Zebra export discussion from the for sale thread

Raul-7 · Post by **Raul-7** » 14 May 2006, 08:10

Waldo wrote:
Q) Can you get zebra pl*co's?

No, They aren't ok to export anymore. Whats on the list is generally a good idea of what I can get.

Then how does Blue from Exoticfinds.net get them? He told me he gets them from Peru - hard to believe.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 15 May 2006, 13:16

There are people importing L46 (or so I've read) under a "scientific use" license. This is allowed, but it's definitely breaking the rules to then go sell them commercially. If someone is getting them from Peru, I suspect they are either not actually from Peru, or they are smuggled across the border illegaly.

I personally don't think it's right to break the law (or circumventing it by claiming a different purpose) to get the fish someone wants. But that's just me...

Of course, the importer or wholesaler isn't necessarily the one breaking the law as such - if I were to buy some Peruvian-sourced L46, I'm not, technically, breaking the law - it's technically illegal to take them out of Brazil, but once they are out, they are on the market. However, they are protected in Brazil - for good or bad reasons, and selling them out of Brazil is still illegal, wherever they are then exported from... And by buying those fish, you are helping this illegal export to make money - which isn't exactly what I'd call ethical.

--
Mats

Post by **Barbie** » 15 May 2006, 17:01

That's not exactly true though. Exporting them from Brazil for research purposes is definitely how they're circumventing the ban on exporting, but once they leave the country they aren't putting any burden on the wholesaler that receives them to be sure they are only going to research facilities or anything. They're just sold to the resellers, albeit at an ungodly high price. It's not unethical to sell these fish, as they were exported with Brazil's permission and there honestly hasn't even been an impact study done to know if the fish need protected or not! I'm sure it can't hurt anything and I'm all for conservation, but a decision like this really should be based on some hard facts, IMO.

Also a discussion that should be had in the forum for it, not Waldo's thread ;).

Barbie

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 16 May 2006, 10:46

Thanks to Barbie for moving this.

I guess me and Barbie have differing opinions on the ethics of fish import/resale... [But I do agree that the Brazilian government may not exactly be operating with a basis of "What's best for the fish" policy - I think that's another issue that we'd have to sort out separately].

I do see your point about the resaler being unable to enforce the conditions of sale that the original seller stated (in this case, the fact that they are supposed to be for research purposes only). My concern is more the fact that someone is making (big) bucks from cheating the system. The guys catching the fish are probably not getting much more money (if they are doing the capture legally - which I presume they do), but the middle-man that signs the sheet saying that they are for research is probably adding a "lying-bonus"... And everyone else has to pay extra.

--
Mats

Post by **Shane** » 16 May 2006, 16:58

There is some smuggling via Colombia and Peru. I know one Bogota exporter that we talked to in Leticia, Colombia said that a fellow exporter had travelled to the Xingu, bought zebras, brought them all the way back to Bogota (via Leticia) and sold them. The point being that you may see actual H. zebra on lists from Colombia and Peru.
-Shane

Waldo · Post by **Waldo** » 16 May 2006, 17:33

I was under the impression that L46 would be perminatly outlawed from exportation however when I talked with my freind at Interzoo he said that with the seperate estuaries they are collecting from that exportation would be outlawed only for 2-4 years until the sp recooperates from the over farmed region.

Waldo · Post by **Waldo** » 16 May 2006, 18:34

I just got back from Germany (interzoo) I have talked with OFI and my partner in Brazil who both state that it is illegal withougt documents for scientific study. The point being is to have a 2-3 year period where there is no farming. The fish are there, the farmers are there and while there are potential buyers there are potential sellers. Could I... Yes... will I NO. I would rather see the domestic farmed fish be bred over a sp that is in danger of extinction. If you want it so bad buy them from a seller who has bred them in the US rather then ones that have been smuggled over the border. That or Wait. obviously the fish you saw were illegal and even with the documentation are for comercial use.

Waldo · Post by **Waldo** » 16 May 2006, 18:43

Barbie wrote:That's not exactly true though. Exporting them from Brazil for research purposes is definitely how they're circumventing the ban on exporting, but once they leave the country they aren't putting any burden on the wholesaler that receives them to be sure they are only going to research facilities or anything. They're just sold to the resellers, albeit at an ungodly high price. It's not unethical to sell these fish, as they were exported with Brazil's permission and there honestly hasn't even been an impact study done to know if the fish need protected or not! I'm sure it can't hurt anything and I'm all for conservation, but a decision like this really should be based on some hard facts, IMO.

