Glossary questions and requests

bronzefry · Post by **bronzefry** » 24 Mar 2006, 00:43

Sorry, Silurus! I took out "adipose" as a stand-alone.

Deb, I realized after I posted that the title of the book had something to do with Corydoras. Big duh!

It's been a very long, busy week.

Rugose: I have that one as wrinkled and/or rough. Sounds close. Anybody with something to add?

I'm finding it easier to print out the multiple postings and read them. I'm going over Mats'and Marc's suggestions on "synonym", "junior synonym" and "senior synonym." I'll check back later on Friday to see if there's anymore activity on those words. If not, I'll put them in.
Amanda

Post by **Silurus** » 24 Mar 2006, 01:11

You cannot get more "official" than the definitions as used by the International Code of Zoological Nomenclature:

Synonym - "Each of two or more names of the same rank used to denote the same taxonomic taxon." (one can substitute "entity" in place of "taxon", I suppose). You have to remember that synonyms exist at every taxonomic level (although the ones we are most familar are species).

Junior synonym - "Of two synonyms: the later established..."

Senior synonym - "Of two synonyms: the earlier established..."

Subjective synonym - "Each of two or more names whose synonymy is a matter of individual opinion..."

Objective synonym - "Each of two or more synonyms that denote nominal taxa with the same name-bearing type..."

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 24 Mar 2006, 10:25

Genital papilla:
The external part of the reproductive organ.

--
Mats

Post by **Marc van Arc** » 24 Mar 2006, 14:53

Here are some more:

- postcleithral process
- nape
- fontanel
- depressible (teeth)
- suture line
- symphysis
- vomer
- palatines
- interorbital
- porus pectoralis

Source: just half a page of the redescription of Liosomadoras oncinus (Mees, 1978)

YouTube · Post by **Jools** » 24 Mar 2006, 15:18

Marc van Arc wrote:Here are some more:

- postcleithral process
- nape
- fontanel
- depressible (teeth)
- suture line
- symphysis
- vomer
- palatines
- interorbital
- porus pectoralis

Source: just half a page of the redescription of Liosomadoras oncinus (Mees, 1978)

I've let this slide until now, but I do think we should restrict glossary additions to terms found on the site, otherwise Amanda may not survive the year! Priority should also be given to commonly used terms over less common ones.

This topic should also discuss these merits / priorities but I fail to see the point in having a site glossary filled with words not on the site!

Jools

Post by **Marc van Arc** » 24 Mar 2006, 16:02

Yes, perhaps those were somewhat over the top. I am thinking of doing an article on Liosomadoras and was hoping someone could explain them

There has been no intention at all to annoy Amanda

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 24 Mar 2006, 16:12

Several of those are descrbed in Fishbase.org - go to http://www.fishbase.org and enter the word in the box just under "Gloassary". Some are not, tho'. "nape" is actually described in a post in this thread - not sure if any other of the words are...

--
Mats

Post by **Marc van Arc** » 24 Mar 2006, 16:49

Thanks Mats, I'll give it a try overthere and will search for nape overhere.

Deb · Post by **Deb** » 24 Mar 2006, 19:06

Did you know that a search of the site turns up several of these words in Silurus' posts?

http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... epressible

and here:

http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... ight=vomer

Palatine is in there, too, so, in fact, a number of these unusual words do show up on PC.

If I had read those posts when they first went up, I would have asked for words like "vomer" to be defined.
I'd want more information. I admit the words are uncommon, to say the least!

Deborah

bronzefry · Post by **bronzefry** » 24 Mar 2006, 21:20

It would be good to catch up with the words we have going now. Everybody is extremely helpful and I can't thank you enough.

Marc, you aren't annoying me in the least. My vocabulary has blossomed in the past week. How could I be annoyed about that?

Amanda

Post by **Marc van Arc** » 24 Mar 2006, 22:03

bronzefry wrote:Marc, you aren't annoying me in the least. My vocabulary has blossomed in the past week. How could I be annoyed about that?
Amanda

I know, Amanda, don't worry. I was just referring at Jools' comment "otherwise Amanda may not survive the year!".
I will look them up myself (and gradually bring them in if wanted). Meanwhile you go on with doing a great job.

