Hello Everyone,
I've been a frequent visitor to Planet Catfish for over a year but have just now joined. I live in Arizona and my wife and I are pl*co nuts! We are really excited about getting some new arrivals which include 6 L-260's. Now, we need a bit of advice.
Our water is well water and it is very hard. In fact, our total dissolved solids are around 320 ppm. The water is about 7.8 ph. Before the fish get here I am gradually trying to bring down both the PH and the hardness of the water in the 125 gallon tank. I have been changing about 20 gallons every three days with reverse osmosis water adjusted for a PH of about 7. I've been doing this for 3 weeks now for a total of about 7 total changes of 20 gallons each of the RO water. The PH has indeed stabilized at 7 but the hardness has not changed much at all (it's now 290 ppm...).
I am really open to any suggestions at this point as to how to lower the hardness to around 80 ppm. It seems no matter what we do the hardness stays constant! Any ideas would be really appreciated. And also it's great to finally be a member!
Dave
Hello All - New Member
You have 2 options in my mind. First your fish should be able to acclimate to your current water conditions.
My tap water is 8.3 ph, 24 dh (430 ppm) GH, 10 dh (180 ppm) KH and I've kept quite a few plecos over the last 15 years.
If your planning on spawning them then you may want to lower the GH (general hardness).
Your second option is to add enough R/O water to really make a difference which I would
tell you is about 75% of your tank volume. This will get you closer to where you want to be but
it's only a starting point and you will need to keep testing you water.
Changing 20 gallons at a time in your 125 G will have almost no affect on the GH as you already found out.
From a mathematical point of view, if you replaced 50% of your water (62.5 gallons) with R/O water (at one time)
then yout GH should be around 150 ppm. That's why I suggested about 75% to get you in the 75-80 ppm range.
Another water parameter that you need to consider is KH. IMO you want to keep the KH above 4 dh (75 ppm)
to avoid sudden drops in ph. I use Kent Marine Cichlid buffer but others use baking soda (sodium bicarbonate).
Here is a very good explanation of how water chemistry works, scroll down to post #8.
Good Luck and welcome to PlanetCatfish
My tap water is 8.3 ph, 24 dh (430 ppm) GH, 10 dh (180 ppm) KH and I've kept quite a few plecos over the last 15 years.
If your planning on spawning them then you may want to lower the GH (general hardness).
Your second option is to add enough R/O water to really make a difference which I would
tell you is about 75% of your tank volume. This will get you closer to where you want to be but
it's only a starting point and you will need to keep testing you water.
Changing 20 gallons at a time in your 125 G will have almost no affect on the GH as you already found out.
From a mathematical point of view, if you replaced 50% of your water (62.5 gallons) with R/O water (at one time)
then yout GH should be around 150 ppm. That's why I suggested about 75% to get you in the 75-80 ppm range.
Another water parameter that you need to consider is KH. IMO you want to keep the KH above 4 dh (75 ppm)
to avoid sudden drops in ph. I use Kent Marine Cichlid buffer but others use baking soda (sodium bicarbonate).
Here is a very good explanation of how water chemistry works, scroll down to post #8.
Good Luck and welcome to PlanetCatfish
Hello Jackster!
That is exactly what I was looking for! I suspected that the incremental addition of the RO was not giving me the proper dilution of the "tap" water in the tank but I was not aware of the calculations needed to do an acurate adjustment. Also I didn't want to do a mass change without having the proper calcs to back it up. Finally, trying to find a formula on a search engine was futile! So, THANK YOU for the welcome and the great link. As an aside, we also have an L-200 which my wife likes to call a pickle and I call the greenie. When she saw your icon, she about fell over!
Dave
That is exactly what I was looking for! I suspected that the incremental addition of the RO was not giving me the proper dilution of the "tap" water in the tank but I was not aware of the calculations needed to do an acurate adjustment. Also I didn't want to do a mass change without having the proper calcs to back it up. Finally, trying to find a formula on a search engine was futile! So, THANK YOU for the welcome and the great link. As an aside, we also have an L-200 which my wife likes to call a pickle and I call the greenie. When she saw your icon, she about fell over!
Dave
-
MatsP
- Posts: 21038
- Joined: 06 Oct 2004, 13:58
- My articles: 4
- My images: 28
- My cats species list: 117 (i:33, k:0)
- My aquaria list: 10 (i:8)
- My BLogs: 4 (i:0, p:97)
- Spotted: 187
- Location 1: North of Cambridge
- Location 2: England.
