L333 Spawn.

[kkorotev]

After about a month of musical caves with 2 males, my gravid L333 female finally picked her mate this week. Unfortunately, this is the LAST week I would have wanted her to pick as workmen were to come in and replace a floor and cabinet within feet of the tank. Briefly, I even considered taking the tank down for fear of a errant hammer clipping a corner...or worse.

Apparently, there is some stimulating effect to the sawing, whacking and pounding. There is a male and an egg ball in the cave today.

I believe I'm shaking a little.

******
There's no secret to the conditions or feeding habits I've used. I got the fish this last Spring as nearly or already full grown wild adults. I've treated them like zebras, inspectors, Queen Arabesque or any other Hypancistrus.

I will go on record once again though as suggesting that if you have a stubborn Hypancistrus and have been, as a rule, keeping their water changed regularly...STOPPING can be a trigger. I have coaxed 5 Hypancistrus species now with this
"DRY SEASON". There is plenty of good information on this site about how and why this works...and I am a firm believer, at least for this species.

Kevin Korotev
Milwaukee, WI
USA

[j4782]

Congratulations! Good luck with hatching!

[stina]

Nice one Kev!
Can you post pictures of your L333 group?
I would like to see ull size L333...

BTW what live food U are using... IF you are using live food?

TIA,
Vedran

[Owch]

Congratulations.

Im just starting out with a group of L333's myself. What size are your fully grown L333's? Could you also tell me your tank perameters.

Thanks

Tom

[Janne]

Congratulation Kevin,

There are two ways of "dry season" that trigger fishes to spawn, one is better then the other.
Fishes are sensitive to nitrate that acts as a salt and that is why many fishes spawn after a big water change if the level have been a little high for a while, these method gives normally smaller batches...I dont mean that you have misstreated your fishes because the level dont need to be so high, let say they have been kept in 15-20 ppm nitrate for a while and after a water change the level drops to 5-10 ppm and then kept at that level.

The second is to lower the conductivity and control the level of nitrate so it always are very low which will give bigger batches, this method is the best but not all have a RO unit or other options to softening the water.

In both cases they will keep on regulary to spawn as long the water are kept in good qaulity, and of course all depends on how hard the water are from beginning...not every one can use the "nitrate" method if their water are to hard from the tap.

Janne

[kkorotev]

Janne,
I've read your response a few times now and am not sure I understand what you're saying. In times like these I wish I'd spent more time in Science class at school.

As I launch on this longest ever post of my life, know that I do not measure nitrates and can not speak to their influence on fish behavior. My method of fish keeping is much more...shall I say...empathetic? It is my ignorance or unwillingness to fully embrace the science, certainly, and I'd love to hear your reactions if you can possibly derive some from this wandering piece of opinion.

Your first method of the "dry" season, followed by a "wet" season is pretty clear, I guess. It is a good explanation of why...let's say CORYDORAS, respond to a cold water flushing. The stubborn CORYDORAS I've worked with seem to need this "wet" season (cold water flush) for a few consecutive days.
If I've understood what you mean by this first method, and my CORYDORAS comparison is accurate, I need to say that I have never had this work with any suckermouth species. They are, by nature I believe, very slow responders to ANY stimulus.
Know though that I have never continued this "flushing" method for more than 4 or 5 days on any suckermouth and by "never had this work", I mean I have never had a spawn happen IN CONJUNCTION (within a week or two) of the "wet" season's completion. I have never seen an increase in spawning behavior in the fish after applying this technique either, more the opposite.

I'm not sure I understand your second technique at all as a "wet" and "dry" season. Maybe that wasn't your intention. In fact, as I read it over, I sense it to be a pretty good description of what I do. I have an r/o unit and my water is mixed with tap to a recipe of 100ppm of dissolved solids (less with some fish like the A. dolichopterus, but never more).
This is the "fresh" water I change my tanks with on a regular, but not excessively frequent basis (which, I guess is when the nitrates build up?). If a suckermouth femaleâ??s egg cycle is...let's say 45 to 60 days, and I change water as described, my egg production is VERY consistent with the regular spawners. I make NO EFFORT to change my pattern once a species begins to spawn...and they do, often like clockwork...and with approximately the same yield.
So....if I understand your second method is one of, simply; reasonable maintenance with moderate water...then all anyone needs to do is increase their water changing frequency with (possibly) even softer water and they'll get more eggs?