Also a discussion that should be had in the forum for it, not Waldo's thread ;).

Barbie

With the deduction of what my partner said about Zebras being available reduction of the sp has been so great that even my partner said it's best to keep the sp alive then take a chance. Same thing with the black ray's however with them we will see more pond bred (wild) in the future. For us exporters we see potential with the ban. Higher prices for a fish that is stocked in higher quantity is going to mean more investing in healthier installations and better farming techniques.

YouTube · Post by **Jools** » 16 May 2006, 21:57

Waldo wrote:I was under the impression that L46 would be perminatly outlawed from exportation however when I talked with my freind at Interzoo he said that with the seperate estuaries they are collecting from that exportation would be outlawed only for 2-4 years until the sp recooperates from the over farmed region.

I just merged this in here as it's all talking about the same thing.

Jools

Waldo · Post by **Waldo** » 16 May 2006, 22:00

Yeah sorry I posted that before I read this topic. Sorry.

YouTube · Post by **Jools** » 16 May 2006, 22:26

Waldo wrote:Yeah sorry I posted that before I read this topic. Sorry.

No worries, just tidying up. While I'm on, I think you should be applauded for your stance on this issue. Very few folks actually believe they are in trouble in the wild even though real evidence is there.

Jools

Boots n all · Post by **Boots n all** » 16 May 2006, 22:46

Barbie said " Exporting them from Brazil for research purposes"...."It's not unethical to sell these fish"
Does that mean you would buy Whale meat? they where killed for reaserch also

.
l dont have a problem buying them, but l would not make that statement is all l am saying, of course it is unethical to sell a protected and possibly endangered species.

kev · Post by **kev** » 16 May 2006, 22:54

as some of you know i was in the Xingu about 3 week's before they banned these fish, we spent a week in the river and i dont mean up and down it on a boat, i mean in the river with a compressor and while my friend only seen one zebra in the water i did'nt see any, now some of you are going to think oh yes but you are just an amature, but the fisherman where finding it really hard to find these fish also. Every boat that went passed never had more than 2-3 zeb's on it

, and for a river that there is pretty much a pleco under every rock that is not good. I also think Waldo should be applauded for your stance

. Time is all they need.

Kev.

Post by **Barbie** » 17 May 2006, 05:03

I guess what I should have said was "illegal". Noone is breaking any laws. Brazil is allowing the fish to be exported. Zebras are obviously not going to be hurt by a ban on exporting them. I didn't say I approve of them being fished to extinction but I do think comparing it to slaughtering whales while I'm personally doing all I can to continue the existence of the species is more than a little above and beyond the topic at hand. Let's make this clear yet again. Zebras are NOT protected or listed as possibly endangered species. They are simply banned from export by Brazil. Period. That doesn't mean this isn't a good thing, it just means that the information that people keep insisting on repeating is sometimes a far cry from the truth.

I'm all for allowing the recovery of the species. I'm just also tired of the rumors and assumptions that seem to run rampant every time a discussion of H. zebra is started. As someone that's worked for an Environmental Consulting agency, the lack of studies or accurate information on the subject make the entire ban seem more suspect, IMO.

I do think that the people that are buying the really expensive wild zebras that are available to be purchased right now are almost surely going to be potential breeders. The thought of someone outlaying that sort of cash for a pet to look at seems less likely. This should mean that by increasing the cost of the fish they are ensuring more of an effort is made to captively raise them on a larger scale, wouldn't it?

Barbie

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 17 May 2006, 13:24

Very few folks actually believe they are in trouble in the wild even though real evidence is there

Very interesting Jools.

I was under the impression (from Barbie and Shane) that the the general consensus was; there's no hard evidence whatsoever, and that they should continue to be caught regardless of anecdotes like Kevs.

For the record, I agree with Mats in that, although no study has been done, a precautionary approach is best. There's no harm in letting them recover in number.

This may well work in benefit for the aquarist, as given the large sums of money involved, people will invest more time, money and fish in captive breeding projects.

Waldo · Post by **Waldo** » 17 May 2006, 14:14

God save us if we see painted, or geneticly mutated L46 from asia though in the near future though.