YouTube · Post by **Jools** » 25 Mar 2006, 11:04

Yeah, but porus pectoralis? I agree with most of the others could / should be added at some point.

Nape : Back of the neck, a human with long hair in a ponytail would have their nape covered by it.

Acutally, looking at it, Marc's list of <em>Liosomadoras</em> words are almost exactly in descending order of usage (he said with wet finger pointedly waving around in the air).

BTW, anyone notice the new "Help!" menu option on the top right...

Jools

Deb · Post by **Deb** » 25 Mar 2006, 13:06

Yes, I did - after searching desperately for the Glossary under "Cool Stuff" (from whence it had mysteriously disappeared) and thinking, "Now where would he put it if he moved it?" it was found under "Help," the only other logical choice.

Whew!

Were you thinking of making a general forum announcement?

Deborah

bronzefry · Post by **bronzefry** » 25 Mar 2006, 15:40

Here's a go at the versions of synonym:
Synonym: A newer scientific name supercedes an older scientific name. Example: When a species moves from one genus to another, it is designated with a synonym.

Junior Synonym: The newer of two synonyms.

Senior Synonym: The older of two synonyms.

Subjective Synonym: Of multiple names, the synonym used is a personal choice.

Objective Synonym: Multiple names with two or more synonyms of the same type.

Have at it!
Amanda

Post by **Silurus** » 25 Mar 2006, 16:28

The definition of synonym is incorrect. Synonyms really just means different names for the same taxon (or taxonomic entity). There is no indication of age (and it should be the older name that has priority over the younger name; note spelling of the word supersede). The example given is not a very good one at illustrating synonymy. I would use an example at the species level, rather than at the genus level.

And I don't think the definitions for subjective and objective synonymy are paraphrased correctly.

Deb · Post by **Deb** » 25 Mar 2006, 17:50

Since I was the one who requested these definitions I will jump in again and ask, can we not just use this earlier post from Silurus:

You cannot get more "official" than the definitions as used by the International Code of Zoological Nomenclature:

Synonym - "Each of two or more names of the same rank used to denote the same taxonomic taxon." (one can substitute "entity" in place of "taxon", I suppose). You have to remember that synonyms exist at every taxonomic level (although the ones we are most familar are species).

Junior synonym - "Of two synonyms: the later established..."

Senior synonym - "Of two synonyms: the earlier established..."

Subjective synonym - "Each of two or more names whose synonymy is a matter of individual opinion..."

Objective synonym - "Each of two or more synonyms that denote nominal taxa with the same name-bearing type..."

and paraphrase the above by stressing this point that he just made:

1.Synonyms really just means different names for the same taxon (or taxonomic entity). A synonym is another name for the same thing (that is, the same taxonomic entity. On Planet Catfish we will usually see synonyms at the species level.) If one name is older (senior synonym) than another, that name has priority over the younger (junior synonym) name.
Example at the species level: "These would be Vandellia cirrhosa. Vandellia plazaii is a junior synonym."

and if Silurus could just expand this sentence with more explanation of terms:

"Each of two or more synonyms that denote nominal taxa with the same name-bearing type..."

I think we'd be able to go from there.

Amanda, I'll be glad to try writing it up. I'll just wait for any comments and final advice from HH.

Deborah

bronzefry · Post by **bronzefry** » 26 Mar 2006, 22:00

Deb, that would be helpful. For some reason, those definitions are confusing to me. Maybe it's more simple than I'm making it.

Detritus and rugose seem to mean what they mean. As do nape and nuchal(they cross-reference one another). I'll put these in today.

We never really cleared up Adipose Fin: "A fin without support rays." However, a Corydora has a spine in its adipose fin. If a spine is a support ray, does that make it something other than an adipose fin?

Oviparous: "A fish which lays eggs that are fertilized, develop and hatch outside of the body."

