L204 getting thin....

3bdesigns · Post by **3bdesigns** » 22 Feb 2006, 19:14

I was inspecting my fishies last night and I noticed my L204 is looking a little thin. Not horrible, but his belly is just not as fat as I'd like to see it (unlike his tank mates).

I feed him algae wafers and veggie wavers - which he loves and eats them up and occasionally the tank gets sinking shrimp pellets and bloodworms (the tetras in the tank love that stuff). I know this is a driftwood type of species, but is he losing ground on me because I don't have wood in my tank?

I do have a stupid question...will adding a piece of driftwood to my tank screw up my pH balances and such that I now have? All the fish in my tank are SO healthy and there has been NO death at all - even among the small fishies - and except for my L204, the tank is just as healthy and perfect as can be.

Any suggestions? Should I move him to a totally different tank with some wood (I have a 10gallon not set up yet).

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 22 Feb 2006, 19:42

I know this is a driftwood type of species, but is he losing ground on me because I don't have wood in my tank?

I would say yes. My L204 rarely bother to feed on any other food I put in the tank for the other plecs. They prefer the wood.

These fish have symbiotic bacteria in their gut that break down wood into digestable components.

will adding a piece of driftwood to my tank screw up my pH balances and such that I now have?

No, unless your water is ultra-soft (ie below 50μS/cm), or you don't change your water.

Any suggestions? Should I move him to a totally different tank with some wood

No, I would get some nice soft wood for him, and leave him in the community tank.

There have been many discussions on the forum about what the best wood to use is, so do a search.

If you're unsure, buy the soft kind from an LFS (not mopani). If you get it from "the wild", remember to soak it for several weeks (not in your tank!), perhaps adding a fungicide.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 22 Feb 2006, 20:50

I wouldn't categorically say that mopani is bad - I've certainly seen mine grow nicely full bellies with just mopani in the tank. However, other woods are easier to chew, which probably makes the fish spend a bit less energy chewing it...

--
Mats

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 22 Feb 2006, 20:56

I wouldn't categorically say that mopani is bad - I've certainly seen mine grow nicely full bellies with just mopani in the tank.

Interesting, mine never touch the stuff. They do get a nice choice though.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 22 Feb 2006, 21:09

Well, I'm not saying that it's ideal - And of course, mine are not , but I don't think it makes much of a difference. It's more a case of "If there's chocolate and bread, I'll take chocolate, but if there's only bread, I'll eat bread".

--
Mats

O_o · Post by **O_o** » 22 Feb 2006, 22:44

My L-204's love zuchinni, and cucumber skin, yesterday he was fighting off a green phantom 3 times bigger then him for cooked whole shrimp. There are plenty of other veggies you can try as well. As far as for wood, just remember to boil it for an hour then soak it over night to release tannins. A nice chunk of drift wood, some freash veggies, and i'd say your flash will be better then ever. Good luck.

Jackster · Post by **Jackster** » 23 Feb 2006, 00:10

Wood is a must for Panaque species.

My Royals (L027 & L190) have always eaten African root (Swahala, Mopani) and seem
to grow well. African root is very dense and the Malaysian driftwood is softer. I prefer
African root as it lasts for many years in the aquarium while others prefer Malaysian
driftwood. Make sure you don't use cedar or pine woods.

I have also found that my fish love sweet potatoes (raw).

3bdesigns · Post by **3bdesigns** » 23 Feb 2006, 13:35

So the driftwood I bought at my fish store I need to boil first?

3bdesigns · Post by **3bdesigns** » 23 Feb 2006, 13:38

MatsP wrote:Well, I'm not saying that it's ideal - And of course, mine are
Panaque maccus
not
Panaque sp(L204)
, but I don't think it makes much of a difference. It's more a case of "If there's chocolate and bread, I'll take chocolate, but if there's only bread, I'll eat bread".

--
Mats

Now that I look at the comparisons of the two types you mentioned Mats - I'm not sure which mine is. I can see photos that look like mine in both descriptions!

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 23 Feb 2006, 13:52

This fish:

is certainly an L204 - they are more contrasty (darker base, lighter lines) than Panaque maccus. Hope you don't mind me using your photo...

Yours looks like a male to me.

Here's a couple of Panaque maccus photos:
Male

Female

--
Mats

pureplecs · Post by **pureplecs** » 23 Feb 2006, 13:59

Nice pics MatP... just curious as to what makes you think that the L204 is a male?

It is hard for me to tell by the pic above.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 23 Feb 2006, 14:10

pureplecs wrote:Nice pics MatP... just curious as to what makes you think that the L204 is a male? It is hard for me to tell by the pic above.

Actually, if you go to the 3bdesign website and look at the closeup of the head, you'll see the cheek-odontodes and the odontodes (hair) on the side of the body on that shot. The picture I put in here is a full-body shot, whcih is not clear enough to make the sexing easy. I'm not 100% sure, but I'd give it a 90% male.

--
Mats

3bdesigns · Post by **3bdesigns** » 23 Feb 2006, 14:11

Mats - don't mind you using my photos at all.

I would love to know the sex of my plecos but I have NO CLUE how to tell. And I can see now that you put mine next to yours - mine is the L204.

