Clown loaches?

Intravenous · Post by **Intravenous** » 23 Feb 2006, 12:01

Are clown loaches part of the catfish family? From what I can gather they're not, loaches are a different family?If not, would clown loaches get on ok with catfish, and if they would what kind?

I ask because in the next few months my dad might be getting his first tank. He hasnt decided what kind but from the kinds hes been looking at I'm guessing its going to be 300 - 400 litres or around there. My dad doesn't know the first thing about setting up a tank or what fish will go with each other but I will most likely be doing all that and stocking it for him and I'll outline all he'll need to do to maintain it.

I think a group of clown loaches (5 maybe) would look good in this tank because theyre supposed to be very playful and active during the day but I also have developed a soft spot for catfish and would like to sneak one or two in there too. Would there be enough room (or resources) for all these bottom dwellers together?

Post by **Marc van Arc** » 23 Feb 2006, 12:16

No, they aren't catfish, but belong to the Cyprinids.
They can be combined with catfish, as long as all have (plenty of) hiding spaces.
Mind you, clowns may grow pretty large and for some reason they easily get ich (white spot disease) when being transferred from one tank to the other. Also, they can make noises that sound as if a window cracks.....
Very nice and visible fish, certainly in a group of 5 or more.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 23 Feb 2006, 12:18

This is probably not quite in the right place - maybe a moderator can move it to Speak Easy or some other suitable place...

Clown loaches are indeed NOT catfish, they are (as the name implies) loaches - there's a site for them (pretty unsurprising): http://www.loaches.com

A 300-400 liter tank would be on the small side of the loaches reach their maximum size, 12+"/30+ cm, at least if the tank is shaped like the Juwel RIO 300/400, being only 20"/50 cm front-to-back, allowing roughly 10"/25cm fish-size, but it will certainly take quite some time to grow that big, and there are (from what I understand) two different strains of clown loach, one which grows bigger than the other, and the smaller one is more common.

They can certainly share the tank with catfish - as long as you choose the right catfish of course... Suitable tankmates would be medium-sized Loricariidae, assuming you have lots of hiding spaces for both types of fish, but avoid mixing them with for example Corydoras species, as the loach will compete unfairly for the food and the corydoras ends up underfed. Pimelodus pictus (or other Pimolodus spp.) would probably also work well with clown loach. Obviously, bigger catfish that can EAT fish of the size that the clown loach is would NOT be suitable companions. With 2500 different species of catfish it becomes a pretty darn difficult task to enumerate all that are suitable/unsuitable.

--
Mats

sidguppy · Post by **sidguppy** » 23 Feb 2006, 12:26

No, the Clown Loach is not a catfish, but a loach

The loaches aren't a true family, but they belong the large order of the Cypriniformes, to wich belong for example all barbs, all carps, Danio's, Rasbora's, the Asian algae-eaters, "Butterfly Pleco's" and many others.

Unfortunately there's a common name issue:
what we call a "loach" isn't properly housed in a single family, but in 2 families.....
the Cobitidae wich includes for example all Botia's (including the Clown), the Dojo Loach and many others; and the balitoridae wich include all hillstream Loaches like the "Butterfly Pleco" (Beaufortia spp) and other weird things like Homaloptera's, but also perfectly normal looking "loaches" like schistura, Lefua and Nemacheilus, wich look a LOT like stretched out Botia's and behave exactly the same....

Intravenous · Post by **Intravenous** » 23 Feb 2006, 13:31

Well I don't know what the size or shape of the tank would be yet as we haven't got it but I think the footprint of the tank will be bigger than a Juwel 300.

Ideally a catfish that will not outgrow the tank would be best as I think my dad only plans on keeping the one tank and would be unlikely to upgrade. Would a group of 5 clown loaches eventually outgrow this tank? Would a smaller group be better? A catfish about the size of a zebra (but in a lower price range!) or up to about 15cm at its maximum size would be ideal. That pictus suggested, doesnt it grow huge?

Can anyone suggest a cheap (relatively), small pleco that wont be too shy to compete with the loaches and doesnt look like it belongs in a horror film?

Any noise the loaches would make wouldn't be a problem because they wont be near any bedrooms! And I have heard before that they are ich-magnets, so if they get it on entering the tank I'll do my best to take care of that for my dad.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 23 Feb 2006, 13:43

grows to a total length of around 6"/15cm, maybe a little bit longer.

There are LOTS of small Loricariidae. Look at the Hypancistrus, Peckolta and Panaque species. Some that come to mine immediately:

They will all be OK with loaches for competing for food, in my opinion. Prices shouldn't be ridiculus, but of course "cheap" is usually preserved for really common species that are easy to breed - either (which would be a good choice to keep the tank algae-free, and keeps to reasonable size) or the bigger Common plecos and - which would also keep the tank algae free, but needs a bigger tank eventually.