Is everybody okay with Mats' definitions of inbreeding, linebreeding, outcrossing and crossbreeding?
Amanda

Post by **Silurus** » 26 Mar 2006, 22:20

deb wrote:and if Silurus could just expand this sentence with more explanation of terms:

"Each of two or more synonyms that denote nominal taxa with the same name-bearing type..."

Nominal taxa are named taxonomic entities (species, genera, etc.)

Name-bearing types are just the specimen(s) to which the name is referenced. Holotypes, syntypes and lectotypes are name-bearing types (go back to the definition of these terms and you will see "name-bearing types" in them). The definition of objective synonymy is a little more complicated than as given (notice the ellipsis at the end of the sentence), since genera do not actually have name-bearing types (they have type species). If the type species of two nominal genera are the same (by the same, I mean exactly the same, not subjective synonyms of each other), then the two nominal genera are objective synonyms. This works at succeeding levels up the hierarchy (i.e. type genera for families, and so on).

Confused? It takes a while to sort it out.

bronzefry · Post by **bronzefry** » 26 Mar 2006, 22:35

My mother graduated from Harvard(after raising three children)with distinction and I'm stumping her with many of these words. She put down her Sunday New York Times crossword puzzle and I read her the official definitions for synonym, etc. The look on her face was quite priceless.

I'll put oviparous in....
Amanda

Deb · Post by **Deb** » 26 Mar 2006, 23:52

Thanks to Silurus for his expert help!

Confused? It takes a while to sort it out.

It is a little hard to wrap one's brain around all the logic of synonymy, but I will try.
If I need more help, or a "sense-only" read through, I'll ask, via PM.

Amanda, I'll start working on this right away. Give me a little time - these terms are difficult, and we may not need all of the information presented here in order to get a good definition in the glossary. I'll post here when I'm done.

As far as the "adipose fin" of a Corydoras catfish - these are always called adipose fins, in every book, diagram, and photo that I've ever seen. If they should be called something other than that, now's the time for someone to say so!

In Lambourne's book (mentioned earlier) the detailed drawing has labelled clearly the pre-adipose plates, followed by the adipose or second dorsal spine, leading to the adipose fin itself. This photo, of a "Bandit Cory", in the forum shows the spiny ray distinctly:

http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... hp?t=15209

You can see it clearly through the fin tissue. That's the first time I've noticed this in a cory, and it's all this talk of adipose fins that's made me look twice. I'm glad I did.

I wonder if Corydoras is the only catfish group with the leading spine ... ?

Deborah

Post by **Silurus** » 26 Mar 2006, 23:59

I wonder if Corydoras is the only catfish group with the leading spine ... ?

No, loricariids have it, as does Sisor.

Deb · Post by **Deb** » 27 Mar 2006, 01:07

In that case,

"Adipose fin - a fin on the dorsal surface between the dorsal fin and the caudal fin, composed of fatty tissue, and (rarely) a hard, leading ray or a few soft rays, as seen in some catfishes, such as Corydoras and certain loricariids, for example Sisor."

Does that work? We don't need to say it's small, or anything about characins, and we only mention catfishes as an example because this is a catfish site.

What do you say?

Deborah

Post by **Silurus** » 27 Mar 2006, 01:40

I might point out that Sisor is NOT a loricariid.

Deb · Post by **Deb** » 27 Mar 2006, 02:24

Sorry. I thought you meant "for example, Sisor." I should have checked it, when the name sounded unfamiliar.
Revised:

"Adipose fin - a fin on the dorsal surface located between the dorsal fin and the caudal fin, composed of fatty tissue, and (rarely) a hard, leading ray or a few soft rays, as seen in some catfishes, such as Corydoras, certain loricariids, and Sisor, the Indian whiptail catfish."

Okay to go?

Deborah

Deb · Post by **Deb** » 27 Mar 2006, 19:38

Here's what I have for the topic of synonymy:

" Synonym - each of two (or more) different names for the same taxon, or taxonomic entity; another name for the same thing (that is, the same taxonomic entity, such as that which genus and species denote.) If one name is older (senior synonym) than another, that name has priority over the younger (junior synonym) name.