You mentioned that some will cross breed - and with the varieties I have in some tanks - that would make for some weirdo looking fry! LOL

On a side note - my Big Spot guy (the one in my avatar) is FAT. His belly (or I guess it could be a her) is really big. I can't remember what his/her L number is - but if it is a female and you think my L204 is a male - could she be filled with eggs?!

pureplecs · Post by **pureplecs** » 23 Feb 2006, 14:33

MatsP wrote:
pureplecs wrote:Nice pics MatP... just curious as to what makes you think that the L204 is a male? It is hard for me to tell by the pic above.
Actually, if you go to the 3bdesign website and look at the closeup of the head, you'll see the cheek-odontodes and the odontodes (hair) on the side of the body on that shot. The picture I put in here is a full-body shot, whcih is not clear enough to make the sexing easy. I'm not 100% sure, but I'd give it a 90% male.

--
Mats

Ah, nice pics on the website. I did see the close up however the only way I could tell my males from female was not by the cheek odontodes (because the females were just as long) but by the odontodes back between the caudal and anal fin area was super thick on the males compared to female (who had them all over the body like the male but not as thick back by the caudal), and also the female was fatter in the betlly region. =) Does that make sense? lol! You take nice pics 3B!

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 23 Feb 2006, 14:39

Your big spot is L75/L124 [Which I read somewhere that Armbuster puts in Hemiancistrus], and that's very unlikely to cross with a Panaque species - but the Peckiltia could well be full of eggs - or just fat... Note how fat my male Panaque maccus is.

Full of eggs doesn't mean anything unless there's a suitable male around anyways...

Sexing signs vary depending on the species, but the L204 and Panaque maccus are pretty easy: males are hairy, females aren't.

As long as the fish aren't the same genus, they should be reasonably OK to keep in the same tank.

--
Mats

3bdesigns · Post by **3bdesigns** » 23 Feb 2006, 14:39

I can take more pictures of whatever parts - just let me know what to take a pic of and I'll get it. I handle all my fish - so it's relatively easy for me to "pose" them.

I'd love to know the sexes of all my plecos - perhaps I'll take pictures of all their bellies and close ups of their heads and post them on my fishie page on my site and you guys can help me out.

I really wonder about my spotted guy (avatar fish) - he/she is just REALLY puffy fat....

3bdesigns · Post by **3bdesigns** » 23 Feb 2006, 14:42

MatsP wrote:Your big spot is L75/L124
Peckoltia sabaji
[Which I read somewhere that Armbuster puts in Hemiancistrus], and that's very unlikely to cross with a Panaque species - but the Peckiltia could well be full of eggs - or just fat... Note how fat my male Panaque maccus is.
--
Mats

Mine is fat like yours - big 'ole belly!! LOL

But back to that drift wood - someone mentioned I need to boil it? Is that if I get "wild" wood or is the stuff I bought at the LFS safe to put in my tank?

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 23 Feb 2006, 14:55

Ok, we're now back on the original programme - I haven't boiled any of my wood in my tanks, but it's a good way to avoid getting nasty stuff into the tank - such as parasites or fungus.

Soaking it with water, however, is necessary. The standard shop-bought bog-wood will be full of tannin's (brown coloured substance) that will make the water look like weak tea...

If you take a piece from your garden (or similar), you will also need to "waterlog" it, so that it doesn't float. This will take several weeks if it's a lighter wood. Some heavier varieties will only take some days. Most leafy trees are fine, cedar is a definite no-no, and I wouldn't use spruce or pine either. Cherry, oak, ash, beech, birch, orange, apple, plum, pear, etc would be just fine. Whatever you happen to have, really.

--
Mats

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 23 Feb 2006, 17:50

Your big spot is L75/L124 Peckoltia sabaji [Which I read somewhere that Armbuster puts in Hemiancistrus]

I think is now called Ancistomus sabaji. Could someone correct me if i'm wrong please.

Anyway, back to the programme.....

A few points to remember with wood.....

No matter how much you boil or soak it, there will be some staining of the water. This will reduce in time, and the longer you boil/soak, the less staining there will be. The stain can be removed from the water by adding carbon or resins to the filter.

I think this stained (correct term - blackwater) look is very attactive and natural, and so do many others. It will cut out a bit of light, so reducing algae problems and making the fish feel more secure (therefore more active).

I would give any wood a boil for one hour, and soak for a week (changing water everyday ).

The last lot of wood I bought I just stuck it straight the tank thinking it'd be fine. Within 24 hours there was fungus all over the wood, and the water was going white.

Fungus is less of an issue though with the shop bought mopani woods.

You can collect some loveley wood from "the wild" at no cost, but do make sure it's recently dead, dry, and not rotting.

I would soak/boil "wild" wood for longer.

O_o · Post by **O_o** » 23 Feb 2006, 19:07

Boil it, they can still have snail eggs and alot of other stuff, it'll also help realase alot of Tannins that might stain your water. Its not necessary but i do recommend it.

3bdesigns · Post by **3bdesigns** » 24 Feb 2006, 14:51

Of course I had just put my piece of wood I bought at the LFS in my tank (rinsed it first) and then I have you guys tell me that I need to boil it and all this jazz (curse that LFS for not telling me this) so all day while at work I was panicing - thinking I'm going to kill my tank.

So when I got home, my tank looks great still and ALL of the plecos in that tank are attached to it. Usually they scatter and hide when I turn on the light - but not yesterday!

My HUGE common, rhino, large spot, bristlenose, and L204 were all stuck on that sucker having a good 'ole time! LOL This morning they were all still on there and my tank still looks great.

Should I take it out and still do the soaking thing and boiling thing? Or is any damage done already?

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 24 Feb 2006, 14:54

Aside from turning the water into "tea", it will most likely not matter much - although my LFS certainly tells me that it's best to soak it first...

If it starts to go funny (like stuff growing on it), you should immediately take it out and boil it.

--
Mats