Urgently seeking help in diagnosis

[wingor]

Two of my royal plecos have stopped eating for a week, remain inactive, have bulging stomach and defaecate white stringy mucoid feces. What is the problem here? Are they infected with bacteria or infested with internal parasites? What is the best treatment available? Is dropsy incurable among plecos as alleged by some people?

As requested, more info. has been added which I hope would clarify things up a bit for you guys:

1. Water parameters
a) Temerature range: 29C.to 32C.
b) pH:
c) GH:
d) KH:
e)Ammonia: 4ppm Nitrate: 30ppm Nitrite: Unknown
f) Water change frequency: Once a week. 20%-50% water change with JBL dechloriner added.

2. Tank set up
a) Size: 39 inches, 200L. tank
b) Substrate: Bare bottom
c) Filtration: One tank top filter powered by 2400L./Hr. pump head is filled with cotton pads and carbon to serve as mechanical & chemical filter plus one fluidized bed filter to cultivate beneficial bacteria.

d) Furnishings: 3 pieces of driftwood plus one clay made hideout for fishes
e) Other tank mates: 1 10 inches long Australian arowana, 2 red parrots and 2 super red rubbies
f) How long has it been set-up: 1 and a half month
g) When was the last new fish added: 12 Days ago
h) Foods used and frequency: JBL Novo Plecochips & Tropical VegeTabin B to plecos. Tetra Bits complete food to blood red parrots & super red rubies. Live mealworms and crickets to Arowana. They are all fed twice per day.

3. Symptoms / Problem description: Bloated stomaches, lethargic, defaecating white mucoid stringy feces, losing appetite

4. Action taken: 50% water change with medication added
5. Medications used: 1 dose of Number 9 Anti-internal bacteria, 1 dose of JBL Spirohexol pesticide, 1 dose of Huey Hung H-5 dewormer (For thread worms). 2-3 days apart between each dose.

[MatsP]

As far as I know, droopsy is incurable in all fish. But I could be wrong. Your fish probably hasn't got droopsy anyways...

It's likely that it's an internal parasite or some other internal illness. You may be able to cure it with:
1. Clean water - Change water, about 25% every day or every other day.
2. Add garlic extract to the food.

You may want to get some internal parasite medecine too, there's some specially formulated for sensitive fish that I've heard of people using.

Sorry if I haven't been of much help...


--
Mats

[Owch]

Wormer + for discus works a treat, I just used it on my discus and within 30 min there were horrible 'things' protruding from all my fishes bottoms, plecs included. Within an hour everything in the tanks seemed more alert and active.

You can get it from HERE or HERE

What they didnt tell me when I got some was ,that it's best to retreat after 4 days, so make sure you get enough.

Its made from all natural ingredients as well

[Barbie]

Before guesstimating about all the varied things it might be caused by, how about we get all of the information requested in the sticky at the top of this forum. That allows us to make informed estimates on what your problem might be, without sending you off to medicate for things that aren't causing the problem. That's why the sticky says to read it first ;).

Barbie

[Jackster]

Clout kills almost anything that could be affecting your fish.
Spironucleus, Hexamita, or Cryptobia are the most likely organisms.

Read this post

[Barbie]

Clout also kills your FISH if they are already weakened or stressed enough to succumb to many types of parasites and problems, IME.

Please, again, more information so we can give you an accurate assessment of the problem without shotgunning medications at it.

Barbie

[wingor]

My royal pl*co has stopped eating for a week, remains inactive, has a bulging stomach and defaecates white stringy mucoid feces. What is the problem here? Is it infected with bacteria or infested with internal parasites? What is the best treatment available? Is dropsy incurable among pl*cos as alleged by some people?

More information is provided below and I hope this would clarify things up a bit.

1. Water parameters
a) Temerature range: 29C.to 32C.
b) pH:
c) GH:
d) KH:
e)Ammonia: 4ppm Nitrate: 30ppm Nitrite: Unknown
f) Water change frequency: Once a week. 20%-50% water change with JBL dechloriner added directly to tap water.

2. Tank set up
a) Size: 39 inches, 200L. tank
b) Substrate: Bare bottom
c) Filtration: One tank top filter powered by 2400L./Hr. pump head is filled with cotton pads and carbon to serve as mechanical & chemical filter plus one fluidized bed filter to cultivate beneficial bacteria.

d) Furnishings: 3 pieces of driftwood plus one clay made hideout for fishes
e) Other tank mates: 1 10 inches long Australian arowana, 2 red parrots and 2 super red rubbies
f) How long has it been set-up: 1 and a half month
g) When was the last new fish added: 12 Days ago
h) Foods used and frequency: JBL Novo Plecochips & Tropical VegeTabin B to plecos. Tetra Bits complete food to blood red parrots & super red rubies. Live mealworms and crickets to Arowana. They are all fed twice per day.