" Synonyms may exist on every taxonomic level. On Planet Catfish we usually see synonyms at the species level. Example: "These would be Vandellia cirrhosa. Vandellia plazaii is a junior synonym. "

" Junior synonym â?? the younger (later established) name of two synonyms. "

" Senior synonym â?? the older (earlier established) name of two synonyms. "

This next one is hard to paraphrase. I came up with this:

" Subjective synonym - a name whose synonymy with one or more other names is a matter of opinion. "

I checked this next one out with HH first, and he said it was good to go:

" Objective synonym â?? each of two or more synonyms that indicate named taxonomic entities (taxonomic taxa) - that is, species, genera, etc., known as nominal taxa - having the same name-bearing type, that is, the holotype (neotype, if no holotype), lectotype, or a syntype series, and referencing a name-bearing type at the species level, or a type species at the genera level, or a type genera at the family level, and so on up the hierarchy. "

" Want to learn more? More discussion and much cross-referencing can be found in the Glossary of the International Code of Zoological Nomenclature (iczn) here: http://www.iczn.org/iczn/index.jsp "

Amanda, if you want to add the reference to the iczn, it might be a good idea. You may not want to link it, just mention it ... ?
Whatever you think is best.

Deborah

Post by **Marc van Arc** » 27 Mar 2006, 19:38

deb wrote: "Adipose fin - a fin on the dorsal surface located between the dorsal fin and the caudal fin, composed of fatty tissue, and (rarely) a hard, leading ray or a few soft rays, as seen in some catfishes, such as Corydoras, certain loricariids, and Sisor, the Indian whiptail catfish." Deborah

Would you consider this pls?

"Adipose fin - a fin on the dorsal surface located between the dorsal fin and the caudal fin, composed of fatty tissue and (rarely) a hard, leading ray or a few soft rays, as seen in some catfishes, such as most Callichthyidae, Loricariidae and Sisor, the Indian whiptail catfish (Sisoridae)."

Deb · Post by **Deb** » 27 Mar 2006, 20:16

Well, if you're asking me, I think it's excellent!

Do you think you should italicize Sisor?

Post by **Marc van Arc** » 27 Mar 2006, 20:58

deb wrote:Well, if you're asking me, I think it's excellent!

The credits are yours. All I did was delete a comma and change some names.....

deb wrote:Do you think you should italicize Sisor?

Yes, to indicate that it isn't a family name.

bronzefry · Post by **bronzefry** » 27 Mar 2006, 22:35

I love it Marc and Deb! I'll put adipose fin in today.

I was reading Dr. Warren Burgess' A Complete Introduction To Corydoras And Related Catfishes last night(page 14 diagram). He broke this anatomy down in to two parts: the adipose fin and the adipose fin spine. Is there any validity to the term adipose fin spine? I wonder if every author has his or her own way of describing things.

The ICZN is quite a work. I'm just going into the glossary for now. I took taxonomy out because I don't think I was complete in the definition. Here's another go at it:
"The theory and practice of classifying organisms." It's the same in ICZN and Audubon(who probably used ICZN).

What's throwing me with the synonym definitions is that I'm looking up definitions for words in the definition. This ought to help me:

Taxon: "A group or group of populations which are related. A taxon has charactaristics which separates it from other populations."

Nominal Taxa:" A taxon which is denoted by an available name."

Taxonomic Taxon: (Whoever came up with this term??)
Thanks for all the input.

(I'm going to print up what's been posted over the past 24 hours and see if I have a better understanding of synonyms, in the Icthyological sense.)
Amanda

bronzefry · Post by **bronzefry** » 28 Mar 2006, 14:38

If there are no more comments with the synonym bunch, I'll put them in later today. Nicely done, Folks! I want to enter those four terms at once. If someone sees Objective Synonym, but not Synonym, it may cause some confusion.

While I have a moment, I'm going to re-enter Taxonomy.

I also just got a copy of the book The World Of Catfishes by Midori Kobayagawa. What a resource for a novice like me. The chapter near the end on anatomy and physiology labeled "Introduction" is very helpful. The Weberian Apparatus is amazing. The swimbladder awaits me tonight.

Amanda