Welcome Dave,
I'd like to add a few comments:
When you're taking out 20 gallons to put another 20 gallons of RO water out, you'll take out a proportion of the RO water you added last time. This is of course absolutely necessary, and it's good if you're slowly making the fish acclimatise to the new softer water. But if you want to drop the hardness quickly, you're better off doing the change in one big hit, where you drain some 60-70% of the tank, and then fill it up with the RO water.
The way you've done it so far, you've taken 20g of 120g out, and replaced it with (essentially) 0ppm water. So in sequence you get:
Before: 320 ppm
1st change: 320*100/120 = 266ppm
2nd change: 266*100/120 = 221ppm
3rd change: 221*100/120 = 184ppm
4th change: 184*100/120 = 153ppm
5th change: 153*100/120 = 127ppm
6th change: 127*100/120 = 105ppm
7th change: 105*100/120 = 87ppm
You should, at this time be at 87 ppm. However, if you'd put 140 gallons of RO water straight into your 120g tank, you should have been at 0ppm with a big puddle on the floor
The fact that you're still at 290 ppm raises a few questions:
1. Are you sure the hardness is (nearly) 0ppm for your RO water?
2. Do you have any calciferous rocks/gravel in the tank? [Texas holy-rock for instance is holy because it's got lots of calcium carbonate in it - this is exactly what causes the hard water].
3. Do you have any filter additives?
4. Are you adding anything else to the water?
5. Is your hardness test correct?
If I calculate back from the 290 ppm you've got now (290 * 120 / 100), I get 348 which is the value you would have had before you changed water with 20g of 0 ppm water...
--
Mats
I'd like to add a few comments:
When you're taking out 20 gallons to put another 20 gallons of RO water out, you'll take out a proportion of the RO water you added last time. This is of course absolutely necessary, and it's good if you're slowly making the fish acclimatise to the new softer water. But if you want to drop the hardness quickly, you're better off doing the change in one big hit, where you drain some 60-70% of the tank, and then fill it up with the RO water.
The way you've done it so far, you've taken 20g of 120g out, and replaced it with (essentially) 0ppm water. So in sequence you get:
Before: 320 ppm
1st change: 320*100/120 = 266ppm
2nd change: 266*100/120 = 221ppm
3rd change: 221*100/120 = 184ppm
4th change: 184*100/120 = 153ppm
5th change: 153*100/120 = 127ppm
6th change: 127*100/120 = 105ppm
7th change: 105*100/120 = 87ppm
You should, at this time be at 87 ppm. However, if you'd put 140 gallons of RO water straight into your 120g tank, you should have been at 0ppm with a big puddle on the floor
The fact that you're still at 290 ppm raises a few questions:
1. Are you sure the hardness is (nearly) 0ppm for your RO water?
2. Do you have any calciferous rocks/gravel in the tank? [Texas holy-rock for instance is holy because it's got lots of calcium carbonate in it - this is exactly what causes the hard water].
3. Do you have any filter additives?
4. Are you adding anything else to the water?
5. Is your hardness test correct?
If I calculate back from the 290 ppm you've got now (290 * 120 / 100), I get 348 which is the value you would have had before you changed water with 20g of 0 ppm water...
--
Mats
I apologize for my extreme lateness in following up on this as I've had some family illness and thanks also Mats for your reply. Has anyone used the product RO Right by Kent and how would that compare to the Kent Marine C*****d buffer that Jackster mentions? I think the best way is possibly to change the same amount but more frequently until the desired effect is achieved. I have confirmed that the RO water is very soft that I'm adding and that my tests are close.
Thanks again!
Dave
Thanks again!
Dave
R/O Right by Kent Marine is indeed designed for adding to R/O water.
This is Kent Marine's description.
hydrogen carbonate salts and does not increase GH (Na, Mg, Ca, K). GH consists of
positively charged ions (cations) and KH is a measurement of the negatively charged
carbonate ions (CO3-2) also called anions. African Cichlid Buffer is really a misleading
name for the product because it's primarily KH increaser and can be used in any
situation where one wants to increase carbonate hardness (KH) only.
This is Kent Marine's description.
The reason I use African Cichlid Buffer is because it only contains carbonate andDescription:
Specially formulated mixture of dissolvable solids (also called general hardness or GH)
which includes major salts of sodium, magnesium, calcium, and potassium together
with all necessary minor and trace minerals, together with a small amount of carbonate
alkalinity (KH) to reproduce artificial river water (most aquarium fish are river fish).
