Fry - Zebra Otocinculus

Beersnob · Post by **Beersnob** » 29 Nov 2005, 17:51

Otocinculus Cocamala

Yes!

We have fry from the zebra otos. We were planning on taking them out of their species only tank and feed them green water until they were older, however our greenwater cultures both crashed. We're not sure why, but the question is there any reason that I should be concerned leaving these guys in the tank with the parents?

There is enough algae in the tank to keep them going. Just curious if any of the experts out there had any thoughts in the matter?

Thanks,

Scott

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 29 Nov 2005, 18:02

First, congratulations on the spawn. Looking forward to a spawning report soon

As per my usual style, I don't have any experience in this particular fish, but it doesn't stop me commenting

I'm pretty sure the parent's wouldn't harm the little ones, so if there's no other fish-eating species in the tank, it should be fine.

Obviously, as they grow, they will need sufficient food, and a big enough tank. But if they are only tiny, shouldn't be too much of a problem. Keep an eye on the nitrate levels as this will prevent them from growing if it goes too high.

--
Mats

Beersnob · Post by **Beersnob** » 29 Nov 2005, 18:17

MatsP,

I'm not familiar with the spawning report, can you enlighten me?

thanks,

Scott

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 29 Nov 2005, 18:25

Beersnob wrote:MatsP,

I'm not familiar with the spawning report, can you enlighten me?

thanks,

Scott

I meant that you should write a report on how you went about breeding these very pretty and nice fish. A lot of others would probably appreciate having the information.

Things like:
- Water conditions - What were the conditions to make when they bred. Including what you done for water movement, pH, hardness/conductivity, temperature.
- Trigger stuff - water temp changes, hardness changes, etc.
- Conditioning - did you feed them anything special to make them breed?
- Sexing - how you tell a male from female...
- Group size - how many do you think you need..
- Furniture - anything in the tank you think others would need to breed the fish.

Pictures is also nice.

The more details the better...

If you write a nice report, I'm sure Jools will put it up in the Shane's world. Just don't set a title of "Zebra Oto breeding", as that will put it at the bottom of the list of articles

If it's really nice, I'm sure TFH or Practical fish-keeping will have a look at it first.

--
Mats

bronzefry · Post by **bronzefry** » 30 Nov 2005, 22:04

Congrats on the spawn!!! How did you set up your greenwater culture?

jerms5 · Post by **jerms5** » 01 Dec 2005, 01:41

I would find that interesting as well!! [SPAWING REPORT][/quote]

Mike_Noren · Post by **Mike_Noren** » 01 Dec 2005, 09:11

Is this the first ever reported captive spawning of O. cocama?
Anyone know?

Beersnob · Post by **Beersnob** » 02 Dec 2005, 00:29

Well,

I don't have all of my data in front of me. But I will be writing something up for the breeder award points for the Greater Detroit Aquirium Society (GDAS) and I will forward it to you guys too.

We are not the first to breed them, but it tends to be a "surprise" from what we noted online.

We like the way they look and noted that they are rare in the hobby. We put them in a split 20 gallon tank (divider and all) and read that para otocinclulus seemed to get anxious to breed when the corydoras pygmaeus are breeding (Thanks for your help Mr. Earl-source of info). We need to see if we can replicate the event.

All we know is that when the zebra otos are i na species only tank, they do not seem interested in breeding...no matter what you do.

Hope this was a good glimpse.

Scott

Mike_Noren · Post by **Mike_Noren** » 02 Dec 2005, 11:48

That is in fact extremely interesting. I suspect it was not a coincidence that it was a Corydoras spawning which acted as the trigger for them to breed.

Mike_Noren · Post by **Mike_Noren** » 06 Dec 2005, 15:38

Just out of personal curiosity, do you have any links or pointers to info about prior breeding of zebra oto?
I can't find any.

Becki · Post by **Becki** » 06 Dec 2005, 23:20

Since my dear hubby (Beersnob) hasn't posted the basic info yet, you can find it at http://tinyurl.com/dyx43 I forgot to mention that the filter is actually for a 20gal (I think), and is set up for physical and biological filtering only- we took out the carbon so it wouldn't absorb any hormones from the cories/whiptails.

We have now 'kicked out' the whiptails to another breeder tank, and put the c. pygmaeus back in to see if they can get the otos going again. At 7 days, fry survival seems pretty good. I originally found 9 when I pulled the plants and did a 'head count', and generally see at least 5-6 each time I'm looking for them, though I counted 11 the other day. I'm fairly certain they were all otos, but we have a couple of pygmaeus fry in that tank (still) that sometimes think they're otos (they try 'sticking' to the glass).

The only reference I could find about zebra otos in particular was a reference here http://www.otocinclus.com/zebra.html
about possible breeding of them in Singapore. I have not been able to find anything else on Zebras, and I think for otos in general I haven't found more (or anything more helpful) than what he has listed in the breeding report section.

Beersnob · Post by **Beersnob** » 07 Dec 2005, 00:38

Sorry, I didn't post too much data. I wanted to make sure we could replicate the events and show that it was reproducible, not a "freak accident"

Stay tuned!

