zebra pleco pricing

TiGrInUs · Post by **TiGrInUs** » 05 Feb 2006, 06:55

Just how much do these go for now a days? My lfs got one in that is about an inch. It is going for $150US dollars. Last i saw 3" were going for $75,,,are they really up to $150 for a one inch specimen? Please let me know because I am thinking about purchasing or trading for it. thanks

Mindy · Post by **Mindy** » 05 Feb 2006, 10:15

They really are highly priced these days. Banned on import, they are harder to come buy these days. Though captive bred ones will make their way to the shops in time, but it takes a long time to grow them to any sort of saleable size. Which probably also contributes to the price. I wouldn't sell my fry at such a small size, personally.

Fish Soup · Post by **Fish Soup** » 05 Feb 2006, 14:02

$150 is about right for a 1" fry on todays market. There is a 1.25" on Aquabid right now. Currently at $152 with 3 days left. Wild caught are going for twice that amount.

http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/ ... 1139456033

Don

powerfulpumpkins · Post by **powerfulpumpkins** » 05 Feb 2006, 23:02

The pricing of Zebra Plecos does trouble me somewhat.
We all know they have gone up in price due to the ban on export from Brazil or what ever the story is.
I can understand those who have success breeding them charging quite a price because they take a while to raise but I cannot help thinking that such high pricing limits the sread of the gene pool and the spread of the fish themselves which potentially is a bad thing.
I just hope in the coming years more people are successful in breeding Zebras so once again more fish keepers can own this beauty.

PP

Owch · Post by **Owch** » 06 Feb 2006, 07:27

To put this in to some sort of perspective. Juvenile (8")adult Arowana's are going for Â£2000, and Koi Carp can fetch Â£10000 or more. Both of these fish are readily available in the aquarium trade, but reach such high prices because people will pay it, for a fish they desire.

Expect Zebras to get more expensive, even when the market gets more of the homebred fish.

Tom

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 06 Feb 2006, 10:27

I think these fish will remain pricey. Whether they stay at around the price they are right now, go up a bit, or down a bit is something we can probably only tell when time has passed and we can use the hindsight method to determine the past future...

But they are not suitable for commercial breeding, because they are slow to breed. Someone really skilled can probably get two or three broods a year, and they take a year or so to grow to an inch, then another year before they are two inches, and a further year for the next inch or so to almost "full-grown" size. And you get maybe 15 or so fry from each spawn. That's 40-50 fish per year, that takes a good year before you can sell them (if you sell them at a good inch long).

Compare this to Bristlenoses that grow to an inch in a matter of months, and you can sell them at this size since they are quite robust and not sensitive to being moved around, and you can have a brood every five weeks or so. Each brood is 40-80 fish.

I'm not saying anyone would get rich breeding either, but if you want to breed either for a "small positive inflow of money", I would recommend the bristlenoses...

A further point is of course that _IF_ you succeed in breeding Zebra pleco's, you'll have to find someone to buy them. I doubt very much that I could take 10-15 1" H. Zebra to my local shop and expect a store credit for $1000 or so - they wouldn't be able to sell those and would rather spend $1000 on something that is easier to sell...

--
Mats

laurab5 · Post by **laurab5** » 06 Feb 2006, 12:03

We once had koi. But the gill disease reached us and all died. We had a show female that was 18 inches and people asked for $1000. But, i would not let her go because she ate from my hand

Mindy · Post by **Mindy** » 06 Feb 2006, 15:39

I breed Zebras not for the potential profit involved, but for the fish itself whose habitat and future are threatened by members of my own species

. However, Zebras always been one of the more pricey plecs, though admittedly, not what they are now.

The post above touches on some good points though, it takes a long time to get them to any sort of size and they need a very warm tank (which obviously incurs some cost), plus high protein foods, etc, etc. There's a lot of work that goes into raising these fish for sale... or even just for breeding. I know it's easy to think of everyone just profiteering, and some are sadly, but not everyone. I promise!

Phathead6669 · Post by **Phathead6669** » 06 Feb 2006, 17:30

To put this in to some sort of perspective. Juvenile (8")adult Arowana's are going for Â£2000, and Koi Carp can fetch Â£10000 or more.

