Thank you for your help, everyone. Mods are banning me

PlecoRising · Post by **PlecoRising** » 07 Oct 2005, 14:01

My post about having food stuck in my pleco's nostril has gotten me much harrassment by two of the moderators. I originally inquired about what I could do about this stuck food, and then posted a happy/relieved post about the food being disintegrated---then I get a threat to ban me by two mods.

I appreciate all of you who gave your Pleco opinions to me over the past couple years. Perhaps I'll see you at the other more poster-friendly Pleco forums. All the best!

Regards,

Kurt

pturley · Post by **pturley** » 07 Oct 2005, 14:48

No, your actions in response to our doing our duty in moderating these boards may well get you banned.

Again, from my P/M to you on 10-5-05:

Profanity isn't premitted on the boards, or in P/Ms. PERIOD. Consider this a stern warning, IT WILL NOT BE TOLERATED.

Typically a moderator will leave (or P/M) a message as to why the post was deleted. I didn't delete this message, although I very likely would have (at least would have merged it). The post (at least as a separte thread) is clearly a "TRIVIAL POST". Which would be in violation of the RULES. If it were an additional post within the previous thread, I doubt any action would have been taken.

Should you disagree, please feel free to state your reasons why. Also please explain why this change in status of your fish would warrant a separate thread.

YouTube · Post by **Jools** » 07 Oct 2005, 15:28

Plecorising also sent the following to another mod in response to our repeated attempts to explain trivial posting, rule infringements and trolling.

Sounds like you get a rise off of bullying innocent posters. Perhaps outside of the forums you are pushed around and have little control in your life, and therefore feel justified/relieved that you can do it to others on a different medium.
You really shouldn't label people so easily as being trolls or what have you. I love the plecostomus and enjoy frequenting this and other pl*co forums. If you decide to ban me from the site, you will only strengthen my theory about overzealous mods such as yourself.

The same moderator was also referred to as an a**hole in another PM. That's well out of order and demonstrates the amazing tolerance the moderator team here display in handling such things.

I've banned Plecorising.

Jools

Jackster · Post by **Jackster** » 07 Oct 2005, 22:12

Hello Jools!
I have something to comment on and let me say first that I have much respect for this forum and
I realize that the rules must be followed but sometimes the general tone of this forum can be a little too serious.

This particular case may be different but I had a "fight" with a couple of moderators on another forum
and they made me extremely angry. I definitely felt I was being called stupid and wrong besides the fact
that I was ganged up on (2 against 1). Profanity never came into play but I would say that I resorted to
a personal attack (with words). I later tried to bury the hatchet and, although I was not banned, I certainly
felt that I received unfair ratings in a couple of photo contests after the incident. Read This

Now that you've heard my life story, the point I'm trying to make is that we need to be careful and use
some tact when we deal with other people. Everyone is not an expert and beginners come to this site
for information and not to be told they are stupid and then be scared off. I'm a member of many forums
and I have seen posts that say "Planet Catfish is a bunch of snobs". This may be totally unfare but
why not treat even beginners with some respect.

I feel that this is one of the best forums in the world. I consider myself to be an advanced hobbist
in fishkeeping but I also have feelings. People from all over the world use this forum and they bring
in many different opinions. We will never all agree but let's be nice to each other OK.

I love you man!

YouTube · Post by **Jools** » 07 Oct 2005, 23:17

Hi Jackster,

Thank you for you kind comments.

If this forum feels different to others then that's because it is. Shouldn't it be?

It is unfortunate I have not met you personally, I'd certainly like to talk this through with plecorising in person, but such is the way with the online world that I do not get to meet all the people I would wish.

I have, however, met most of the moderating team in the real world, I know they are really good people. When they are called names, when people break rules, should I turn a blind eye?

I have received more than one email from plecorising in the last few hours. Once retrieved from my SPAM/profanity filter, the only one I can post without breaking several forum rules is as follows.

You must really be an unhappy person. Chances are you get kicked around and feel you have little control in your life to be so overzelous in banning people. There are plenty of other Pleco forums about that are freindly, so
you really dont affect me. Tis a shame you're not smarter.

I am delighted to see planetcatfish can consider itself amoung the leading pleco fora. I am sure the other sites, and their moderators, will enjoy plecorisings intercourse.

But then that last para is a little sarky.

