substrate cleaning questions

pictus_man_77 · Post by **pictus_man_77** » 07 Jan 2006, 14:47

i have quite large gravel in my tank (maybe 5mm) and i use a gravel vac
now, im thinking of switching substrate to either fine gravel, or sand
now, how in the world do you clean those?
i would have thought my gravel vac would suck the gravel up with it if the gravel was finer, as its sucking end is about 3 cm in diameter!

Owch · Post by **Owch** » 07 Jan 2006, 16:03

Sand + Corys = Clean sand

Fine gravel will be OK in your gravel vac if you dont allow it to come too far up the pipe.

pictus_man_77 · Post by **pictus_man_77** » 07 Jan 2006, 18:58

suppose i could just bend the pipe a little, to restrict the water flow
but doesnt anything get buried under the sand, like poop? then how do you vac it?
you cant gravel vac the sand? can you?
and if i switch substrates, can anyone suggest what kind of depth substrate it should be? 1-2 inches maybe?

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 07 Jan 2006, 19:21

fish poop is lighter than sand, so it just sits on top. you suck it up with a regular pipe. You will remove a bit of sand like this, but you just rinse the sand and add it back to the tank.

as far as depth goes, don't have any more than about 1cm. More than this and it can go anoxic.

If you don't have fish that will stir it up for you, you will need to run your fingers through it when you do your weekly water changes.

mandy · Post by **mandy** » 07 Jan 2006, 21:49

I wouldnt use sand. It is a much bigger hassle than it is worth, and dangerous if not stirred all the time.(It compacts easily, and toxic gases build up,produced by dacaying organic matter. Then by not stirring it up for a while, then you do, you release these gases into the tank.... if too much of it gets released at once, it will kill your fish) I would use fine gravel. It wont get sucked up as long as you are paying attention.

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 07 Jan 2006, 22:17

I disagree mandy.

I've never had any problems with sand provided you use less than 1cm. All you really need is just enough to cover the bottom of the tank. 5mm is fine.

mandy · Post by **mandy** » 08 Jan 2006, 01:56

I agree that with the less than 1 cm, you should be ok. However, I love to landscape and plant the heck out of my tanks, and 1 cm of some sand aint gonna cut it for that. But you are right, if you do it the way you suggest, you will be in the clear of any problems....

snowball · Post by **snowball** » 08 Jan 2006, 02:07

I use a gravel vacuume with an extra long pickup tube to clean the sand in my tank (which is only 1 - 2cm deep).

The trick is simply to kink the hose before the sand reaches the top, just as you would with gravel, however it is more time consuming as it takes much longer for the fine sand particles to drop back down.

I don't worry too much if I suck out some of the sand as whatever ends up in the bucket can alwasy be rinsed and replaced if necessary, or add a handfull of new sand to top it back up.

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 08 Jan 2006, 10:32

However, I love to landscape and plant the heck out of my tanks, and 1 cm of some sand aint gonna cut it for that.

Yes, obviously you won't be able to plant in the substrate. However, you can still have an attractive planted tank by growing Anubius, Java fern and Java moss on your bogwood. You can also grow floating plants.

Another very important rule when using sand is to make sure your filter intake is at least 3 inches above the substrate. This will prevent your filter getting clogged.

coelacanth · Post by **coelacanth** » 08 Jan 2006, 11:53

We regularly use much deeper levels of sand here at work, without any observable problems. Using appropriate sand prevents compacting, and carefully using a gravel cleaner with a thumb or finger over the other end of the hose (to create a stop/start effect) means that when necessary sand can be cleaned quickly and thoroughly in the unlikely event that significant quantities of detritus should get under it.
Alternatively small amounts can be syphoned out at each water change, rinsed and returned.
Having fish that will move the sand around certainly helps (along with adequate filtration and circulation), and some plants grow extremely well in a sand substrate.

Kana3 · Post by **Kana3** » 08 Jan 2006, 11:54

If I had to go through the ordeal of replacing an untried substrate and had concerns, I'd be inclined to toss a few handfuls in a bucket for a test run.

I like Snowballs idea of the longer pickup tube.

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 08 Jan 2006, 12:20

some plants grow extremely well in a sand substrate

I know this, but I recommended a depth of less than 1cm, as this is the easiest low maintenance way of having a sand substrate for someone who's a beginner, or never used sand before.