If I am reading this right than that would be almost double for them here which is insane. Arowana's at that size go for like $100 if the store can even sell them. I think the same two Arowana's have be floating around Ottawa for years. They started at my buddies house then went back to the store when they got to big and then somebody else bought them. Other than those though you don't see them often cause nobody wants them around here.

And pay $15000-20000 dollars for a Koi, I'm just going to say wow I wish I was breeding them and selling them over there.

pleco_breeder · Post by **pleco_breeder** » 06 Feb 2006, 17:44

Hello all,

I've chosen this topic to make my return to the list because it is one that I have been kind of split on myself for a couple years.

I can personally remember selling zebra fry, 1.25-1.5 inch SL, to shops and got $22 each. It wasn't much, but it did more than pay for the cost of keeping the tank going. When I started looking for breeders 2 years ago, the price had already gone up to $100 each and were difficult to find at that price.

The facts are that some, not all, people have put this fish at risk, and we have to live with the world they have created. I am personally happy to say that I am on a waiting list to buy 4 sexed fish at $300 each knowing that I can make some difference in the future of the species.

Larry Vires

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 06 Feb 2006, 18:18

Welcome back to Planet Catfish, Larry.

I _wish_ I had the dollars to start a farm for these too... At the moment, I'm quite successfully breding my regular bristlenoses, and not much else.

Best of luck on the breeding project - if more people bred these fish, then the prices would definitely go down - there's only a limited (albeit amazingly large) number of people that are willing to spend $150-300 for a single fish. Or $10000 for that matter.

And a point of clarification: I've certainly seen arrowanas for much less than thousands here in the UK, and the same applies to Koi. But there's Koi and then there's KOI. Some sell for a few dollars, others for thousands. It's all depending on how pretty the pattern is, what size they are, etc.

--
Mats

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 06 Feb 2006, 19:27

Are not the expensive arrowanas the Asian species Scleropages formosus?

These are a CITES protected species, hence the huge price tag. All individuals for sale should be captive bred, microchipped, and with documentation.

The South American Species Osteoglossum bicirrhosum are two a penny in most stores.

With regard to Larry's comments I agree. I find it completely unacceptable that as a hobby, we can bring a species to the brink of extinction in it's natural range, and then try to claim that we have it's best interests at heart by trying to save it by catching more of them.

I am totally against the non-sustainable harvesting of fish from the wild, but I imagine I am in a tiny minority of people on this site.

powerfulpumpkins · Post by **powerfulpumpkins** » 06 Feb 2006, 22:13

Yes this is a troublesome issue.
It pleases me greatly to hear forum members such as Mindy breed Zebras and Larry is hoping to get back into it soon with some sexed fish.
I try where ever possible these days to buy multiple species of a pleco with the hope I will get fish breeding to help support the species in the long run- I just think its morally right to do.
I think my saddest fishkeeping day was last year when I returned from work to find the new filter I had on a tank had not worked as expected and due to the reduction in turn over oxygen had dropped and I lost 2 of my 3 Zebras. Any such breeding project for those is now doomed- I doubt my Zebra is a Hermaphrodite with the potential to breed with itself LOL.
I think the way the world is heading from an environmental point of view it is important that aquarists keep stock of fish species from across the globe as man has a great ability to destroy natural habitat, there only chance for reintroduction being from home raised stock.

PP

snowball · Post by **snowball** » 07 Feb 2006, 00:01

A sad fact about highly priced rare fish is that they tend to attract some people who want to own them for that reason alone - because they are rare and expensive. I shudder to think of how many single zebras (and other similarly threatened fish) are kept as display fish in a community tank, with little or no chance of ever breeding.

TiGrInUs · Post by **TiGrInUs** » 07 Feb 2006, 01:11

excellent replies everyone. I guess these really are up to $150 now. I would love to, and did once plan to start a zebra pleco breeding tank. Unfortunatly I do not have the money. Im still debating whether I should get this fish or not. Maybe I could raise it and eventually sell it to a breeder. It is in a tank with a polypterus and a jardini arowana!!! It might not even be there now.