I should revert to type. I am very fortunate to be one of the happiest people I know. I am even more fortunate to count of lot of the other happy people I know as good friends and many of these are forum moderators.

I am a business unit director (US=CEO), working for one the the UKs leading IT companies. We all get kicked around a lot in this life but I always have hope to claim a modicum of control.

This website has been running for nearly a decade. plecorising is the 3rd of the 4021 registered users of this forum I have banned.

It is not something I do lightly.

Jools

YouTube · Post by **Jools** » 07 Oct 2005, 23:21

PS Happy to hear any other comments on this topic from anyone who wishes to chip in.

Post by **Shane** » 07 Oct 2005, 23:47

Jackster (and others),
Let me post a few comments because you raise some important issues. I want to point out that these are my personal thoughts and may or may not reflect those of Jools or the other Mods.
I was not a part of the issue above with Plecorising but you (and everyone else) should know that maybe half a dozen people have ever been threatened with being banned in all the years this Forum has been around and most were out and out Trolls, Flamers, and/or Graffiti writers. With over 4,000 members, that means around 1 in 1,000 people have been warned about their behavior. I would consider that pretty amazing since 1 in 142 US citizens is currently in jail for unsocial behavior. One reason this statistic is so low is because we have a lot of really neat people here. The other is because you really have to go out of your way to be chastised about behavior in the Forums. It did tick me off a bit to see Plecorising post "Mods are banning me" as his thread title when, as you can read above, Plecorising was simply told that his rude actions MAY (my emphasis) get him banned. I guess that speaks to the individual's atitude.

sometimes the general tone of this forum can be a little too serious.

I am not sure what you mean by this. Can you expand? I do not think there is anyone here that would not be open to constructive comments.

I have seen posts that say "Planet Catfish is a bunch of snobs".

I have seen the same thing. My two cents here are that in the world's efforts to recognize everyone's opinion as equal (a worthy goal), facts somehow got mixed up with opinions. You and I can debate all day our opinions over whether the oto, Ancistrus, or Farlowella, is the best algae eater(preferably over a cold beer). That said, it is not an opinion that a Red Tail cat can live happily ever after in a 55 gallon tank. Somehow things have become twisted to the point that if you tell someone that Corydoras are happiest in shoals, that one water change a year does not get it, or that a Panaque nigrolineatus will not live out a normal life in a 10 gallon tank, you are not respecting that person's opinion. This is hogwash. Everytime I have seen someone post on another site that Planetcatfish is mean/bad/snobbish/etc, I have actually gone back and tried to investigate the problem. Without exception the reason has been because someone here told them that maybe neon tetras and a tiger shovelnose were not going to be a good combination or something similar.
In these folk's case, they are more than welcome to find another Forum that will tell them that a Red Tail is fine in a 55 gallon tank. At least those nice folks will respect their "opinion" that this is a good idea.
-Shane

Mike_Noren · Post by **Mike_Noren** » 08 Oct 2005, 00:06

I just want to voice my support for the moderators, and thank them for maintaining this site as a readable & credible resource.

Post by **Barbie** » 08 Oct 2005, 00:19

First, I need to apologize to Jools and everyone else here for causing this problem. I deleted PlecoRising's post about how his pleco had recovered from being completely covered in fish food. I didn't think that recommending that people dump enough fish food to completely cover their fish was going to be conducive to intelligent discourse and it was late, so I just deleted it. I had no intention of causing a huge upset, and I actually hoped he'd just get the hint that trolling wasn't going to be allowed. I was wrong, obviously.

I love this board, and I enjoy the people that post here more than I can possibly say. I do tend to be blunt and honest, and that isn't always what people want to hear. I did ask PlecoRising to reread the rules and think about them, but I was informed that less than 1% of people read rules anyway. Thanks to all of you 1% ;).

Barbie

Tom2600 · Post by **Tom2600** » 08 Oct 2005, 00:38

I can see why all this started and why Barbie deleted the post but it all seems a little harsh. There is always the argument for allowing freedom of speech and I personally didn't see anything wrong with the post. However, if the rules have been broken then I suppose a ban can be enforced, as it has been. Personally, if I were a Mod, I would have used a bit more discretion.

