Hole in the Head

Rocket · Post by **Rocket** » 20 Mar 2006, 20:25

Hello Everyone

I wonder if anyone can help. 3 days ago i noticed that the larger of my 2 oscars had what looked like the start of hole in the head. I moved it immediately to a 40gal hospital tank and started treating it with waterlife sterazin and octazin. I've also moved the smaller oscar into this tank as it also looks to be showing very early signs of the disease. The question i'm wanting to ask is, has anyone else any experiance with this disease? If so what was your treatment and did it work? I really don't want to loose them due to wasting time if this treatment doesn't work. Any help would be much appreciated. Thanks.

Gordon

Post by **corybreed** » 20 Mar 2006, 22:26

The hole in the head disease you are talking about can be prevented with good water quality. Oscars seem very susceptible to the disease. Keep your tank clean and you will avoid the problem in the future.

Mark

Rocket · Post by **Rocket** » 21 Mar 2006, 00:53

Hi Mark

Do you mean by your comment that you expect the treatment to work?

I've been looking up on the disease that it can be due to poor water quality and poor diet both things that i can't see being the case. I know that it can seem a case of denial that my care of the fish isn't perfect but i feed them well and clean the tank out regularly changing 25% of the water. I meant to say it's a 125g tank.

Gordon

Psy · Post by **Psy** » 21 Mar 2006, 06:21

Well, do you have any test numbers? Nitrate in particular is a good indicator of water change needs. Is regular weekly, monthly, or something in between? Anything else in the 125? Its seems like a reasonable stocking, if its just 2 oscars, but you would still likely want to increase the water change (volume or frequency, or both).

There has been some debate as to wether the medications work, but cleaner water will almost always work, so my suggestions start there.

Rocket · Post by **Rocket** » 21 Mar 2006, 12:13

Hi

The tests for the tank are

Ph 6.5
Nitrite <0.3mg/l
Nitrate is between 12.5mg/l and 25mg/l

As to the fish in the tank i have

2 syno Eupterus about 4 inches
3 silver dollars about 4 inches
1 Leiarius longibarbis about 10 inches
2 Oscars, one 11 inches and the second about 9 inces

From what i can see the test show acceptable readings but it looks like i'll be doing even more frequent water changes now just to be on the safe side. Oh and hoping the Oscars get better!

Gordon

kalija · Post by **kalija** » 21 Mar 2006, 16:50

I read a study some time back that suggested Hole-in-head could also be caused by stray electical currents in the tank. Unfortunately I don't remember where I read this, and it was some time ago,(maybe TFH?) but you might want to research it. If so a ground probe in the tank might help.
Good luck!

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 21 Mar 2006, 17:16

If your nitrite result is < 0.3mg/l because 0.3mg/l is the lowest your test goes to, then that's OK. If on the other hand, your nitrite test goes to "zero", then the only realy acceptable value is zero.

Hole in the head is caused by a parasite, but it's indirectly caused by bad water quality.

Is your nitrate test-kit NEW or OLD. Both me and other members of this forum have had problems because the nitrate test has gone old. If you have a test-kit that is old, it may be worth checking it by taking a test-pot to the local shop to verify that your test is not low.

--
Mats

DeepFriedIctalurus · Post by **DeepFriedIctalurus** » 21 Mar 2006, 23:23

I've never read anything totally conclusive about an exact pathenogenic cause of HLLE (Head & Lateral Line Erosion), but one thing I've seen in ALL cases is unsatisfactory water quality. That 25% water change may be keeping nitrate under control, but the 125g is far from lightly stocked.

Now if I can allow myself to gloat a bit, I've always had at least one large overcrowded tank and I've never experienced HITH from my tanks. On the other hand, I have "rescued" a few fish that had pretty severe cases of it (namely 2 different Crenicichla johanna). The pikes were/are kept with all my other fish, and no signs of transmission to the other fish were evident in any way. In my experience with this affliction, simply time and waterchanges have allowed the fish to make full recoveries with only remnant "pockmarks" on their heads.