What do you all think?? It would be housed with a few discus, rummy nose tetras, and a 3-4" gold nugget in a 44g corner hex tank.

Mindy · Post by **Mindy** » 07 Feb 2006, 06:22

Can I just say that in the case of the zebra, it is not the fishkeeping hobby that has put this fish in danger. It's the plans of the Brazilian government to build a dam across the one river in the world where they come from that threatens their habitat that is causing the biggest problem.

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 07 Feb 2006, 07:05

Can I just say that in the case of the zebra, it is not the fishkeeping hobby that has put this fish in danger

Yes it is. This fish has been over-exploited, and stocks have not been allowed to recover. This is why export is illegal. The hobby may be in denial, but it is a fact.

The dam is an additional threat. But rumour has it, that won't be going ahead now.

My point is, that the aquarium trade made this fish threatened long before it was public knowledge about the dam.

I feel people are using the dam as an excuse now to justify their actions. I'm sure that if the dam was never planned, and the IBAMA had never restricted sale, that hobbyists would continue to buy wild H.zebra for silly money, and cause the loss of this species in it's natural range.

Mindy · Post by **Mindy** » 07 Feb 2006, 08:26

Well, if I'm wrong, then I stand corrected. From the time I became aware of Zebras, the threat was from the Dam. The ban on import seemed puzzling to a lot of people in Zebra circles. Even those who've had them lots longer than I have. The ban happened after I started keeping Zebs, but it was already being rumoured, and the prices were already climbing. Anyway, like I said, if I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

Post by **Barbie** » 07 Feb 2006, 17:05

You aren't so much wrong as have a differing opinion Mindy. Zebras are actually being exported from Brazil right now for exorbitant prices and labelled for "research" purposes. If Brazil has more income from them, evidently they're not quite as endangered as they thought. It all makes it very hard to determine the true cause of the problem, IMO.

Barbie

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 07 Feb 2006, 17:17

From the time I became aware of Zebras, the threat was from the Dam

How long ago was this? H.zebra has been exported for 17 years now.

The ban on import seemed puzzling to a lot of people in Zebra circles.

The ban is very simple. These fish have become endangered because of overfishing. Therefore they are protected by IBAMA.

It may seem confusing, as on one side they are being protected by the government's environmental department, and then on the other they are being threatened by the governments industrialisation programme of the amazonian interior.

This does appear condradictory, but this is a government we are talking about here! Joined up thinking (especially with regard to the environment) is never on the agenda.

I'm sure the government just set up IBAMA to appease the pressure from Greenpeace, Friends of the Earth and the domestic environmental lobby etc.

Yes, they can make tiny differences like banning the export of one fish for instance, but they have absolutely no influence in the big picture when it come to strategic development and industrialisation.

I'm sure everyone that works for IBAMA is opposed to the dam , but there's nothing they can do about it! All they can do is prevent the immediate loss of a species from it's habitat due to overfishing. This is their job.

We see this conflict of interest within our own government. Even QANGOS like English Nature have very little influence on government development policy.

These organisations act in more of an advisory role. More often that not, the economic pressure is too great for environmental issues to get a look in.

Post by **Shane** » 07 Feb 2006, 19:41

The ban is very simple. These fish have become endangered because of overfishing.

Racoll,
I agree with your post, but do not believe that the above statement can be supported. Brazil never did any studies of population densities, reproductive data, numbers exported, etc, (heck, only one of several known Hypancistrus spp in the Xingu is even described) so it is impossible to say if there was or was not overfishing. Given that the Xingu basin has the same landmass as the country of France, and H. zebra can only be collected by a few specialist collectors with dive gear, I find it hard to believe that commercial collection was having much of an impact. Whatever the reason though it can not be a bad thing to give the little guys some time off.
-Shane

Caol_ila · Post by **Caol_ila** » 07 Feb 2006, 19:55

I have an article here in which the author states that the worldbank never gave Brazil the needed credits for electricity production dams/manmade lakes. And also that the public opposed the "plan 2010" because it was unrentable (the electricity was planned to be used in the highly developed areas in the southeast) and too many people would have to be moved from the Xingu basin.