3. Symptoms / Problem description: Bloated stomache, lethargic, defaecating white mucoid stringy feces, losing appetite

4. Action taken: 50% water change with medication added

5. Medications used: 1 dose of Number 9 Anti-internal bacteria, 1 dose of JBL Spirohexol pesticide, 1 dose of Huey Hung H-5 dewormer (For thread worms). 2-3 days apart between each dose.

[Barbie]

IMO there's no need to add medication to this tank. 4ppm of ammonia is enough to kill even healthy fish. Stop feeding and continue doing daily 50% water changes until you can get your levels under control. You might look into a product like biospira or seed bacteria from an established tank. The meds you are adding are doing nothing more than impeding the cycling process and causing the fish great distress. Not to mention, you'll be needing to upgrade that tank in short order. It's already overstocked, let alone when the fish grow and get more aggressive. The odds are good your nitrite levels are also elevated. Have you cleaned your filter thoroughly or something? That's a very high ammonia reading for as long as the tank has been set up. Feeding twice a day is literally killing them with kindness at this point.

Barbie

[wingor]

IMO there's no need to add medication to this tank. 4ppm of ammonia is enough to kill even healthy fish. Stop feeding and continue doing daily 50% water changes until you can get your levels under control. You might look into a product like biospira or seed bacteria from an established tank. The meds you are adding are doing nothing more than impeding the cycling process and causing the fish great distress. Not to mention, you'll be needing to upgrade that tank in short order. It's already overstocked, let alone when the fish grow and get more aggressive. The odds are good your nitrite levels are also elevated. Have you cleaned your filter thoroughly or something? That's a very high ammonia reading for as long as the tank has been set up. Feeding twice a day is literally killing them with kindness at this point.

Barbie

Somehow the arowana, red parrots and red rubbies don't seem to be affected by the ammonia at all.

[MatsP]

Somehow the arowana, red parrots and red rubbies don't seem to be affected by the ammonia at all.

I don't think that's true, but it may be that they are not showing it quite as much. Different fish are more or less sensitive to different things.

In either case, Barbie is right, 4ppm Ammonia is WAY higher than it should ever be in a healthy tank. Aside from doing 50% daily water changes, I'd make sure that there isn't any big lumps of food or anything else (dead fish, shrimps/prawns) laying about in the tank that would cuase polution. I wouldn't be surprised if your nitrite level is also high [not that this would change anything, but it certainly adds to the stress of the fish].

Best of luck with the recovery.

--
Mats

[wingor]

Somehow the arowana, red parrots and red rubbies don't seem to be affected by the ammonia at all.

I don't think that's true, but it may be that they are not showing it quite as much. Different fish are more or less sensitive to different things.

In either case, Barbie is right, 4ppm Ammonia is WAY higher than it should ever be in a healthy tank. Aside from doing 50% daily water changes, I'd make sure that there isn't any big lumps of food or anything else (dead fish, shrimps/prawns) laying about in the tank that would cuase polution. I wouldn't be surprised if your nitrite level is also high [not that this would change anything, but it certainly adds to the stress of the fish].

Best of luck with the recovery.

--
Mats

I know that the water parameters are important. Yet my first priority is to save the pl*cos first. I am going to move them to another tank and have to find out in a very short time whether if they have been sickened by bacteria or parasites so that I could cure them before time has run out. Anybody out there knows how to cure them?

[MatsP]

You do realize that the fish may not be sick at all, just reacting to the environment of ammonia that you've been keeping it in, right?

--
Mats

[wingor]

You do realize that the fish may not be sick at all, just reacting to the environment of ammonia that you've been keeping it in, right?

--
Mats

I think the immune system of my plecos has been weakened by the water quality resulting in multiplication of bacteria or parasites in the bodies which have made them sick. I have to first find out what type of parasites or bacteria are infesting them before I could treat them effectively. Is there any other alternative?

[Jackster]

If fish have been exposed to a toxic level of ammonia they may never recover.
Poor water quality, improper feeding, and many other stress factors cause bloat.
Simply removing ammonia will not eliminate the internal overgrowth of these flagellates
(unicellular parasites with one or more "filaments" often associated with whitish and stringy feces).
Obviously the water chemistry needs to be fixed but if you read this bloat cure carefully
you can see that it is a week long treatment with no feeding and an 80% water change on day 4.
Personally I do not use a hospital tank. I treat the entire affected aquarium and just follow the
same steps. I have treated tanks with Synodontis multipunctatus, Botias, and various Loricariidae
and never lost a single fish. Can Clout kill fish? Yes it can, but if bloat is not treated quickly
and aggressively the end result will be death anyway besides the risk of contamination to other
aquariums. If one is moving fish around between tanks then all tanks need treatment IMO.

