Please help me verify the identity of this brown plec

Dae · Post by **Dae** » 17 Mar 2006, 13:53

Ok so I know that this particular one has been asked about time and again, and I've compared the photos, I just want to be absolutely sure this is a form of Liposarcus Pardalis - L023.

First, now if this is the case, according to your cat-eLog it says that it'll get to about 25cm. I've seen such a wide range of sizes of this particular one that I don't know what to think! Can anyone verify for me what I can realistically expect?

Secondly, I would like to know what it's ideal tank would be. We're going to be purchasing a 300L/approx. 80US Gallon tank for our other fish that are going to be outgrowing our 65L/14 USGal (re: 2 angelfish and one gold gourami). And my husband does not wish to part with this fish although I believe it won't be ideal to put it with our other tropical fish in a planted tank as it would uproot them by accident. So I'm researching to be absolutely sure of it and if he is unlikely to be happy in our set-up I want to bring him back. (although I worry about this as the LFS may sell it to somebody else who is unlikely to be able to care for him properly, what should I do instead?)

Thirdly, if we indeed decide to put them with the other tropical fish for a time, would they get on? I have read of some of these types of fish actually latching on to flat-bodied fish (is this just to goldfish?). If this is the case then would it be prudent to return/or sell him?

Thank you for my rather obvious and likely repetitive questions, but I've searched high and low over the forum unable to find answers to all my questions

. Your site is the most knowledgeable I've found in ID'ing/taking care of fish of this type, so hopefully I'll find the answers/advice that I need. TIA!

Jen

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 17 Mar 2006, 14:20

Wihtout a photo, it's hard to say what your fish is. But let's assume you're correct in - chances for this are good, as these fish are commonly sold throughout the world, Wales included, I'm sure [I have yet to visit a LFS in Wales, but I'm sure they are just like the ones here in England and Scotland, and in US and Sweden where I HAVE seen them plenty of times...]

They do grow to AT least 25 cm, and most likely more if you look after them well. The reason for the Cat-eLog being a bit "short" is that the Cat-eLog number usually comes from the scientific paper that describes the fish, which in turn is based on stored specimens of the fish. Since storing BIG specimens of fish can be a bit difficult, the collectors don't always store the LARGEST of the fish (nor do they searc the ENTIRE area that the fish lives in for several years to find out what the largest monstrosity can actually grow into). Further, the length given in the Cat-eLog is "Standard length", which doesn't include the caudal (tail) fin of the fish.

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Mats

Dae · Post by **Dae** » 17 Mar 2006, 14:29

d'oh I knew I was missing something, I DO Have photos, here they are.

He was sort of an accident really, we bought him without truly knowing how big he'd get, nor how hard he'd be to take care of. Unfortunately he was an impulse buy (oh I wish I were not guilty of doing this). I feel a strong desire to give him a good home but don't know if I'm able to. My husband does NOT wish to give him up, he's in love

And if I can't, I'm afraid the LFS where I bought him will not give him a "good" home either.

I don't know what to do.

Post by **Silurus** » 17 Mar 2006, 14:51

Yup, that's L. pardalis alright.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 17 Mar 2006, 15:32

I think 90% of all purchases of Liposarcus pardalis are done in ignorance. If people who buy them were to know that theare are other fish that don't require quite so much food, and don't grow quite so big, that are almost as easy to find, and only little bit less tolerant to biochemical mismanagement, then there wouldn't be much of a market for "Common pleco's".

Obviously, some small proportion of people actually know what they are buying and actually want them to grow large (becuase they have large, boisterous fish).

A 300L tank wil be a good start, but ultimately, this fish WILL outgrow a 300L tank. You need something that is at least two and a half foot wide (75 cm) and no less than five foot long (150cm) - and that's not really following my own "best advice" guidelines [which would be about 3 foot wide tank, and 6 foot long], but actually the smallest I'd consider at least bearable to the fish. And unfortunately, these size tanks are hard to find as stock from local fish-shops. They would be achievable from a custom tank builder, and not REALLY expensive, but still not something you just go down to the local shop to get...

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Mats

Dae · Post by **Dae** » 17 Mar 2006, 19:50

So I suppose my real questions are now, where do I go from here? If I return it to where I purchased him, I'm afraid they'll sell him to somebody who's equally ignorant and not be able to take care of him properly. I know of nobody that can really take him on. I really would prefer him to go somewhere sensible who would give him to somebody who would be prepared to give him the aquarium he deserves, is that even possible?

If I were to keep him with my tropicals temporarily, would that be a viable solution in the 300L? Would he leave my tropical fish (ie: 2 angelfish & my gold gourami) alone? Would his tank requirements be significantly different from their requirements? Sorry for all the questions, but I'm concerned for his well-being.

Auto_Girl25 · Post by **Auto_Girl25** » 17 Mar 2006, 23:51

Yeah a Common alright. That's why they call them "Tank-Busters". Is your LFS a pet store? Never trust those people I've gone there and asked questions I've known answers to on purpose, and nearlt every time they screw up.
Take him to a more speciality fish store. Some place that only sells fish and nothing else. They usually have people who know what they are doing a little better.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 20 Mar 2006, 09:26

This is ALWAYS a difficult question: "I've got this fish, that I _NOW_ know will grow too large for my tank(s) - what do I do?", and as you state, the shop will most likely just sell it to the next customer to come in, whether they are capable of caring for the fish or not...

One solution is to actually grow it out, and then take it to a good shop where the staff can find it a good home. There are people about with big tanks, and that NEED a big algae-eating-machine, because the other occupants of the tank are big beasts that will eat small plecos and other such things.

Most good shops will "rescue" your big pleco - you'll probably not get a penny for it, but the shop will do their best to find it a good home - and it being rather big already, at least stops someone with far inadequate space from buying it...