Dukerider · Post by **Dukerider** » 17 May 2006, 14:29

Waldo wrote:God save us if we see painted, or geneticly mutated L46 from asia though in the near future though.

If that is turns out to be the case, then as usual I'll be boycotting any shop which stocks them...and letting them know why.

YouTube · Post by **Jools** » 17 May 2006, 16:40

racoll wrote:I was under the impression (from Barbie and Shane) that the the general consensus was; there's no hard evidence whatsoever, and that they should continue to be caught regardless of anecdotes like Kevs.

I'm going to have to stick my neck out here and disagree entirely with the statement above, sorry!

I was in the room with Shane when we talked to the exporter in Leticia who was shipping zebras upriver to get them out of the country by boat, he did say they were very hard to find now and were also much more expensive even at their stage.

Some of the information I have I can't share here I'm afraid, but even if I didn't have that I have spoken with several exporters and with several collectors who have made more than one visit to the river and they all say the fishes are very hard to find now. That's real hard evidence in my book.

Bear in mind ten years ago this fish wasn't even known to science and the fact that the Brazilian government has now banned their export should also tell you something...

For my mind in comes down to personal accountability; if I was going to spend Â£100 on a zebra pleco, I would like to buy tank raised fish and know I wasn't having a part in overfishing. Support the breeders and, in this case, leave the wild fish alone. What's wrong with that?

Jools

PS I don't think these species are prolific enough to worry about mutations beyond colour sports and they are too expensive to appeal to most uninformed people that buy painted fish.

YouTube · Post by **Jools** » 17 May 2006, 16:50

Dukerider wrote:
Waldo wrote:God save us if we see painted, or genetically mutated L46 from Asia though in the near future though.
If that is turns out to be the case, then as usual I'll be boycotting any shop which stocks them...and letting them know why.

Dukerider,

Just a passing thought, what's the difference between a dye injected cory and a dye injected zebra pleco? Or a disco glass fish or red parrot cichlid? Would you complain about the former as energetically? Of course you would, I think?

This is now getting a bit far fetched, but say, for arguments sake, some one "crossed" a zebra pleco with a common and you got a colourful fish that was really hardy and laid 10,000 eggs at a time. Zebra pleco market crashes, pressure on wild populations is eased?

Which is the greater good or evil?

Jools

PS I'm being deliberately annoying so as to generate debate, sorry, but I often think over this argument in my own mind, just thought I would share!

Waldo · Post by **Waldo** » 17 May 2006, 16:57

Thats what I thought about discus

The people that are exporting like that now are doing it legally but not morally I guess you could say. I was under the influence that the fish was very numerous and the government was restricting the fish for other reasons like pims often are from Peru. OFI and Farmers have said this is not the case. They just aren't their because they are being farmed. I'm also curious about the restrictions because I think the ban is not listed as a cities fish that could be imported with such papers. It's not supposed to be touched.

While touching on the Taboo subject of genetic engineered fish I am not entirely against it. Guppies and Bettas are no longer The same fish as they were however those staples in the AFT (Aquarium Fish Trade) are the reasons a 9 year old can stike themselfes into the hobby. I would not take that away for anything. I would much much rather see the "Evil Empire" Petsmart and Petco carry albino long fin bushy nose over commons. For god sakes the labels say Rubber lips are going to get 24" and Pacu's 10".

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 17 May 2006, 18:10

For people just jumping in on this topic, there have been some very informative threads already.....

http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... ng&start=0

http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... hlight=dam

http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... harvesting

bronzefry · Post by **bronzefry** » 17 May 2006, 18:50

On a side note, dyed fish are sold in my area at quite an alarming rate. A new LFS opened up 5 minutes from my house. More dyed fish than ever.

I told a manager he lost out on a $200 sale and I told him why. The only "LFS"in my area without dyed fish is PetSmart. Waldo, are you going to be in Maryland this October? If so, I look forward to meeting you!

Amanda

Yann · Post by **Yann** » 17 May 2006, 19:41

Hi!

The thing is why Hypancitrus zebra is so popular...when it was allowed it was the quite unusual body pattern... but since the ban...it is mainly for a buisness point of view!!

Sure Hypancistrus zebra isn't very productive...10-15 eggs a batch at most...but when you see how much is sold a youngster of 1"...comon...I never seen any reasonable size fish being sold at such small size and for so much...