I've had 2 separate bloat contaminations and Clout completely eliminated them.
Some who fear Clout do prefer to use Metronidazole.
To remove ammonia use Amquel, Prime, or both products used together works the best.
Remember ammonia is more toxic at higher temps and higher PH. I would also warn against
the use of salt as it can be an additional stress factor making the current situation even worse.

[racoll]

Keep them in clean, pollution free water for at least two weeks.

This will give you enough time to work out if they are sick or not.

As Mats and Barbie have pointed out, they may not be seriously ill at all, and they will probably recover very quicky in CLEAN water.

If they are still showing symptoms after two weeks in clean water, then start worring about disease treatments.

[MatsP]

Well, I'm in agreement that the fish probably has something wrong internally, but I'm also thinking that fixing the water quality will most likely make your fish well as well, unless it's already too late, in which case any medication will probably not help much either.

I think Barbie will agree that the best treatment for any unwell fish is to keep it in nice clean water (i.e. no ammonia, no nitrite, low nitrate and well oxygenaated), unless you know for sure exactly what you're fixing and which medication you should use for it.

There's plenty of medications out there, most of which do just as much harm when used, as they fix.

--
Mats

[Jackster]

I guess the wait and see approach bothers me. Ammonia is the number one killer of aquarium fish.
While waiting for water quality to improve, the fish may die from bloat if they are not already
poisoned by ammonia.While we are all debating the subject the ammonia level is going critical.
A 50% water change and some type of ammonia remover (Amquel or Prime) will solve that
problem quickly.

The fish in question is in a tank which has not been completely cycled and "so-called" bacteria
in a bottle products have been proven not to work and will cause more harm than good. The only
method that I use is a direct "seeding" (as Barbie mentioned) of gravel from a well established aquarium.
This method can also introduce parasites. That's why I recommend treating any tanks that have
been exposed to bloat with Clout.

At the point that a fish becomes ill even a sudden change in water quality for the better
(from a large water change) can be an added shock or stress factor so there is no easy answer
to the issue that wingor's aquarium is facing. Using Clout may indeed kill the 2 royals or further disrupt
the biological activity of the tank but the tank is not fully cycled anyway. Whatever happens
(hopefully everything will survive) the tank needs to cycle and be decontaminated.
The end result may be starting over.

[Barbie]

These are not Malawian fish. Bloat will be a symptom, not a name for the actual disease. Usually the swelling of the abdomen is caused by failure of internal organs, causing retention of fluids. While metronidazole MIGHT help in that case, the meds themselves aren't as effective without higher temperatures and the ability to get the fish to EAT it. If they're as sick as it sounds, the higher temperature itself is just going to be one more stress factor. This is one of those cases where good husbandry would have prevented this from happening, but since it HAS, it can be argued for days whether or not dumping stuff into the tank as a stopgap measure is going to do anything but cause more losses.

If you already HAVE another established tank, you should rinse the filter media from it in the tank you're trying to recycle, IMO. While the fish might not be stressing as much, it's definitely not a healthy environment for them.

Barbie

[wingor]

Is JBL Spirohexol containing 2-Amino-5-nitrothiazol effective in combating bloat and internal parasites? What types of chemical does Clout carry?

[Owch]

Dont use any medication until your water perameters are spot on. Daily water changes and reduced feeding until your filter is working then, if your fish is still sick, look for a treatment.

No medication, lots of water changes.

[Jackster]

If they're as sick as it sounds, the higher temperature itself is just going to be one more stress factor.

Barbie

You need to read my posts more carefully. No one said anything about raising temperature.
I said that ammonia is more toxic at higher temps and higher PH. From that statement
I meant not to raise the temp and if anything lower it a little.

Bloat is a general term for internal infections from Spironucleus, Hexamita, or Cryptobia.
All fish can be affected by these flagellates or unicellular parasites and they won't go away
by changing water.

I will also say that this is becoming one of those posts were a moderator is a little to intense about an absolute right or wrong answer. There is no absolutely correct response in this situation.