Jackster · Post by **Jackster** » 08 Oct 2005, 00:55

I certainly am not sticking up for PlecoRising's actions but I'm glad I expressed my opinion.
I know "you guys" are all great people without a doubt. You put up with me right?
But seriously, I hate to use the word stupid so I will say inexperienced. I work with computers
every day and I find that a majority of the people that ask me for help are inexperienced to say the least.
I still try to do my best to help them and not jump to the conclusion that they are beyond help.
Can you relate that to aquariums and forums?
Do you remember how many trials and errors you went through to get to where you are now?

I must agree that 3 out of 4000 official bannings could not be considered overzealous.
My purpose was just to get everyone to think about how we all treat each other and it looks like this is
going to turn one negative event into a great mind merging post.

Since PlecoRising was being a total jerk and disrespecting this forum and it's rules than he must be banned.
I just thought maybe his PM's and emails should not have been posted as
it then sounds like a defense for your actions. I know he made the issue public but, if it was my
decision, I would not have posted anything and just pressed delete.

Planet Catfish is quite a bit beyond most other forums and I will say again that I mean no disrespect
to anyone but I did have to throw in my two cents worth. I personally found this forum to be just the opposite
of snobbish and Jools can tell you that I'm honored that he used a few of my amateur photos.
I just happened to notice a few bad comments on other forums and thought I would speak up.
Maybe others are just jealous and thanks for the history as I didn't realize this forum had been
running for so many years.

PS. I reviewed the rules again myself and will try to follow them closer.

YouTube · Post by **Jools** » 08 Oct 2005, 03:18

I think we're always going to have negative comments on other boards if for no other reason than the fact that we do, more or less, try and keep to the rules here because otherwise we drown in white noise.

As for keeping things private, how can we all learn if we don't know what's ok and not OK? Examples make good learning aids. If I just deleted it all forum users would be denied seeing what went on and the reasons for our actions.

This way everyone can decide for themselves if we're right or wrong and if there is a groundswell towards the latter the mods will have to reasses our practices.

Jools

sidguppy · Post by **sidguppy** » 08 Oct 2005, 03:28

Actually I'm very glad with the "strikt" way Jools, Pturley, Shane, Dinyar and the others (can't remember them all) run this show......

I'm a mod on another forum and as we grow, I tend to plagiarize the way this show is run

, too bad many of the others are IMNSHO too "politically correct".....

Why would I do that?
because I've seen -and ran into

- sooooooooo many rude, obnoxious, downright uncivil, toxic, trash-like, insolent a##holes on other forums that I have quit with many a forum in the last few years.

On a lot of forums it seems there's a "free-for-all-mudslinging-contest", and I have NO desire WHATSOEVER to lower myself AGAIN to the below-the-ground level of those 'kind of people' ever again.

so yes, I like it 'clean' and 'strikt'.

it keeps the true dedicated fishkeepers here and happy, and keeps the trash, the uncivilized ones out.

I too have read posts on other forums about planetcatfish "being snobbish" or even about "hey, let's troll up the place and start a riot" (wich has happened quite recently btw).
Almost always it's one of two:
-people get pi**ed off when they hear what they should hear instead of what they WANT to hear; wich is basically good advice instead of having some yes-men kissing their ego
-people get even more "in the red" when they're confronted with their own stupidity.

maybe I'm oldfashioned, but I remember when it was OK to be PROUD of being intelligent, having been a student, or doing research instead of nowawdays when it's all the rage of being dim as a lamppost and "us study heads" are again viewed as "nerds" or something to feel either sorry for or to stomp it into the ground.

So keep it up Mods & Admin; you're doing a great job, keeping the place healthy and clear of misbehavings; it's always a good thing finding the pearls of wisdom in the muddy ocean of ignorance.

snowball · Post by **snowball** » 08 Oct 2005, 03:56

The fact that this issue is beind discussed openly and honestly is a credit to the admins and mods here.

Although I've been keeping fish 'forever' and have been online for some time, I have only recently combined the two. I have had a great deal of trouble finding 'good' forums for the various aquatic interested I have, the vast majority leave me shaking my head at the ignorance that passes for 'facts' and the lack of ethics many sites promote.

It is sad to see people get upset or angry when they don't get the answers the want to hear, but this mirrors my past experiences working behind the counter it the LFS. Almost every day there would be people who didn't want to wait for a new tank to cycle would simply go straight to another aquarium where they were more than happy to take their money, or someone would spend hundreds of dollars on a new setup but refuse to buy a $20 book - Full speed ahead and damn the torpedos!