Scott

INXS · Post by **INXS** » 07 Dec 2005, 01:26

Congratulations!!

It's a pretty fish so hopefully there will be photos.

I'm not sure if greenwater would be of help to feed otos? Usually it's mostly filterfeeders that utilize green water.

If I remember correctly , the best way I got it going was with a Jobes fertilizer stick or any other fertilizer containg ammonia in water with a piece of a plant and intense light.

As far a feeding otos I know mine have always enjoyed the microfilm on the tankglass, decorations and plants. I recently read about someone taking the uplift tube and/or other parts of a filter which gets a buildup of microfilm bacteria on it and putting it in the tank, the otos suck it clean - I did try it and it worked well. Perhaps that may be of use with the babies.

Beersnob · Post by **Beersnob** » 08 Dec 2005, 03:12

I thoughtthat since green water is essentially algae, and that otos are algae eaters it seemed to make sense for the young.

I think the temperature up here in MI caused the end of the Green Water.

The temperature in the basement floor got cold and the greenwater crashed.

Thanks for your help and yes there are pictures! But Becki is afrraid I'll take another gig on our camera!

ThANKS,

sCOTT

INXS · Post by **INXS** » 08 Dec 2005, 03:40

Scott,
there are many kinds of algae and otos only eat a limited amount, mostly the microfilm.

You have: black beard (siamese algae eaters), green hair (rosy barbs, amano shrimp),green water (wood shrimp), staghorn (?) green spot (razorblade) to mention a few.

Introducing green water into your tank may not be the best idea. If you have plants and a good amount of light you may get a green water bloom and have a hard time getting rid of it.

Usually green water is cultured to feed daphnia which in turn is fed to fish.

Beersnob · Post by **Beersnob** » 31 Jan 2006, 03:50

I have some sad news. None of the fry survived. It appeared that the ones' we took out like we do with our cories and aspidoras died fairly quickly. I believe there was not enough "food" or algae for them to eat. I'm not sure what killed the ones that were with the parents unless the parents needed some extra "protein". I'll let you know if we have enough in future spawns...

But I guess we were successful at breeding these guys, but not at raising them. Any ideas are welcome.

Thanks,

Scott

Mindy · Post by **Mindy** » 31 Jan 2006, 08:17

Aw, sad news!

Like you say... maybe they'll do it again. I don't have much experience in breeding catfish, with the exception of the L46 and paleatus corys, but with the young from the L46, although my original intention was to leave them with their dad, he abandoned them so I put them in a floating breeder trap (in their parents' tank so no adapting to new water needed) and was able to make sure they were feeding, etc. Plus it enabled me to see what they didn't eat also and, of course, if anyone had died. Maybe you could try that next time, dropping an algae wafer in the breeder and watching what happens. I have a clump of java moss in the breeder trap and it also sits under the outflow of the spray bar so the water is constantly circulating. If I need the flow to reduce for feeding or whatever, I simply move it out of the outflow for a while.

Perhaps you could try this next time and then you could keep an eye on the little fry, and feed them as you feel is necessary.

But most of all... WELL DONE on managing to get such a rare and beautiful creature to spawn in the first place. You must be doing something right! I'm sure you'll get it figured out before long. Good luck!

Kana3 · Post by **Kana3** » 31 Jan 2006, 22:03

I didn't even get the chance to congratulate you - Very sad to hear of your loss, I love Oto's.

I'm very interested in Mats comment:

MatsP wrote: Keep an eye on the nitrate levels as this will prevent them from growing if it goes too high.

And if Mats, or anyone else, can expand on this?

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 01 Feb 2006, 09:45

It's a fairly well known secret amongs fish-breeders that Nitrate is one of the "slows down growth" factors.

From my understanding, it reduces the fish's ability to take up oxygen, which of course will affect the entire metabolic rate of the fish. So, if the fish can not metabolise the food eaten, it can't make use of the nutrients to grow...

Nitrite is even worse in this respect, as it's acting in a very similar way to Carbonmonoxide to humans - it ties to the red blood-cells and gets "stuck", effectively preventing the normal transfer of oxygen and carbondioxide to/from the cells in the body.

--
Mats

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 01 Feb 2006, 10:02

I'm sure loads of papers have been writen on the effects of nitrate. Now if anyone can point me in their direction......?

Good work with the otos. Better luck next time!

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 01 Feb 2006, 11:26

Google didn't find much on growth rates and nitrates. This article is about as good as it gets:
[Broken link removed].

Go to http://www.aquariumadvice.com/, then Aquarium articles and select freshwater article callled "Nitrogen cycle".

I'm sure that there is research by Biochemists (or something like that) to prove/disprove the idea of Nitrate being a growth inhibitor, but I couldn't find anything on the World Wide Wibble.

--
Mats

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 01 Feb 2006, 19:10

Link didn't work Mats.

FATAL ERROR................apparently!

Kana3 · Post by **Kana3** » 02 Feb 2006, 02:00

Thanks Mats. That's helping me make sense of some of my past stuff-ups, and confirming my own observations when raising fry. High mortality rate, and stunted growth.

I had the same problem with the link. And a search of the site just gave me too much to plow through...

And for no particular reason, here's one of my Oto's.