Are these oscars being fed goldfish? If so, you'd be be doing them a huge favor by stopping this altogether.

Rocket · Post by **Rocket** » 22 Mar 2006, 00:56

Hi

Firstly the Nitrate test is new and the nitrite is just a couple of months old. I went out today and got the new Nitrate test to check that it was the proper reading. Also yes the Nitrite only shows the minimum reading of <0.3mg/l, it's a tetra test.

On the feeding Golfish front it is something i never do or intend to. I feed the tank a mixture of frozen bloodworm, frozen shrimp, fresh prawn, mussels and occasionally squid.

I know the tank isn't exactly lightly stocked but would you call it fully stocked? Not that i'm intending to put any more fish in it just that i am going to let them grow a bit before getting a larger tank. I'm sure it won't take long for the Leiarius longibarbis to require a bigger home!

Thanks everyone for the replies and the suggestions, i'll check out the electric current theory and let you know.

Gordon

DeepFriedIctalurus · Post by **DeepFriedIctalurus** » 22 Mar 2006, 04:17

Rocket wrote:On the feeding Golfish front it is something i never do or intend to. I feed the tank a mixture of frozen bloodworm, frozen shrimp, fresh prawn, mussels and occasionally squid.

That's good to know, and I see you spare no expense on their diet otherwise!

The only thing I'd add to that is good quality pellets, maybe 1 floating & 1 sinking. The fish are obviously getting a wonderful meaty diet, but meat is all they're being fed and it's can't supply them with everything they need. Anecdotal evidence has also linked nutritional deficiencies with HLLE, and that's why I brought up the goldfish thing.

I have all my fish eating at least one type of pellet along with their fresh or frozen food, since it's such an easy way to make sure they're not missing out on any particular nutrient (being fortified with almost everything). Even my tankful of young gold piranha (S.maculatus) were "pellet trained" soon after I brought them home, and other piranha keepers seem to absolutely hate that!

Jackster · Post by **Jackster** » 22 Mar 2006, 04:21

I don't feel your tank is really overstocked but the foods your using may foul the water
if your overfeeding them. Agreed that water changes are the fix so step them up to at
least 30% every 3 days for awhile.

Opinions differ but this disease has been associated with flagellates (parasites).
This may help you.

DeepFriedIctalurus · Post by **DeepFriedIctalurus** » 22 Mar 2006, 05:51

Jackster wrote:Opinions differ but this disease has been associated with flagellates (parasites).
This may help you.

I guess I should've been a little more clear, but I wasn't dismissing the involvement of flagellates. My point was that the initial cause is often environmental or dietary, and the flagellates are merely omnipresent opportunists that will reach infestation levels if conditions suit them.

That truely is a great article that I invite anyone curious about this affliction to read thoroughly, thanks for posting it!

Jackster · Post by **Jackster** » 22 Mar 2006, 07:16

I wasn't disagreeing with you. I was trying to be tactful because I try my best not to
offend anyone (and sometimes I still do).

If you liked that have you read this?

I had a major problem with some type of internal parasite a couple of years ago and it
was a nightmare. I saved most of my fish with Clout as Metro was ineffective.

Rocket · Post by **Rocket** » 22 Mar 2006, 09:46

Hi

Thanks again for the input. I can see where your coming from with regards to feeding pellets. I'll be heading down to the fish shop tomorrow so i'll pick up some stick or pellet food then.

As far as the water changes are concerned it looks like more regular changes will need to be made. I don't want any more problems, especially a recurrance of this if the Oscars recover ok!

Thanks again

Gordon

Rocket · Post by **Rocket** » 22 Mar 2006, 17:49

Ach i lost the big Oscar.

The smaller one is doing fine but i'm finishing the treatment anyway. I suppose underneath I new I was going to loose it but it's still very annoying!

Gordon