Planet Catfish may not be the most impressive looking site on the surface and is relatively quite in the social sense, but in the few months I've been here I have learnt a great deal about the subject at hand. The wealth of knowledge between the members is astounding and I for one and very grateful it exists.

YouTube · Post by **Jools** » 08 Oct 2005, 09:40

Just out of interest, and apologies for veering off topic a little, what other sites look better? While content is king, I'm always interested in others perceptions.

Jools

Azmeaiel · Post by **Azmeaiel** » 08 Oct 2005, 13:04

I think it is incredibly refreshing to see a forum that you dont have to wade through hundreds of useless posts to find info. Congratulations on keeping a very informative and tidy forum. I wouldnt for a second think of changing anything for someone who 'pours food on their fish because they think its funny'

If you would like to see a total spam nightmare just look here http://www.guppies.com/forums/index.php?

laurab5 · Post by **laurab5** » 08 Oct 2005, 13:36

I have got a warning from Barbie for not posting my location under the wanted section. And I thank her for it. She told me to put it on, and I edited my post and still didn't. I am forgetful. This is by far the best catfish site, period. And you guys have joined forces with zebrapleco.com. That site has already helped me a ton for when I acquire my 5-7 zebra plecos. Don't know when, but it will happen. Thanks everyone for a great site.

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 08 Oct 2005, 16:11

I agree with the moderators 100%

This is an excellent site, and the advice given here is always spot on.

If providing a professional source of information and a concise forum full of useful information is "snobbish" and "too serious", then FINE BY ME!

Keep up the great work.

zenyfish · Post by **zenyfish** » 08 Oct 2005, 17:59

Jools wrote:Just out of interest, and apologies for veering off topic a little, what other sites look better? While content is king, I'm always interested in others perceptions.

Jools

There are two sites that I think are really good, this one and cichlid-forum.com.

I like the searchability of the fish profiles on cichlid-forum.com better than Cat-elog. But Cat-elog provides more extensive information.

Information is great, but it has to be easily accessible.

bronzefry · Post by **bronzefry** » 08 Oct 2005, 20:20

I love this site because it is serious. I want the scientific point of view. I want to see the latest research. I want to get out a dictionary and look up words I don't understand. If I'm incorrect, I want to know and be corrected. I love clicking onto a posting and it's in a language I don't understand. It leaves me puzzled and clueless. Translation programs don't do well with slang and idioms, as I've found out. It is important to be clear with the way postings are worded. People post from around the world who are learning English. It's not fair to them to clog their computers with rants and insults.

Free speech is a right we have in the United States(no sarcastic comments, please). The Internet is a global community. Is there such a thing as free speech over the Internet?

I love Planet Catfish, Jools. Don't change a thing.

gemsonthebottom · Post by **gemsonthebottom** » 08 Oct 2005, 21:38

All I want to say is, God bless Planet Catfish and all the people involved with it! It is by far the most informative catfish site on the web period! Keep up the good work.

pleco_farmer · Post by **pleco_farmer** » 09 Oct 2005, 01:43

Jools, don't change anything, the tone is perfect, the moderators are top notch, and the discussions, with a few exceptions, are brilliant. No other forum that I have visited, on any topic, has the clarity and the depth that this site offers.

As for "newbies" or "beginners" who may feel put off, please search the forums before you post. One more time, please search the forums before you post. The less than enthusiastic reception that some posts receive is usually due to the fact that the question has been asked and answered many, many times before.

Thanks Jools!

Thanks Moderators!

gemjunkie · Post by **gemjunkie** » 09 Oct 2005, 02:44

I have to say, I also moderate a couple other boards. I have answered some questions, the exact same question, probably 100+ times. I TRY to be patient with new people and direct them to the post of interest so I don't have to continually repeat myself.

If there was no interest from new people, there would be no more fish-a-holics to pick up the slack when a time comes that we are not here. There are always going to be one or two out of the dozens of new 'faces' that actually stick with it and wind up making a difference.

I've found being patient with those that I get the feeling from that they are seriously into the fish and not just making me crazy asking the same things over and over till they get the answer they WANT to hear, are the ones worth the time for and should be directed in a respectful manner, not treated bady because the question was asked a week/month ago and needs to be re-addressed....

As for disrespecting the forum or moderators, that shouldn't be tollerated, here or elsewhere. If people can't show a bit of humillity when they are wrong, perhaps this is NOT the place for them. I know I've opened my yap a couple times and probably would have been better off to keep it shut.