Clout ingredients:
4-[p-(dimethylamino)-)0-phenylbenzylidene)-2,5-cyclohexadien-1-xylidene dimethylammonium chloride, dimethyl (2,2,2-trichloro-1-hydroxy-ethel) phosphonate, 1,2 dimethyl-5-nitrolmidazole

[Barbie]

I actually did read your posts. I'm sorry if my opinion differs with yours. Metronidazole is mainly ineffective at lower temperatures, as it was designed for use in humans, hence, my comment about temperature. There was a large volume of advice in this thread before there was sufficient information about the CAUSE of the problem, and I'm attempting to stem the tide of "quick, dump this in your tank, it cures everything!".

I say again. Bloat is a SYMPTOM, usually of dropsy or some other bacterial problem, involving internal organs and their failure. Rarely is it the cause of the problem. Treating it with clout, or any other potentially toxic medication can be compounding the problem. We now know the cause of the problem. Good clean water is going to go a long way to allowing the fish to heal itself. Without knowing exactly what the problem is, the shotgun approach to medicating is just as dangerous as patience, IMO.

I'm not attempting to argue with you jackster, my opinion and treatment methods differ, obviously, from yours. I think that both sides of the coin need to be carefully observed in this situation, and as someone with extensive experience in dealing with stressed and recently shipped fish on a large scale, it's something I feel comfortable having an opinion on. That doesn't mean I'm saying you're wrong, it means I'm saying that's not how I personally would handle the situation. I'm not the only one in this thread recommending holding off on medicating ;).

Barbie

[bronzefry]

d) Furnishings: 3 pieces of driftwood plus one clay made hideout for fishes

Have you tried removing the clay hideout? I noticed the same symptoms in a Chaetostoma sp.who was munching on a clay cave....his faeces looked like what you're describing. A day or so after I removed the clay cave, he was back to normal. Just a thought.
Amanda

[Jackster]

Here is a true story that happened about 8 months ago.

My friend Todd and I decided to fly in some Ikola frontosa babies. They were $25 each
and 3/4" long (plus shipping). I believe we also received some Juli's and a few groups of
Peacocks. My friend Todd only wanted one of the frontosa so he picked out the largest
"bull" because he wanted a male. The rest of the fish seemed fine at first but after several
days 2 of my plecos died that were in the tank with the baby frontosa. After careful examination,
I could see that these fry were not eating but rather spitting out food instead. I knew
what was wrong but called a "real expert" to get a second opinion. As soon as I started
to tell him about my fish he screamed "CLOUT 3 full strenght treatments immediately!".

He warned me about how contagious this type of thing could be and he was correct.
Within one weeks time 3 of my tanks were contaminated. In the mean time, I called Todd
and explained the situation and since he only had taken one fish he said "No worries,
I'll just wait and see what happens". I must also mention that Todd does not believe in
using any kind of chemicals or water treatments as he does not even use dechlorinator.
Well a few more days passed by and I got a frantic call from Todd "One of my plecos died
and also a male C. afra......Looks like the fish in 3 of my tanks are not eating just spitting out food".
Yes these fish had white feces and yes this disease does affect other types of fish besides Africans.

Well to make a long story shorter, we treated all 6 tanks with clout (3 times each)
and saved all the remaining fish.

The wait and see theory cost Todd about a dozen of his own C. frontosa (Burundi) fry.
Todd has been an owner/operator of 3 separate small pet stores and I learned about
tropical fish from him. I've been breeding African cichlids since I was 28 and I will be 43
in a few days. When I started out with my first aquarium I bought my fish from Todd
and now Todd buys fish from me and no longer questions my advice. I also fly in fish
(not just African cichlids) about 4 times a year to my home from all over the USA so I feel
quite comfortable in giving out advice that will work. Most of my advice is based on my own
personal experience in combination with recommendations I have gathered from
large fish wholesalers, breeders, and importers that I buy fish from and very little has
come from forums. The Clout links I refer to from other forums are just so others can have quick
detailed instructions but are not actually my original source of information just for what it's worth.

[dannyboyau]

could i ask what the active ingrediants are in clout, being in australia i cant get clout but there is probably a similar product on the market

Thank you

[Jackster]

could i ask what the active ingrediants are in clout, being in australia i cant get clout but there is probably a similar product on the market

Thank you

Clout ingredients:
4-[p-(dimethylamino)-)0-phenylbenzylidene)-2,5-cyclohexadien-1-xylidene dimethylammonium chloride,
dimethyl (2,2,2-trichloro-1-hydroxy-ethel) phosphonate, 1,2 dimethyl-5-nitrolmidazole

[dannyboyau]

Thank you very much for the quick reply Jackster

Now comes the fun bit trying to find the same type of product in the australian market, guess i will be visiting a few fish shops ths weekend.

Always enjoy checking out the fish and plants maybe i will find something interesting

Thanks again