure my otos had food when there was no algae, such as algae wafers. They often ate flake food along with my corydoras, and they were all nice and fat and healthy fish. I have never allowed a fish to starve to death unless it simply refused to eat anything. I am well aware that you can't just buy an algae eating fish or a scavanger, then just not feed it at all, thinking it will do fine on it's own with what it has. It won't. All I want is a fish that can assist me in this algae problem, I am not looking for a quick fix.

Wet Coaster · Post by **Wet Coaster** » 03 Jun 2006, 17:56

Shane wrote:......An algae eating fish clears up many kinds of algae then they often starve to death because they are not specifically cared for (I suspect this is the root of your Oto problems).
-Shane

Shane:
Guilty until proven innocent? I've never liked that tack. "Suspecting", without knowing the details, should best be kept to yourself, quite frankly. Besides, this is just a poll, not a courtroom.

Shane, nadajdui has not detailed her experiences with Ottos here, so I find it disturbing that you make the accusation that she may have been responsible for their deaths. I know nadajdui, and I know that she is puts an immense amount of time and energy into the care of her fishes. Also, it is common knowledge that Ottos are notorious for dying, apparently due to bad collection and shipping practices of wild specimens.

I realize that you are an expert aquarist, Shane, but most of us are still learning. As an expert, no doubt you lose far less fish than the rest of us do, so you may have forgotten how it feels to have a higher rate of fish mortality. So please use this note as a reminder to be a little less harsh in your assessments.

Thank you,
John

Wet Coaster · Post by **Wet Coaster** » 03 Jun 2006, 18:48

BTW, I voted for Ottos. I suggest 1 or 2 should live in your 33 gallon tank. We can expect most to die, so buy 3 to 5, ASAP. Your plants are choking right now, under that algae mess, so a big crew like that would be good for now. Then, once the algae is under control, by the ottos and by tweaking your lighting, you will need less algae-eaters. But, as we know, most of the ottos will die, so you'll then end up with a good balance.

I don't suggest those big, heavy snails. They are too big to deal with the algae that's coating the fine leaves of your Wisteria, Ludwigia, and Rotala. You need critters with more finesse, and less bulk, to get into all those nooks and crannies!

GO OTTO!

Post by **Shane** » 04 Jun 2006, 02:52

Perhaps I was not clear in my earlier explaination. My interpretation of your question, based on the poll title "Which algae eater is best" with a choice of snails, loricariid spp and cyprinid spp, led me to believe that you were hoping to solve an existing algae problem by buying the "best" algae eater. The questions was not "How do I care for Ancistrus" or "What should I feed my otos"?
My point was simply that, when one has an algae problem, it is better to solve the root cause of the algae problem itself. John's postings (it sounds like he has seen your tank) would seem to verify my initial belief.

BTW, I voted for Ottos. I suggest 1 or 2 should live in your 33 gallon tank. We can expect most to die, so buy 3 to 5, ASAP. Your plants are choking right now, under that algae mess, so a big crew like that would be good for now. Then, once the algae is under control, by the ottos and by tweaking your lighting, you will need less algae-eaters.

This is very bad advice. Algae are able to thrive when they have the two elements they need: light and nutrients. Adding a "big crew" will only compound the problem by adding additional biological impact on an aquarium that needs less not more.
Luckily, unwanted algae are easy to get under control. First, review the lighting. How many hours a day is it on, when was the last time the bulbs were changed (old bulbs contribute to algae as they become heavy on the lower spectrums), how many total watts are on the tank, is the algae the result of increasing sunlight hitting the tank now that summer is on us? I know that BC is not the sunniest place (I did my undergrad in Bellingham, WA just south of you), but summer sun is a problem for many aquarists.
Once you have reviewed the lighting situation look at nutrient levels. Have you recently added more bio load, have you used medications that could have crashed the biological filtration, falling behind on water changes lately due to a busy schedule, recently changed the filter's media? All of these can cause a nutrient spike that leads to an algae bloom.

But, as we know, most of the ottos will die, so you'll then end up with a good balance.