Of course, taking it back to where you got it will have a slight advantage: It shows the shop that they can't ALWAYS get away with selling tank-busters.

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Mats

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 20 Mar 2006, 10:22

If I were to keep him with my tropicals temporarily, would that be a viable solution in the 300L? Would he leave my tropical fish (ie: 2 angelfish & my gold gourami) alone? Would his tank requirements be significantly different from their requirements?

You will be able to keep him in the 300L for many years. He will be absolutely fine with your other fish. Common plecs are very adaptable.

You will need to get rid of him when one of the following occurs.

1). He reaches half of the length of the width of the tank, ie 6" in a 12" wide tank. Any larger, and he will begin to have dificulty in turning round.

2). He eats and cr*ps so much that your water quality suffers. ie you can't keep nitrates below about 40mg/l with your weekly water changes.

Auto_Girl25 · Post by **Auto_Girl25** » 20 Mar 2006, 14:51

Yeah I'd grow him out also.
Dae is absoultely correct. I mayself had my nearly 10 7 years old Common pass away a few months ago. I took me 4 months to find a bigger pleco to replace him. I couldn't put a 2 inch long baby in a 75 gallon tank with 2 7 inch Tin-Foil Barbs, 2 9 inch long Appollo Sharks, 2 5 inch long Red-flash Sharks, a 6 inch long Pit-Bull Pleco, and a 7 inch long Spot Fin Syndontis with an attitude problem. The baby plec would have been killed almost instantly.
Until we finally found a 6 inch juivenille common pleco that someone had turned in because it got too big.

Dae · Post by **Dae** » 20 Mar 2006, 16:43

Thanks for the advice everyone! I feel like such a dope for buying a fish we'd be completely incapable of growing and taking care of for his/her lifespan.

At least there's a lesson learned here, to read up on fish before I buy them, not after.

I think the advice I'm getting is sound, it sounds like a good idea to let him grow bigger and then give him to a reputable fish shop that'll give him to a loving/capable home. Because no doubt about it, he's going to grow into a wonderful animal and it's just a simple shame that we won't be able to care for him

I was thinking of giving him to maidenhead aquatics in Cardiff (wales, UK) which seems to take good care of their fish, ask the buyers if their setup will be suitable for the fish they're intending to buy, they do NOT sell dyed fish, etc. I've seen large plec's here so hopefully they'll have room to give him a loving home later in life.

We've purchased a 300L tank now (aquaone?) which seemed quite nice, accompanied by an external filter, heater, and lights which will do the job until I upgrade to more specialized equipment as I learn and grow in the hobby. It won't arrive for another month so I hope the fish will be OK until then. Hopefully the plec will not destroy my plants I intend to put in

Any more advice would be extremely welcome!

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 20 Mar 2006, 16:51

Generally, Maidenhead Aquatics is one of the "less bad" in the business, and they will most likely be able to take your fish. They aren't perfect, I still haven't found that one

. I still prefer my "local" shop in Farnborough, but that's because I know the staff and they've been selling fish for over 25 years...

Your pleco will probably not eat your plants, but once it gets bigger it MAY want to redecorate your tank to it's preference using the bulldozer method to move plants that it doesn't like the location of. It may also nibble on the plants, but that's usually a sign that it's not getting enough food - easily fixed with more courgette or mango or something.

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Mats

Dae · Post by **Dae** » 20 Mar 2006, 17:40

Thank you MatsP!

I have found the one in cardiff to be extremely helpful, and much better than my LFS's. I found no dead fish, no overpopulation, clean tanks, very healthy looking and vibrantly-coloured fish (not dyed mind you). This is a huge change to what I'd seen when I lived in the US (walmart, petco, etc. for example). Until I find a local setup to my liking, maidenhead will have to do!

I've been warned about them eating plants if they're not fed enough, I try and keep ahead of him but man he's hungry all the time! (typical fish ;) ) But I'm enjoying finding out what he likes and dislikes, such a joy! I don't even know if he IS male, just sorta started calling him male for no particular reason.

kalija · Post by **kalija** » 20 Mar 2006, 18:00

As far as the plants go, I find my common will leave them alone as long as I keep a steady supply of zuchini handy, although it took a few tries for him to learn that it is food.
Don't feel dumb for getting him by mistake, it happens to a lot of people. In fact, I just saw a tank of commons at Petsmart, and the care tag on the tank says "20 gallons and up". I didn't buy anything there because I saw that, but I guess one person won't make any difference to them.

Dae · Post by **Dae** » 21 Mar 2006, 09:01

I'm just so surprised, with all the animal protection movements out there, that fish shops can get away with this blatant neglect and willfull ignorance of the proper care of these animals. How they can give such poor advice and not even care where these animals go or how they're treated is beyond me. I wish there was something I could do, but one person can't fix it I suppose...there just has to be a better way.

Auto_Girl25 · Post by **Auto_Girl25** » 21 Mar 2006, 23:57

Unfortunately we live in a world where the bottom line is most important. I'm not sure how it works where you are but here in Canada most pet stores or fish stores staff get commission. That's why they do what they do. They want to make a buck and don't really care how they do it. It's sad really.

Dae · Post by **Dae** » 22 Mar 2006, 09:40

I'm not sure if they do get commission over here in the UK, I would have to ask someone who's been here a bit longer than me...but I wouldnt be surprised if that were the case. Almost anyone will do anything for a buck.

And these poor animals suffer for it.

Auto_Girl25 · Post by **Auto_Girl25** » 22 Mar 2006, 21:47

Your right
When we bought our first pleco nearly 1 years ago. We asked how big it would get. Of course he was only 2 inches long then. They said "oh probally 3 or 4 inches" well surprise, surprise. 16 inches later.
oh well i loved him.