Under hand trading - using a planet catfish Picture...

smithrc · Post by **smithrc** » 08 Dec 2005, 01:13

Who would I need to mail about someone ripping people off for fish and (in my case) using a picture from the cat-elog to advertise 'their' fish??

thanks

[edited for poor spelling]

Post by **Silurus** » 08 Dec 2005, 02:13

Please contact Jools.

YouTube · Post by **Jools** » 30 Dec 2005, 11:25

You should also contact the site and give them a deadline for removing the image. If they do not, report it to their webhosts.

Jools

Jackster · Post by **Jackster** » 30 Dec 2005, 18:41

I've had several people steal (use without permission) my images (logos and photos).
The problem is that if you did not previously copyright the image your legal options
are limited to contacting the website host and asking that your images be removed.
I had 2 logos stolen that I was never paid for and have successfully had the logos
removed from 2 different hosts. The problem is that the individuals that are using my
images just seek out another host and hope I don't find the new location or remove
the images for awhile and then simply re-upload them at a later time. As far as legal
action goes, I really can't do much because I didn't copyright the images before I sent
the sample jpg's to the client that stole them. Some people are just dishonest and
unethical. In my case the individuals that scammed me are locals and via 'word of mouth"
they have already been "black listed" to all the graphic artists in my area and to all
the bars, taverns and pubs which since they are musicians has hurt them a great deal.

Copyright laws are complicated and it's even more confusing when you consider
wordwide issues. My advice is to not put anything on the internet that you are afraid
that someone may steal or copy. If you post fish photos just assume that some idiot is
going to use them without your permission. My other advice is to copyright all your
photos prior to posting them on the web. This way you will be able to take legal action
against anyone who uses your images and your action will have some "legal teeth".

smithrc · Post by **smithrc** » 31 Dec 2005, 13:01

The situation went away - another site had also had its images used (including the copyright note across them!)

the site that was using them has closed...

Mike_Noren · Post by **Mike_Noren** » 31 Dec 2005, 17:06

Jackster wrote: going to use them without your permission. My other advice is to copyright all your
photos prior to posting them on the web.

My understanding is that copyright is automatic - you automatically have copyright of your image as soon as you've taken it, you don't have to register it or anything.

Although it seems to me this was not just a case of image theft, but also of attempted fraud - the fish on the picture was not the fish for sale.

PlecoCrazy · Post by **PlecoCrazy** » 02 Jan 2006, 03:45

Without a copyright there is really no proof its your picture.

Mike_Noren · Post by **Mike_Noren** » 02 Jan 2006, 09:49

That's a different issue - merely taking the picture gives you automatic copyright, but you may not be able to prove you really took the picture.

However, it's not that hard to prove that you have the original - you shoot in raw and post only JPEG, or you add a copyright notice to the EXIF or print it on the picture, or you simply downscale the image before posting it. There's also various watermarking technologies available.

Jackster · Post by **Jackster** » 02 Jan 2006, 19:41

Photos and digital artwork do have a so-called automatic copyrights. But if you attempt
to take legal action against someone that is infringing on your automatic copyright
you will find that in most cases it will not stand up in court. A registered copyright will
allow you to take specific legal action against anyone that violates your registered copyright.

I can prove that any of my digital files are mine but the court recognizes that anything
rendered on a computer can also be altered. I agree that it would be hard to make a fake
raw format photo file and that's how I archive all my digital photos but they should still
have registered copyrights if you want to be protected from unethical people on the internet
(which there are many!).

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 03 Jan 2006, 13:45

Raw format images are of course just data-files of some described format, and can (in theory, at least) be created from other sources than a camera.

And I agree with the "registration is necessary to take legal action", at least in the sense that if you need to go to court, you'd need to have it legally recognized that you are the copyright holder. However, there's nothing wrong in writing to someone displaying YOUR picture, and if they do not remove it within a reasonable time (a few days, maybe a week), go on to the hosting company.

If you can produce a "full-size" image from a digital camera of something that is not full-size on a web-site, I'd say that's pretty good evidence. Similarly, if you can show that you have a fish (for instance) in your posession, in your tank, with some recognisable features from your tank in the picture, I'd say that the court would have to consider that as part of the evidence that YOU took the photo. Of course, a generic photo of a fish only, with generic gravel/sand/wood background wold be harder to prove that YOU took the photo.

--
Mats

Mike_Noren · Post by **Mike_Noren** » 03 Jan 2006, 18:08

FWIW... the original RAW image can _not_ be recreated from a JPEG, because JPEG is a lossy compression format. This means that while you could in theory reformat a JPEG image to RAW, you could not restore the data irreversibly culled from the image by the JPEG compression algorithm.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 03 Jan 2006, 18:39

Mike_Noren wrote:FWIW... the original RAW image can _not_ be recreated from a JPEG, because JPEG is a lossy compression format. This means that while you could in theory reformat a JPEG image to RAW, you could not restore the data irreversibly culled from the image by the JPEG compression algorithm.

Agreed, but unless you KNOW what each individual pixel is supposed to be, and if the JPEG that you start out with is low compression (high quality), it's quite possible that you could come up with a RAW file that looks very similar to one that just came out of a camera.

A high-compression (low quality) JPEG would have a recognizable JPEG compresssion distortion in it, and that would probably make it very hard to "make RAW".

You'd obviously also have to fill in the remaining 4 bits of data with "something", otherwise the RAW data would look different than that of a camera. A random number between 0-15 would probably be quite good, other mechanisms would also be available.