Otos do not die any easier than any other loricariid. They just need the proper care. Get the tank healthy and then add the fishes you want. Doing it the opposite way, as John recommends, is a recipe for disaster.
-Shane

nadajdui · Post by **nadajdui** » 04 Jun 2006, 06:12

Ugh, okay, no more arguing, all I want are some opinions on what algae eater is best, that's all. Shane, I believe the algae was the result of removing the filter for meducations, which wasn't a good idea, but I have learned my lesson. That's been dealt with, filter is now back on. Lighting was on for 12 hours, I tuned it down to 8 hours. There are 48 watts on now, and I have T5 bulbs (can't for the life of me remember what kind/brand). I am, as I stated, by NO MEANS looking for a quick fix. Just some fish to help me out. Tonight is the last night for medicating the tank due to a septecemia(sp?) problem, but I think that has been fixed now. I have only been in this fish business for 4 months, so go easy on me, rofl.

Post by **Shane** » 04 Jun 2006, 06:53

I have only been in this fish business for 4 months, so go easy on me, rofl.

nadajdui,
I was never trying to be hard on you, but rather just trying to help you solve the problem. Amazing that I hit on the nutrients (filter removed due to medications) and the photoperiod? We don't make this stuff up

.
-Shane

nadajdui · Post by **nadajdui** » 04 Jun 2006, 07:29

Yes, that was a good call.

Tomorrow I will start to try and fix things, like trimming away unsavable leaves, regular weekly 25% water change, maybe give the glass another scrub if I need to. One thing at a time, hehe.

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 04 Jun 2006, 17:04

There are very few fish able to effectively deal with spot and beard algae.

I totally agree with Shane in his advice. Adding more fish, whether they eat algae or not, will make the problem worse.

Buy these "algae eating" fish because you like them, not because they will eat all your problem algae. They won't.

My planted tank failed due to algae problems. I had Ancistrus and Otocinclus. Neither could eat the black and hair algae that grew. This problem was due to the tank being overstocked with fish (I couldn't help myself).

It's now a Hypancistrus breeding set-up though

For a planted tank to work, you need a very, very light fish stock. I would not add any more fish than you presently have.

Also, why not add some more bogwood. The stain it releases into the water will curb the algae. As you change the water the stain will reduce, and the plants will take over.

Wet Coaster · Post by **Wet Coaster** » 04 Jun 2006, 18:58

Shane:
While you didnâ??t apologize for your harsh assumption that natajdui was to blame for the death of her otos, I appreciate the time you took to make that very good checklist. It is good to have the various ecosystem factors organized like that.

In this case, because I see nadajduiâ??s tank regularly, I stand by my recommendation to add several otos. As you said, that is adding bioload, but I wouldnâ??t worry about that. This is a VERY lightly loaded tank. Its presently high bioload is only temporary, due to a few daysâ?? unfortunate lack of filtration. There are only 5 Zebra Danios and 5 juvenile Corydoras in 33 US gallons, which gives the tank about half of the conservative rule of thumb of one inch of fish per gallon. The stocking level will still be low with the addition of just a few small fish like otos. In addition, the filter is oversized for the tank (Aquaclear 70), so that, combined with the low fish stocking, has meant this tankâ??s water quality has always been consistently excellent.

As for oto survival in Canadian aquariums, the record is indeed dismal. Some aquarists suggest buying 10 if you want 2! Your profile says you are in Mexico, so the ones arriving at your fish stores would likely be less starved, due to a much shorter journey from their South American collection site. But, it is my understanding that by the time they reach Canada, they have been suffering from lack of food for some time, weakening them. Then once they are in fish stores, they find little or no algae to feed on, and continue to weaken. In addition, I understand that some of them may be suffering serious damage from the use of poisons to capture them in the wild, which causes their eventual death. Whatever the reasons, many die within a few weeks of introduction into an aquarium, in this country. Those that survive this initial period seem to be fine into the future.

In nadajduiâ??s tank, the massive amounts of algae will give the otos PLENTY of food! That algae MUST be consumed as soon as possible, because it is choking the plants and everything else. I believe that the bioload from the excrement of a few little otos will be less damaging to this tankâ??s ecosystem than will be the bioload from rotting algae or dying plants.