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 07 Feb 2006, 20:22

Shane, if there was no overfishing, then why? Overfishing is consistent with the rapid hike in prices before the ban.

Were IBAMA just trying to stamp their authority on trade, by restricting sales of an iconic flagship species?

Also, in your opinion Shane, is the export of wild fish really sustainable? Lots of my friends and colleages find it totally unacceptable that I support a trade in wild animals with so few restrictions.

I always say that threats such as gold-mining dwarf that of the aquarium hobby, but they are correct to argue that this excuse is poor, as it abdicates all responsibility to others.

I have an article here in which the author states that the worldbank never gave Brazil the needed credits for electricity production

This is good news.

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 07 Feb 2006, 20:29

Given that the Xingu basin has the same landmass as the country of France, and H. zebra can only be collected by a few specialist collectors with dive gear, I find it hard to believe that commercial collection was having much of an impact.

Also, it was my understanding that many of these species were restricted to one or two cachoeiras, over maybe only 100 miles of river, making them exteremely vulnerable to over-exploitation.

Yann · Post by **Yann** » 07 Feb 2006, 21:42

@ Shane!

No study has been made but the fact the fishermen used to collect over 100 during a good day in the early days (mid 90's) and that just before the ban, they would consider themselves lucky to be able to catch 10... that makes to me already an alarming note....and I guess the IBAMA, mainly based its decision regarding this...

Not too long ago the retail price of Hz in the low water season was just around 15-20$ a piece!!!

I am still amazed by the number of people that are still searching for specimens...it was already one of the most wanted catfish before the ban, but since then...it has even worsten...and the prices ask for has been really outragous!

Cheers
Yann

powerfulpumpkins · Post by **powerfulpumpkins** » 08 Feb 2006, 00:38

This is an interesting debate.
I have a great interest in wildlife- nature as a whole but I also enjoy keeping tropical fish.
I could drive myself mad wondering if I was right or wrong to buy a fish which could for one reason or other be under threat in its natural habitat.
There are a great many people out there trying to breed H Zebra because they care for the species survival. There are some out there I guess just wanting to make money.
The important issue as I see it is that Hypancistrus Zebra as a species survives in both the wild and home aquariums for as long as it is humanly possible.
The balance of probability indicates that sooner or later, be it via a new dam or pollution there is a real threat that H Zebra will be wiped out. Now if we had never collected such fish and got them into home aquariums that would be it DEAD and GONE for ever.
We can argue for ever and a day as to if it is right to collect and export such fish but the fact is by doing so the fish and its genetics are safe what ever happens in the Xingu.
That potentially gives the ability to restock the Xingu if anything ever did happen to the wild environment which we could never do without such fish being caught and exported.

PP

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 08 Feb 2006, 06:44

I am still amazed by the number of people that are still searching for specimens...

I think part of it is the status symbol of being able to source and afford this species.

Yes they are beautiful, but so are L260 and L204 for instance! These fish cost Â£15!

L204 and L018 have both overtaken H.zebra in the number of hits on the cat-elog page.

bronzefry · Post by **bronzefry** » 08 Feb 2006, 22:05

There has been a lot of large-scale construction in South America over the past 20-30 years. When this type of construction occurs, it infringes on precious resources like water. There are several major infrastructure projects in Brazil alone:a new highway, the dam, etc. A lot of logging and sometimes blasting preceeds these projects. If one of those projects comes near the habitat of a species, this will create chaos. I wonder if the question should be: How many species of all kinds were never known about?

I pay about $4-$10 for my fish. If it's more, I shouldn't own them. I'm not that experienced yet.
Amanda

TiGrInUs · Post by **TiGrInUs** » 09 Feb 2006, 02:56

Well I have not decided not to purchase the zebra pleco.

pleco_breeder · Post by **pleco_breeder** » 09 Feb 2006, 03:18

Just an update, and probably off topic a bit, I just made arrangements to buy 4 more fish to add to my colony. Not all breeders are in the zebra game for money, but it is still quite expensive to maintain their unusual condition and feedings of live foods. I'm not trying to substantiate any of this, but people who want zebras will pay the price being asked. I'm a perfect example of that.

Larry Vires