If I've been ridiculous in my interpretation of your response, it is not intended. I have not neglected to appreciate the influence nitrates have in the entire process...but I simply, do not have the mental ability to factor them in. My rational is much simpler: Fresh water is good, Old water is bad.


Here's my highy subjective approach to spawning suckermouths:

A) We all have individual capacity for recognizing the sex and maturty of our fish, but, we are, unfortunately, often wrong. No â??triggerâ?

[Janne]

My response was just about these and generally...

I will go on record once again though as suggesting that if you have a stubborn Hypancistrus and have been, as a rule, keeping their water changed regularly...STOPPING can be a trigger

Nitrate levels will build up in the tank and the fishes react when there are made water changes and the nitrate level decrease, not everyone knows that you meant for a short period

Even suckermoth species react if they have been kept in too high level of nitrate for a longer period if all the other necessarys are fullfilled, of course it also depends on what kind of water you use or have in the tap...not all have a RO unit but some of them breed anyway even in quite hard water.

reasonable maintenance with moderate water...then all anyone needs to do is increase their water changing frequency with (possibly) even softer water and they'll get more eggs?

If loricariid's are kept for a longer period in a higher level of nitrate they will produce less eggs that day they spawn, if always kept in low levels they will produce more eggs if compairing the same female.

Fresh water is good, Old water is bad.

Could not have said that better

In the rivers are nitrate almost not detectable and have no affect at all on the fishes, we maybe think that conductivity are heavily changed from dry season to wet season but in fact it's small changes. Depending where the river have the origin the conductivity drop a little when the rain starts or in a few cases increase if the river runs thrue a mineral rich area, the changes are often not more then maybe 10-20 µS with some exceptions and the rivers have a very low conductivity as normal...so how can the fish notice the changes when the changes are so small?
In some rivers the changes in temperature are significant and others just slightly, how much the pH change depends on the river too and I dont know how that affect fishes willingness to breed but some benefits of a lower pH. When the rivers start to raises under the rain period and much water are in movement the oxygen level increase...more if the water are pure as it is when it's raining and if the temp decrease it can dissolve even more oxygen.

And with these information they would be easy to spawn all the year around?...no, they are in fact much easier to breed under their normal breeding season they are used too what ever we do with the water, that doesn't means they are impossible to breed outside the season but it means it's much easier to make the attempt under their normal breeding period.

Janne

[Shane]

In the rivers are nitrate almost not detectable and have no affect at all on the fishes, we maybe think that conductivity are heavily changed from dry season to wet season but in fact it's small changes. Depending where the river have the origin the conductivity drop a little when the rain starts or in a few cases increase if the river runs thrue a mineral rich area, the changes are often not more then maybe 10-20 µS with some exceptions and the rivers have a very low conductivity as normal...so how can the fish notice the changes when the changes are so small?

Actually Janne, changes in nitrates and conductivity can be very substantial. In the dry season many fishes are trapped in charcos (pools), oxbows that become disconnected from the main river, and canos that receive no water at all since their only water source is the surrounding plains or jungle because they are not connected to any permanent (i.e. mountain) water source. Many "rivers" simply become a long series of disconnected pools. The dry season is hot (no clouds to block the sun) and the remaining waters evaporate very quickly. A charco 20 feet across and a foot deep may be completely gone after 2-3 sunny days. The constant shrinking due to evaporation causes conductivity and nitrates to rise. I have seen charcos one meter square and two inches deep holding a 1,000 Corydoras. One can only imagine the nitrate levels.
I took the following readings in Venezuela. The Rio Tinaco is a proper river that receives some water all year round from the Andes although it may be a trickle in the high dry season. The Santo Domingo is a cano. These are dry season readings. The two rivers are 10 miles apart.

Tinaco: pH 7.0 conductivity 1,100 mu, Temp 84F
Santa Domingo: pH 7.5 con 3,000 mu, Temp 80F

It is important to note that these are "extreme" readings and the fish are only exposed to water this hot and hard for a month or six weeks out of the entire year. The cano was cooler because the Tinaco "rages" in the wet season and has washed away all trees within 10 meters of its banks. Since a cano has a slow flow rate it does not wash away trees and has good shade even in the high dry season.