We know that one major factor in controlling algae is for plants to out-compete algae for the nutrients that are in the system. Since algae get their nourishment from nutrients suspended in the water, and rooted plants get most of their nourishment from the gravel, wouldnâ??t adding nutrients from fish excrement to the gravel help out the plants in their competition against the algae?

(BTW, I just read that Shaneâ??s World article on acclimating otos, titled â??Otocinclus - ''Little Monkeys'' in the planted aquariumâ?

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 04 Jun 2006, 19:43

I believe that the bioload from the excrement of a few little otos will be less damaging to this tankâ??s ecosystem than will be the bioload from rotting algae or dying plants.

This is probably true, but it does not address the fact that the otos will NOT eat the types of algae that nadajdui's tank is suffering from....

Spot and beard algae on glass and plants

They are very picky when it come to the type of algae they consume. They only seem to eat the soft green and the brown diatom algae.

This is why they will not fix an algae problem. All that will happen is that they will eat their prefered algae, which will cause a shift in algal species to the black, spot and beard types which they will not consume.

After about a week in the tank they perish, leaving the few that can get just enough food.

The main reason for their poor success rate, is the fact that they are not fed properly at the LFS, or quite often in the home aquarium. Most people don't feed them specifically, as they can still see algae in the tank, and assume they have enough food. They don't.

These fish need greens in the tank 24/7 to stay healthy.

Post by **Shane** » 04 Jun 2006, 20:37

While you didnâ??t apologize for your harsh assumption that natajdui was to blame for the death of her otos

You need to go back and read my original post again.

An algae eating fish clears up many kinds of algae then they often starve to death because they are not specifically cared for (I suspect this is the root of your Oto problems).

I realize that tone does not translate well over the net, but to call my above statement "harsh" or demanding of an apology is just silly. I suspect, since that word seems to be so loaded to you, that you are just a troll looking to cause strife. I am just trying to help nadajdui solve her algae problem. She will have to weigh the advice she has been given and decide which course of action she believes is best.

But, it is my understanding that by the time they reach Canada, they have been suffering from lack of food for some time, weakening them. Then once they are in fish stores, they find little or no algae to feed on, and continue to weaken.

Shipping is hard on all fishes. Any good fish store though should have already quarantined them and fattened them back up before offering them for sale.

In addition, I understand that some of them may be suffering serious damage from the use of poisons to capture them in the wild, which causes their eventual death.

I have worked side by side with collectors in the field for years (I lived in Venezuela 2000-2002 and Colombia 2002-2004 plus have collected several times in Brazil, Ecuador, and Peru with local collectors) and have never seen any type of "poisons" used in any of these countries for freshwater tropical fish collection. In fact Otos are one of the easiest fish to capture in large amounts. A typical pull of a 12 foot seine in the dry season can bring up 500 Otos each time. When a collector can catch 2-3,000 in 30 minutes why would they need poisons?
There are a few tribes, like the Yanomami in Venezuela, that use the roots of certain tubers for catching food fishes. The roots hold a compund that binds easily with O2. They section off a small area of a creek and pound the tubers on the water. As O2 is taken from the water the fishes come to the surface to try to breath better, partially stunned by the low O2, where they are scooped up by the women and children. I have never seen this method used by tropical fish collectors however. With the increasing availability of fishing tackle (line and hooks), even in the remotest areas, these old methods are rarely utilized any more.
-Shane

Wet Coaster · Post by **Wet Coaster** » 04 Jun 2006, 21:14

Shane wrote:
While you didnâ??t apologize for your harsh assumption that natajdui was to blame for the death of her otos
You need to go back and read my original post again.

An algae eating fish clears up many kinds of algae then they often starve to death because they are not specifically cared for (I suspect this is the root of your Oto problems).
I realize that tone does not translate well over the net, but to call my above statement "harsh" or demanding of an apology is just silly. I suspect, since that word seems to be so loaded to you, that you are just a troll looking to cause strife.....-Shane

No, YOU need to go back and read your original post, and maybe also look up the word "assumption" in the dictionary.

So, now I'm "silly", and a "troll"? How sad and unprofessional, that the moderator resorts to name-calling. Oh well, typical responses from "the boss": can't handle criticism. You may be an academic expert, but your people skills need serious help.