Most people which are getting interesting into this fish right now are not convice into saving the species...the overfishing but also the construction of the Belo Monte Dam was a reason given (seems they forgot about all the other species present in the Xingu) they are just counting the Â£,$ or â?¬ or whatever money coming into their wallet...
If they were interested into saving the species, they would select the person to which they pass the species.

Regarding the possible genetic modification... sure it won't be for now... but it will...Hypancistrus zebra holder, especially for the one who have tank raised (F1) juvenils should add new blood in their group and find someone around to exchange genes and insure they are not from the same origin... it wasn't possible to do so 2 years ago but I see so many people rasing these now...

I think the worst I have seen so far is a guy already making a waiting list of the people he was going to sell L340 fry... L340 he didn't have at that time (although they were coming his way)

I don't buy either on the reason given for selling these F1 at such astronomic price...unless you are making a living out of your Hobby... it is and must stay a Hobby...I think that money has already corrupt many place, hobby, sports and stuff

I don't mind paying a high price for a fish, but I would prefer to see the money being in the pocket of the fishermen who collected it rather than in any other...
We are seeing Fair Trade everywhere...when will it happen with this Hobby!!

Cheers
Yann

Waldo · Post by **Waldo** » 17 May 2006, 21:19

I think Fair trade is already in the aquarium trade. Anytime you have more then one person that wants your product or service your going to be able to market that item at a reasonably price.

MD? whats going on over there?

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 17 May 2006, 21:30

Waldo, I'm not sure you understood "Fair Trade" correctly. It's a principle used to increase the amount of money given to for example coffee growers, compared to the money made by the big company that imports, roasts and packages the coffee.

In fish-terms, that would be that a fisherman that catches fish would get a decent pay, in proportion to what we pay in the shop.

I certainly wouldn't mind a logo like this:

.
next to the fish in the shop... Sorry about the size of the logo...

--
Mats

Waldo · Post by **Waldo** » 17 May 2006, 21:53

I know of it. Someone did a study on it in our economics class. Most of the farmers that would catch the fish are going to be frelance. A blue eye for example is going to cost whatever they say it will.

Boots n all · Post by **Boots n all** » 17 May 2006, 22:26

l would agree with ralco "There's no harm in letting them recover in number". Lets face it the easier they are to find in a couple of years maybe the lower the price

Lets face it there are a few people who are laying claim to breeding this fish now, if you cruse some of the forums you will see, maybe the "wild caught" are locally bred and sold as "Wild caught" to ensure a good price?.....now there is a question

Who here has lay claim to breeding this fish and why did you stop?

Waldo · Post by **Waldo** » 17 May 2006, 22:43

I don't think a domestic breeder would have any trouble at all selling these fish. They would also be risking their reputation on lying about fish. It's pretty easy to tell if they are wild or domestic if you know what your looking for. Besides lets face it if you bred them you wouldn't feel enclined to brag.

If they say wild they more then likely are and If thats the case a purchase is going to support the people that are doing the wrong things.

Boots n all · Post by **Boots n all** » 18 May 2006, 04:34

maybe your right, l dont see how you could tell the difference between wild caught and not? that is a big statment to make, l would like to know how and please dont use size as the argument.
you cant with any other fish why would catfish be any different?
Why would you brag if it meant the price would go down

, l have seen it here in Australia as l am sure you have seen it in your country with some cichlids.
Imports $500 local bred $100

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 18 May 2006, 10:15

I don't think I could tell the difference between wildcaught and captive bred H. zebra, but I guess if you see them often, it may be possible...

As to bringing the price down, there's a big difference between most cicklids and H. zebra: Many cicklids will spawn with 100-500 fry, and if you look after both the parents properly, they will spawn once a month or so. H. zebra, you'd be lucky to get 15 fry in a spawn, and they may, if you're really good to them, spawn twice in the same year. And then it takes a year to get them to 2.5cm/1" or so where they can start to be sold. So, captive bred cichlids will lower the price compared to imports simply because once they breed, they give off LOTS of babies. You'd need a veritable zebra factory with several dozen tanks to make any sort of dent in the zebra demand vs. supply defecit.

I don't think the people who breed them are stopping - it's just that these fish aren't very prolific - which is also why they are more susceptible to over-fishing than for example cicklids in the wild.

--
Mats

Zebra export discussion from the for sale thread

News about L-46

Re: News about L-46

Hm

hmm

Hmm