This method won't require messing around with gravel siphons, and there is little risk of compaction in neglected areas such as under decor.

coelacanth · Post by **coelacanth** » 08 Jan 2006, 12:54

racoll wrote: I know this, but I recommended a depth of less than 1cm, as this is the easiest low maintenance way of having a sand substrate for someone who's a beginner, or never used sand before.

Agreed, always better to build up confidence in something new by taking the most reliable approach and then building on that. I'm suppose I've seen the old myths about sand in books so often in the past (probably written by people who've never actually tried it, based on earlier writings from people who simply didn't have access to the kinds of aquarium management equipment we have now) that I get a bit impatient with the subject.

pictus_man_77 · Post by **pictus_man_77** » 08 Jan 2006, 13:41

im thinking alot of people have alot of different views!!!
how does a mixture sound, if i mix my medium sized gravel with sand, to give a river substratey kind of effect

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 08 Jan 2006, 14:14

how does a mixture sound, if i mix my medium sized gravel with sand, to give a river substratey kind of effect

Excellent idea. That gives a really good effect.

I would still only use less than 1cm though.

snowball · Post by **snowball** » 09 Jan 2006, 01:00

yep that's what I've done in my tank, I put a 'sand pit' in two of the corners where the Brochis like to lurk. here's a few pics.

This is the side of the tank where the sand is seperated from the gravel in the center of the tank by a piece of wood. At the front (left side of pic) it spills out and mixes under some of the gravel for a few inches.

In the diagonally opposite corner of the tank is a larger area of sand, it is kept in place on one side by the water lilly roots; at the front the water current prevents it from moving forward.

Phathead6669 · Post by **Phathead6669** » 09 Jan 2006, 17:23

I personaly have no experience with sand. With that being said my buddies dad has a 220G tank with sand. This guys dad also know wtf he is taking about.

Your average gravel vac pick up tube is approx 1ft/30cm and round. He is using the new oval shaped pick up tube that is approx 2ft. This gives the extra room for the sand to float in while being cleaned. Also this new pick up tube(forget what company makes it) has a auto block mechanism that opens and closes the tube on its own.

Another thing he has done is use a screen(like the type in windows and patio doors) and covered the coventional undergravel fiter plates with it. This helps prevent alot of the sand from getting to the very bottom of the tank.

While we are on the subject of gravel cleaning. Anybody ever try to hook up and Fluval or equvilent canister filter to the pick up tube of an Undergravel filter. Using just the sponge, this works pretty good but requires cleaning the the filter right after it has cleaned up all the fish crap and other crap.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 10 Jan 2006, 10:44

Phathead6669 wrote:While we are on the subject of gravel cleaning. Anybody ever try to hook up and Fluval or equvilent canister filter to the pick up tube of an Undergravel filter. Using just the sponge, this works pretty good but requires cleaning the the filter right after it has cleaned up all the fish crap and other crap.

The whole point of an undergravel filter is that it:
1. Acts as a mechanical filter in that it captures "dirt" and holds it.
2. Acts as a biological filter by hosting the Ammonia->Nitrite->Nitrate converting bacteria

Connecting an external (or internal) filter on top of an undergravel filter is probably not very efficient - certainly the mechanical filtration is already done to a very large extent, and the biological filter would be reduced because the oxygen content is lower in the water that has passed through the gravel - because it's biological filtration has already used up some of the oxygen.

So the conclusions is that it's a much better idea to use two separate filtration systems, each taking in "fresh uncleaned" water, rather than having two inline filters. If the filter clogs up quickly, you probably haven't got enough filtration capacity in the tank.

--
Mats

Phathead6669 · Post by **Phathead6669** » 10 Jan 2006, 12:59

No i meant as a way to clean the gravel. Don't leave the filter hooked up all the time just until you've cleaned teh bottom of the tank. After that you hook you power head or whatever you use to the undergravel filter.

Connecting the filter is like doing a gravel vac.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 10 Jan 2006, 13:10

I don't think that will work. Generally, when cleaning any filtration device (air-filter on a car, or a gravel filter in a fish-tank) you want to push/pull the stuff that is stuck the way it came in (i.e. stuff sucked into the gravel should be pulled back out again). Chances are that you just make things worse if you keep sucking it into where it's already got stuck... Of course, you could put the outlet of the powerhead on the UGF and "blow it out", but that would cause a right mess in the tank, and it's probably just going back in again into the gravel filter, so I don't see much point in that, except if you want cloudy water in the tank for a bit...