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 04 Jun 2006, 21:46

I don't feel that Shane's comments were harsh at all.

Don't be so paranoid. You're reading between the lines.

Shane did not directly blame nadajdui for her lack of success with otos. He's just offering his opinion on why she has not kept any alive for long.

This is the most common reason why they die in the aquarium. I would have said the same thing, had I not been beaten to it.

Deb · Post by **Deb** » 04 Jun 2006, 22:36

Shane wrote:

An algae eating fish clears up many kinds of algae then they often starve to death because they are not specifically cared for (I suspect this is the root of your Oto problems).

nadajdui, the way I read the above is not as an indictment of your fishkeeping methods in particular, but rather as a general statement of the way otos are starved slowly - from the point of collection to the dealer's tank, unless they are deliberately fed properly. Few people understand the needs of Otocinclus - it isn't just about algae. Their dietary needs can be met by prepared foods as well, and a healthy tank will always have a layer of biofilm combining vegetable and meat components for them to eat.

These are some things to consider for Otocinclus: Do you have an area of swift current in the tank? Do you have a piece of slate or something up against the back wall for them to get behind? Do you have upright posts of wood in the tank for them to gather on? Do you have plants with thick stems or rhizomes for them to get horizontal on all day? This is what they like to do. Sometimes mine cling to the filter intake as if their lives depend on it, as indeed they do, so I think. They love the current, and will deliberately place themselves in places where they can feel its tug. They like fairly clean water with plenty of oxygen, and they don't like boisterous tankmates. This is what I've learned from keeping them in several different tanks over the last few years.

If you decide to try Otocinclus again, nadajdui, please examine the structure of your tank. Maybe you can make a few changes that will say "home" to the otos and help them over the settling in period.

If you want to just deal with your plants, I would ask if you have a regular fertilization regime. Nothing grows algae faster than aquarium plants starving for nutrients. Plants that have have had their growth halted - - for instance, by too much lighting and not enough CO2, or by certain medications used to treat fish - - set the stage for algae to get a foothold. Growing plants need to be fed. You would have to have very amazing tap water indeed to supply fast-growing stem plants with what they require to outgrow algae. Judicious use of plant fertilizers will not lead to an algae bloom, as is commonly supposed, but flooding your plants with artificial light, not supplying CO2, and not feeding regularly will. Algae needs so little to grow well.

I suggest you take a look around on the planted tank websites. Someone else out there has your size tank, similar plants, and similar water parameters. Get an idea of what you need by reading posts and doing comparisons. Crown plants must have substrate fertilization. Stem plants may benefit from substrate ferts, but nutrients are taken up through the leaves, too. Non-rooted plants need water column ferts, but lightly dosed. All plants will benefit from a dose of Seachem's excellent product, EXCEL, a liquid carbon supplement, which does not need high lighting to work.

Please look into this, as you adjust your lighting, strip off decaying plant matter, hand strip any loose algae, and slowly waterchange out the meds from the septicemia attack. That was bad luck, but your tank can recover. You are not overstocked, and you have had some great advice from Shane and the others.

Happy fish and plant keeping to you.

Deborah

nadajdui · Post by **nadajdui** » 05 Jun 2006, 01:22

Yes, I understand the needs of the otos, and I did before as well. I don't completely blame my fish keeping skills for them dying. If people want to state their opinions that my otos starved, then they can do so. I watched them eat every day and every night, just the way I do with all of my fish.
This topic is just about what algae eater is best for the planted aquarium. Why it turned into this I have no idea. I am NOT disappointed in the advice I am getting about keeping plants, it is very good, and much appreciated. I AM disappointed in the name calling and such, but that isn't my call, so, bleh. What do I know, right? Anyway, I think I have everything I need now, and a lot of good information. Thanks everyone for the good info.

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 05 Jun 2006, 01:37

I always made sure my otos had food when there was no algae, such as algae wafers. They often ate flake food along with my corydoras

Unfortunately neither of these foods are a suitable diet for Otocinclus. This I think is part of the reason why they do badly at the LFS.

Algae wafer and flake are both made of mainly fishmeal, and as a result are often over 40% protein. Not good for a vegetarian fish. The greens I feed mine are about 1% protein.