Provides natural water chemistry for the conversion of reverse osmosis, distilled or
deionized water for fresh water fish and plants. Provides a balanced electrolyte system.
Useful for all fresh water fish, including Discus.
hydrogen carbonate salts and does not increase GH (Na, Mg, Ca, K). GH consists of
positively charged ions (cations) and KH is a measurement of the negatively charged
carbonate ions (CO3-2) also called anions. African Cichlid Buffer is really a misleading
name for the product because it's primarily KH increaser and can be used in any
situation where one wants to increase carbonate hardness (KH) only.
-
Barbie
- Expert
- Posts: 2964
- Joined: 03 Jan 2003, 23:48
- I've donated: $360.00!
- My articles: 1
- My images: 15
- My catfish: 2
- My cats species list: 58 (i:2, k:0)
- Spotted: 8
- Location 1: Spokane, WA
- Location 2: USA
While I think it's great that you are attempting to recreate the conditions your fish are collected in, L260 are going to have no problem whatsoever adapting to your tap water and would spawn with just rainy season variations from that tap. IME, stability is FAR more important with these fish than just how soft you get their water. Your tap water with all it's hardness in tact, would be very stable.
I've always had trouble understanding why people would make RO and then ADD the stuff they just stripped out of the water back in with buffers. If you know you need to add back in buffering capacity, add in your tap water. It's cheaper, will save you money on your water bill and probably make you more apt to change more water. Unless you know there's something truly detrimental in your tap water (and in the US there rarely is) your fish honestly won't know the difference and might get more trace elements that are actually good for them. The trend is for people to work hard at exactly matching the conditions they think the fish would thrive in, but then they do less water changes because it's more of a pain in the keester. This actually works against the fish in the end.
The tank tds being higher than expected is probably mostly due to food, fish waste, any dissolved organics from driftwood or plant matter. Not to worry that your levels aren't exactly matching the formulas. That's pretty normal ;).
Barbie
I've always had trouble understanding why people would make RO and then ADD the stuff they just stripped out of the water back in with buffers. If you know you need to add back in buffering capacity, add in your tap water. It's cheaper, will save you money on your water bill and probably make you more apt to change more water. Unless you know there's something truly detrimental in your tap water (and in the US there rarely is) your fish honestly won't know the difference and might get more trace elements that are actually good for them. The trend is for people to work hard at exactly matching the conditions they think the fish would thrive in, but then they do less water changes because it's more of a pain in the keester. This actually works against the fish in the end.
The tank tds being higher than expected is probably mostly due to food, fish waste, any dissolved organics from driftwood or plant matter. Not to worry that your levels aren't exactly matching the formulas. That's pretty normal ;).
Barbie
-
bronzefry
- Posts: 2198
- Joined: 31 Aug 2004, 16:01
- I've donated: $100.00!
- My articles: 6
- My images: 13
- My cats species list: 17 (i:0, k:0)
- My aquaria list: 7 (i:7)
- Spotted: 6
- Location 1: Sharon, Massachusetts, US
Barbie gave me wonderful advice on RO water and it's worked for me. I add a little tap water to the RO water until I get just the balance required. With the unhealthful water coming out of my tap, it doesn't take much to strike a balance. The chemistries stay balanced throughout the week. When I was using the chemicals, the levels were all over the place. I also save money since I don't need to purchase the chemicals.
Amanda
Amanda
Yes that is a good idea to use the tap water. All I will have to do is find the right mix! Thanks everyone for your help again.
As an aside, has anyone here had any luck ordering fish via overnight delivery? I did that and so far I've had very bad luck with survivals. I'm not sure if it's the actual process of packing and the shipping stress or if it's the fact that the stock aren't healthy to begin with. Being in Arizona here I don't have many outlets for getting cool pl*cos. Would love to find a shop in Vegas that had some! After all it's a better bet to gamble on fish than on slot machines......
As an aside, has anyone here had any luck ordering fish via overnight delivery? I did that and so far I've had very bad luck with survivals. I'm not sure if it's the actual process of packing and the shipping stress or if it's the fact that the stock aren't healthy to begin with. Being in Arizona here I don't have many outlets for getting cool pl*cos. Would love to find a shop in Vegas that had some! After all it's a better bet to gamble on fish than on slot machines......