The Ich problem with loaches is that they are sensitive to stress of being moved. Make sure the tank is well-matured before you get them in there, as they are more likely to cope with the stress if the new tank is in good working condition. That's not a GUARANTEE, but it will certainly help matters. Not helping matters here is that loaches are sensitive to some of the medications against Ich...

--
Mats

Intravenous · Post by **Intravenous** » 23 Feb 2006, 13:53

Yes, I 've heard that too (about the medication). Are they sensitive to salt treatment?

I'm planning on cycling the tank without fish first, I'm really excited about it actually. When I set up my first tank a month or two ago I had heard about cycling but I thought it just meant running it for a week with water before I added fish! So this time round I'm looking forward to doing everything properly so the water should have perfect readings for the loaches.

I'll have a look for those catfish when the time comes but really the deciding factor on what I get will probably be choice. I only know of one or two very small fish shops in the area and they will probably have limited choice. I might just end up buying what I can get and if it grows too big it could be rehomed or I could take it if I have a big enough tank by then.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 23 Feb 2006, 14:07

In Edinburgh there's at least two shops that are good. Jools can tell you their names - he showed me around when I was in the area.

From there on it depends on how far you're willing to go to get what you want.

Bear in mind also that a local shop that carry a small number of fish in stock will most likely be able to get something else should you ask for it. Particularly if you're a regular customer at the shop... Small shops don't import their own fish, they buy from a wholesaler, and the wholesaler will have a much bigger list of fish available than what the local shop carries, including different types of plecos. It's not a particularly good idea to buy something "just because it's there" - you'll enjoy it much more if you get something that you actually wanted, even if it takes a bit more effort to get it [or perhaps BECAUSE it took a bit more effort to get!]

If you're willing to travel a bit further, there's Pier Aquatics in Wigan or a branch of Maidenhead aquatics can be found in (for example) York. If you tell the staff at the shop that you're taking the fish back home which is X hours away, they'll help pack it properly.

--
Mats

Intravenous · Post by **Intravenous** » 23 Feb 2006, 14:17

I'm a student at Edinburgh and so live in a flat here with my tank but my family live in Aberdeen and thats where my dad would have his tank. The choice of shops there really isnt that great.

I've fallen in love with one shop here called Aquacadabra, I'd never seen such a big shop just for fish. Its where I got my vampire pleco. I might have a look there and just have the fish driven home then. Any chance you can remember the name of the other shop in Edinburgh so I can check it out? Was aquacadabra one of them?

I don't think my dad would be willing to travel outwith Aberdeen or Edinburgh (or possibly Glasgow) to get a fish so local shops are probably my best bet.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 23 Feb 2006, 15:00

Aquacadabra sounds familiar, but I'm not sure. I remember one place we had to walk down stairs, and I think the room had orange walls - but I'm not sure if that was the one with the stairs or not...

--
Mats

Intravenous · Post by **Intravenous** » 23 Feb 2006, 18:39

well aquacadabra doesnt have orange walls or stairs so i guess it must be the other one! It would be really useful for me to find one nearer by...i dont drive so everytime i want something from the fish shop i spend over Â£10 just getting there and back

Post by **Marc van Arc** » 23 Feb 2006, 22:02

Intravenous wrote:Any noise the loaches would make wouldn't be a problem because they wont be near any bedrooms!

I didn't mention it for that! It's just that this sound may scare you a lot when you are sitting unaware in front of your tank and all of a sudden a window seems to crack

.

FuglyDragon · Post by **FuglyDragon** » 23 Feb 2006, 22:56

Clown loaches are also excellent at controlling snails, they eat them and stop the snail population from taking over your tank (a problem with the dreaded malaysian trumpet snails).

re the max size, they certainly do grow big, but they are slow growers, taking many years to reach large size.

Also be very careful when handling or netting them, they have 2 very large sharp spines (on gill covers from memory) but basically on the sides of their heads which can easilly get entangled in a net.

Incidentally 2 of my 5 really like the courgette (zuchinni) I feed the plecs in the same tank and make a very audible clicking noise as they eat it.

They also have a little trick of lying on their side and looking very dead, will give you a good fright the first couple of times you see it but apparently its quite normal for them.

Good luck with your tank.

ginosanti · Post by **ginosanti** » 24 Feb 2006, 08:26

I have 5 Botia almorhae, and these are very playful, they tend to stay smaller than clowns, and are less skittish. I've had them for over 7 years now, and never had trouble with aggressive behaviour. The only problem i can think of is that they are fast, so they'll eat the food before the catfish come out.

But give them a try!

http://loaches.com/species_pages/botia_almorhae.html