A diet that is too rich can cause all sorts of problems with their gut.

They are great little fish though, and I hope you have a bit more luck with them if you try them in the future.

rahendricks · Post by **rahendricks** » 05 Jun 2006, 14:29

I keep SAE, Otos, Chaetostoma, Farlowella, Platies, and Mollies. They all eat algae, but the SAE probably eats the most and the most different types. I have to say that the Farlowella are probably my favorites. I use a product from Seachem called Neutral Regulator which contains a phosphate buffer. It tends to promote algae growth. If you enjoy keeping algae eaters a tank full of algae is a good thing.

Mike_Noren · Post by **Mike_Noren** » 05 Jun 2006, 17:31

Wet Coaster wrote:"Suspecting", without knowing the details, should best be kept to yourself, quite frankly.

Rubbish. Suspecting that someone who's got bad luck with otos had them starve is simply playing the odds: otos do not eat all types of algae, are difficult to feed supplementary food (because they're not aggressive feeders like Ancistrus or SAE's and will absolutely not compete with other fish for food), and many/most of them end up dead due to starvation.

Otos are difficult, and they're difficult because they're finicky about food. They're not at all bullet-proof suitable-for-beginners fish like common ancistrus or SAE's.

Also, it is common knowledge that Ottos are notorious for dying, apparently due to bad collection and shipping practices of wild specimens.

Yeah, it's common knowledge, but the cause is starvation. First they've been kept for days or even weeks totally without suitable food, which is Very Bad for plant-eating fish, and should they survive acclimatization most of them find themselves in aquaria with inadequate amounts of palatable algae - ie they eat what they can, then they die. Or, occasionally, they start attacking other fish, eating their slime-coats.

And the other fish typically eat the supplementary food meant for the otos.

As for the actual question in this thread... IMO the best algae eating aquarium fish are SAE's, then, quite a bit less effective, common ancistrus, and otos a distant third. There's some algae eating tetras (Pareiodon affinis etc) and some other algae-eating cyprinids (notably Crossocheilus langi) said to be as good or better than SAE's, but they're rare and I've no personal experience with either.

Wet Coaster · Post by **Wet Coaster** » 06 Jun 2006, 19:55

And â??Shaneâ??s Soldiersâ?

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 06 Jun 2006, 20:42

Wet Coaster. Whilst I appreaciate that you're trying to be witty, I feel that you're just trying to actually start a "war" - perhaps it's your reference to being a Knight in shining armour that gives me that impression. Be that as it may, I think I would like to explain how I see this case...

I'm not one of Shane's buddies (or "soldiers" as you call it). I, do however, respect Shane for his knowledge.

It is sometimes hard to strike the right balance between second-guessing the actual problem behind what is often cryptic or incomplete posts, and on the other hand "jumping to conclusions". I think I speak for a majority of posters and readers here when I say that stringing out the process by asking for the exact details, when there is a 90%/10% (or 80/20) chance of being right with the first guess, then I prefer to try to guess the circumstances and give some advice based on that. Sometimes this doesn't work out right - we live and learn.

Shane took a gamble and said that it's common that Oto's die from starvation in captivity. This MAY or MAY not be what happened with the original posters fish - I don't know, I haven't seen the original posters tank, nor any evidence AGAINST this theory. You mention poision used to capture this fish. Do you have ANY evidence for this theory? As far as I'm aware, these fish are caught by hand-netting by local fishermen...

I do agree, that Oto's are not easy to keep, and they need correct feeding with a low-protein, high fibre, vegetable based food, such as courgette(zucchini) - blanched and to be left in the tank until the fish eat it (tho' no more than about 48 hours).

One thing that I haven't seen any evidence of is the water chemistry of the nadajdui's tank. Nitrate, nitrite and ammonia levels?

--
Mats

Post by **Shane** » 07 Jun 2006, 01:57

the gallant Sir Coaster

John,
How could I have so misjudged you? You are a gallant knight! nadajdui's honor is safe and I will never do her wrong again. Now, ride on brave Sir Quixote! Other windmills await your attentions. I wish you the best of luck in your travels to other lands.
-Shane

Need a good algae eater

Which algae eater is best?

Need a good algae eater