The main changes with the onset of the wet season are:
- Water temperature cools - due to rain, mountain runoff and the clouds that block out the tropical sun.
- Increased O2 levels - due to rain hitting the water's surface, increased water flow from sources, and an expanding surface area as the waters rise.
- Increased food availability - due to both the water's expansion and the opening of new area to exploit and bugs, fruits, seeds, etc being washed into the river. Also, for predatory spp, there is more food because everyone else is having babies you can eat. A change in the food types available could also play a role for some fishes.
- pH changes - These can go up or down. Rain has a pH of about 7.0, so a river with a pH of 5.0 may have its pH rise a bit while a river like the Santo Domingo above will see a slight pH drop.
- Conductivity (hardness) changes - Since rainwater has basically no hardness, it dilutes the salts that have become concentrated over the dry season. The Santo Domingo's condutivity, since it is a cano, may drop from 3,000 mu to almost undetectable in the high wet season since its only feeder source is rain and run off from the surrounding plains.
- Spawning sites - instead of just the biggest toughest male having a nice cave, other males can now spread out and look for their own "nests." In some cases, the preferred spawning site may not be available at all. Hypostomus holes are used by iguanas for mating in the dry season (or iguana holes are used by Hypostomus? I am not sure who the real builder is). When the water rises again they are available for the plecos to use. Kind of a pleco/iguana timeshare.

My personal belief is that different fishes are affected by one or more of these signs. Most Ancistrus, for example, only need a stable food source and appropriate cave and they will spawn like clockwork. Some cory spp. only need a temperature change to start spawning. I have spawned Rineloricaria by doing nothing more than changing the aquarium water's conductivity. The hopeful fish breeder just needs to figure out what combination of the above buttons need to be pushed... and in what order.
I had never given a thought to nitrates specifically, but I see Janne's point and agree that this could be a possible trigger. Luckily, a good large volume water change with cool soft water (RO, snow, rain, etc) fulfills many of the above requirements all at once.
-Shane

[Griparn]

Thanks for intresting posts guys!

[Telnes]

Thanks for intresting posts guys!

I have to say the same, Thanks for all the good info !!!

[Janne]

I took the following readings in Venezuela. The Rio Tinaco is a proper river that receives some water all year round from the Andes although it may be a trickle in the high dry season. The Santo Domingo is a cano. These are dry season readings. The two rivers are 10 miles apart.

Tinaco: pH 7.0 conductivity 1,100 mu, Temp 84F
Santa Domingo: pH 7.5 con 3,000 mu, Temp 80F

This is what makes south america so interesting, there are so many different "climate zones and habitats"...different rivers have their own. Some rivers create lots of pools and oxbows under the dry season and are usual the ones that runs in the lowland when others just get smaller but still have a considerable amount of waterflow.
If we take the main rivers such Rio Xingu or Rio Tocantins there both have a very low conductivity even under the dry season and I maybe should say a normal dry season and not what is happening today, the difference is small in conductivity between dry and wet season.
So depending on the origin of the species can vary a lot in changes there some just have small changes in temp. and conductivity there others have very big...and of course the same in pH.

Nitrate acts as a salt and block (decrease) the oxygen transport in the blood which make fishes think it's a bad time to breed and in fry it prevent the developing and can end up with deformations when not enough oxygen reach all the cells...in adults that have long filaments and loose it we can see deformations too when it grows back under the same circumstances.
Water can contain a oxygen level up to 14 ppm if I remember right but it needs to be very pure, rivers in south america dont usual reach over 11 ppm and that is not so many of them that do...depending on which river and season many of them never reach above 9 ppm and under dry season it can be very low.

In a tank we can usual provide a oxygen level between 6 and 8 ppm there 6 ppm are bad but they survive and 8 ppm are good, if the water have a lower conductivity and small amounts of pollution we can reach a little higher but that dont helps if the nitrate level is to high. Most of the loricariids are used to high levels of oxygen and needs that to breed (in a tank anyway)...other kind of fishes that dont require the same level is not so hard to please and that is also a reason why some fishes are more sensitive then others to nitrate.

I didn't meant that all species just need more oxygen but many species we try to breed in our tanks comes from rivers with small fluctuation's but I am aware that some needs more then that.

Janne

[MatsP]

Hey, this is an interesting subject indeed.

Janne: Water's capacity for holding gases (Oxygen or others) is dependant on the temperature, as well as "what else is dissolved in the water". Lower temperature -> more capacity for holding dissolved gasses. [Unfortunately, fish don't necessarily like lower temps, and the nitro-cycle isn't working quite as fast with lower temps, which is why cold-water fish should be kept in bigger tanks than tropicals].

--
Mats

[kkorotev]

At 83 degrees, the eggs have hatched in 7 days. There are over 30 wigglers.

Kevin