As far as I know, all cameras supporting RAW has a 12-bit A/D converter, so that would be the output to the RAW format. It would also be necessary to duplicate the GREEN in some way, and doing so in a way that makes it realistic, not just taking the same number twice, since the sensor actually has RGBG-format.

--
Mats

magickzzl · Post by **magickzzl** » 04 Jan 2006, 00:34

Jackster wrote:I've had several people steal (use without permission) my images (logos and photos).
The problem is that if you did not previously copyright the image your legal options
are limited to contacting the website host and asking that your images be removed.
I had 2 logos stolen that I was never paid for and have successfully had the logos
removed from 2 different hosts. The problem is that the individuals that are using my
images just seek out another host and hope I don't find the new location or remove
the images for awhile and then simply re-upload them at a later time. As far as legal
action goes, I really can't do much because I didn't copyright the images before I sent
the sample jpg's to the client that stole them. Some people are just dishonest and
unethical. In my case the individuals that scammed me are locals and via 'word of mouth"
they have already been "black listed" to all the graphic artists in my area and to all
the bars, taverns and pubs which since they are musicians has hurt them a great deal.

Copyright laws are complicated and it's even more confusing when you consider
wordwide issues. My advice is to not put anything on the internet that you are afraid
that someone may steal or copy. If you post fish photos just assume that some idiot is
going to use them without your permission. My other advice is to copyright all your
photos prior to posting them on the web. This way you will be able to take legal action
against anyone who uses your images and your action will have some "legal teeth".

Actully, the moment you create something, its copyright you, and if your upload dates are older then theirs, there is your proof... atleast where I am.

PlecoCrazy · Post by **PlecoCrazy** » 04 Jan 2006, 02:29

and if your upload dates are older then theirs, there is your proof... atleast where I am.

All you have to do is change the date on your computer back and copy the file from one spot to another and then the created date of the file is now changed.

sidguppy · Post by **sidguppy** » 12 Jan 2006, 16:00

Similar, but different case:

what to do if someone else has some copies of pictures made by ME with my own camera (he got them for personal use, because I took pix of his fish), and now flaunts them in the catelog under HIS name as if he took them; without asking, without any permission to do so (!), but getting the credits of the pictures wich he never took in the first place?

I discovered a case of exactly this, and saying that I'm not particular amused by this is an understatement.

btw I can back this case up by sending Jools or Shane the entire untweaked series as a zipfile (they're large files, too big to stick em to a mail in 1 go)
a bit of software wizardry can prove they're all made by the same camera I took my other catelog-pix with.

Post by **Marc van Arc** » 12 Jan 2006, 16:22

sidguppy wrote: what to do if someone else has some copies of pictures made by ME with my own camera (he got them for personal use, because I took pix of his fish), and now flaunts them in the catelog under HIS name as if he took them; without asking, without any permission to do so (!), but getting the credits of the pictures wich he never took in the first place?

First: I'm not flaunting whatsoever.
Second: I sent the pictures along with loads of synonym emails to Jools in a very busy time, but yes: I should have added you took them. So both credits are yours. I hope this makes you very happy again.
Third: I couldn't have asked your permission even if I had thought about it. And you know what I'm talking about.

sidguppy · Post by **sidguppy** » 12 Jan 2006, 17:42

First: your name under my handywork -> taking credit for another man's work.
in plain language: plagiarism aka copyright violations.

Second: finding those pics in this manner didn't make me happy at all (I was re-reading and checking on new Auchenoglanis occidentalis-pix of the Tanganyikan variety when I saw something familiar and had a wtf??-moment)
The fact that you clearly state that you didn't even think about asking permission, DID show me exactly the ethics involved however.

Third: that's plain wrong, because a simple pm would have done the job (the asking) because I actually DO read my pm's/email, regardless of the fact if I will reply or no.

But I'll keep it at the facts, instead of starting a major mudsling

Post by **Marc van Arc** » 12 Jan 2006, 18:30

sidguppy wrote:But I'll keep it at the facts, instead of starting a major mudsling

Yes, do so.
Stick to your facts and be happy.
Btw: you've edited (or anyway softened) your previous post. Did you also get the feeling your reply was somewhat over the top?

sidguppy · Post by **sidguppy** » 16 Jan 2006, 10:15

post-Edit: NO I'll not be roused again.

phew.

Caol_ila · Post by **Caol_ila** » 16 Jan 2006, 10:47

Do you guys hit each other when you meet on family celebrations like christmas or marriages?

Jackster · Post by **Jackster** » 17 Jan 2006, 04:35

Never use another persons image without permission (written is best) and then always
give the author (photographer) credit by name.

It's a must if you want trust!

sidguppy · Post by **sidguppy** » 17 Jan 2006, 08:16

Do you guys hit each other when you meet on family celebrations like christmas or marriages?

he ain't no family of me.

I specifically kept any name, pseudonym or personal info about family-relations from my postings, and for a reason!

Ah well; always this way now....

Post by **Barbie** » 17 Jan 2006, 19:04

OK, we got the point. Enough, ok? The point has been clarified on both sides. Jools will need to clear up the rest of this and for now, he's out of the country and should get to enjoy his trip. Thanks!

Barbie

YouTube · Post by **Jools** » 19 Jan 2006, 16:41

Sid,

When did you learn about this? Why didm't you just email me about it! I don't know these things unless someone tells me.

Jools

Post by **Marc van Arc** » 21 Jan 2006, 14:33

Jools,
Thanks for settling this matter, which shouldn't have been on a forum in the first place. I regret the whole situation.
Marc