Thanks for putting up with me...

Durlänger · Post by **Durlänger** » 09 Oct 2005, 10:55

I just love this pleace

So, Jools and Moderators, go one that way

minmin · Post by **minmin** » 09 Oct 2005, 14:20

Personally, I have far too much respect for my fish to abuse them just for kicks; especially as it was obviously detrimental to the fish's well being.

Its sad that someone has to make rude and abusive remarks to staff just because they're trying to do their job, and I agree wholeheartedly with the moderators.
Insults should never be tolerated.

Planet catfish is the best site Iâ??ve come across, with an amazing bank of information and helpful and friendly admin, moderators and (most) forum users.
Long may you reign!

Jackster · Post by **Jackster** » 09 Oct 2005, 19:19

Let's talk about intellect.

I did not suggest to make any changes to the forum or it's policies.
I simply felt that everyone (including myself) should stop and think before they post.

Some of the people in this forum have a wealth of knowledge that is far beyond mine
and that's why I come here to absorb any information that I can.

I really feel that the "intellegent people" have completely missed the point. It's great to me smart
but one's intellegence does not have to step on another's stupidity. I feel the comments about
"snobbish" or "too serious" are coming straight from people that asked a simple question and
then had their heads bit off and handed to them from the experts. If novice fish keepers are
not allowed to ask "stupid" questions than how can they learn anything?

I'm not a beginner and certainly not an expert. I'm somewhere in the middle and just trying to make
peace between the two classes. I guess the beginners need to be more subjective when asking
questions and the experts need to be a little more tactful when telling someone that they are wrong.
Otherwise you may end up with an experts only forum.

Freedom of speech is very important to me personally. I will exercise mine by pointing out that I see
what I would consider to be a "trivial post" even under this topic which just proves that we are not all perfect.
From the tone of this entire topic, I also noticed that the experts don't really like being
given advice so how do you expect a less experienced person to react to a similar situation?

Post by **Shane** » 09 Oct 2005, 19:46

Jackster (and others),

I feel the comments about
"snobbish" or "too serious" are coming straight from people that asked a simple question and then had their heads bit off and handed to them from the experts. If novice fish keepers are not allowed to ask "stupid" questions than how can they learn anything?

I do not want you to think that we do not take you (or any other Forum member) seriously. Can you please post some examples of the type of behavior you talk about above?

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 09 Oct 2005, 19:51

I think the only reason people might get a slightly abrubt answer is as pleco_farmer says: people fail to read the Stickys and to bother to search the forum before posting. if I were a mod, that would really wind me up.

It's not hard!!

Jackster · Post by **Jackster** » 09 Oct 2005, 20:44

That's really funny because I'm using the search feature to try and find the posts that Shane
asked me to give an example of and of course because I'm looking for them they can't be found.
I know just in the past week I saw 2 negative comments about Planet Catfish on other forums but
the problem is that I came acrossed them by accident and can't relocate the posts.

When I find a better example I will post it.
Here is an example of telling someone that they are wrong in the "wrong way" (just my opinion).

PC Hasselgreen · Post by **PC Hasselgreen** » 10 Oct 2005, 00:02

Jools wrote:PS Happy to hear any other comments on this topic from anyone who wishes to chip in.

i usually try to stay out of threads like this, but i got tempted. I am rather new to this forum though i am a moderator in another forum.

We did have a similar system to PlanetCatfish that showed how many posts a person had made. This does not, however, tell anything about a persons abilitys. All we achieved by it was that a few youngsters posted so their keyboards were glowing so they could get "Cred".
We removed it when we found out what was happening.

racoll wrote:I think the only reason people might get a slightly abrubt answer is as pleco_farmer says: people fail to read the Stickys and to bother to search the forum before posting. if I were a mod, that would really wind me up.

It's not hard!!

That is just so annoying. Stupid thing is that once the really good answers have been posted a few times the ones who post them get tired of answering the same questions over and over, knowing that the answers are just a search away. Result of such repeated questions is that people don't get good answers anymore... the cool guys think "you can just search for that"...

PC

Shane wrote: You and I can debate all day our opinions over whether the oto, Ancistrus, or Farlowella, is the best algae eater(preferably over a cold beer). -Shane

We shall be needing quite a few beers if you are to get me settled for one of those three as the best;)