I think a regular gravel cleaner that goes to the drain/into a bucket is the best way to clean a undergravel filter.

Of course, I don't have a single tank with undergravel filter at the moment, so I'm not REALLY the right person to comment on that. I did have a couple of tanks ages ago with UGF, and I cleaned them by (inaproprietly) draining all the water and rinsing the gravel with tap-water.

All my tanks nowadays are equipped with power-filters that use sponges inside a plastic container of some kind - for most tanks it's one internal filter, but I've got an external Eheim filter on my big tank as well as the internal one.

--
Mats

coelacanth · Post by **coelacanth** » 10 Jan 2006, 16:40

Phathead6669 wrote:Anybody ever try to hook up and Fluval or equvilent canister filter to the pick up tube of an Undergravel filter. Using just the sponge, this works pretty good but requires cleaning the the filter right after it has cleaned up all the fish crap and other crap.

I've heard of people using an external canister filter connected to a Gravel Vac, is this what you mean?

External canister filters can also be used to run reverse-flow undergavel filters, but I don't see the point of this as most of the oxygen will be used up by the bacteria in the canister filter, so the U/G will be pretty redundant.

Phathead6669 · Post by **Phathead6669** » 10 Jan 2006, 17:00

I've heard of people using an external canister filter connected to a Gravel Vac, is this what you mean?

No I mean you have your UGFilter setup with a powerhead running. 4-6mnths later you decide to do a gravel vac. You happen to have an extra canister filter. So instead of using the Gravel Vac and bucket/sink you just hook up the canister filter(inlet tube) to where the power head normal is connected.(Pick up tube of undergravel filter) Then turn the filter on.(I would only use the sponge filter insert cause the filter can fill fast with crap.) You can then watch from underneath the tank to watch all the crap fly away.

Hopefully that clears it up a bit.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 10 Jan 2006, 17:12

Phathead6669 wrote:
I've heard of people using an external canister filter connected to a Gravel Vac, is this what you mean?
No I mean you have your UGFilter setup with a powerhead running. 4-6mnths later you decide to do a gravel vac. You happen to have an extra canister filter. So instead of using the Gravel Vac and bucket/sink you just hook up the canister filter(inlet tube) to where the power head normal is connected.(Pick up tube of undergravel filter) Then turn the filter on.(I would only use the sponge filter insert cause the filter can fill fast with crap.) You can then watch from underneath the tank to watch all the crap fly away.

Hopefully that clears it up a bit.

I would have thought that connecting the gravel-cleaner to the filter and sucking the stuff UP out of the gravel would be a better method - mostly because anything that is stuck in the gravel will be equally stuck with a little more suction [obviously, if you suck hard enough, just about ANYTHING will change shape and pass through small holes].

Where do you lead the water to, back into the tank? This water will be RICH in nitrates and organic byproducts, which is what you want to get rid of... So you stil need to get it into a sink somehow... The actual DIRT particles aren't as bad as the water in this case.

I use a LONG hose on my gravel cleaner, which I just direct to the lawn outside (obviously not suitable if it's freezing outside, but rarely a problem here in england - use suitable floor level drain in such a case). It works really well.

--
Mats

Phathead6669 · Post by **Phathead6669** » 10 Jan 2006, 17:57

Well I guess if you wanted you could route the water to a bucket or sink. But at the same time the amount of time it takes to clean the bottom of the tank and the amount of water passing through is a short period. Once you have the bottom cleaned then stop the filter and throw in some new water. This I guess depends on how hardy your fish are. My fish are all quite large now and very hardy.(I had my mom take care of them for a mnth or so and put it this way it took me like 6mnths to get the tank back to normal.

)

Plus if you have enough plants or have plants and you throw in some AquaPlus and do you regular water change at the same time is there really much to worry about.

I personally have never tested my water for anything except PH(which is done rarley) and I haven't had any trouble. I would be testing if I lived off well water but we probably have one of the cleanest water systems around. The water is ROed for us before it comes to the tap.(Obviously it's not perfect RO water cause it get other treatment after and goes through copper/metal/plastic piping.) I do sometimes prep my water with AquaClear but thats only been the last couple months.

On a side note.
When I use my gravel vac though it connects directly to a tap and you can control pressure from there.