Panaque Maccus or Peckoltia Vittata...

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 18 Jul 2005, 16:35

I'm looking for advice from those that have spawned either (or even better, both) of these species...

Both these sets of fish are in my community tank:
I have two, 1 male + 1 female I'm 90% sure they are male and female, ["female" is slightly rounder around the tummy area, and the "male" has cheek odontodes]).

I also have three , of which one is definite male [very hairy back end and cheek odontodes] and two are 95% sure to be females (as they have been in the tank for ~6 months, and not shown any signs of odontodes). The male was purchased this weekend, but has been in the shop for some time.

I have ONE tank for breeding, not quite available yet, but I'm trying to plan ahead.

So, my question is:
Which one do I try to breed next, Panaque or Peckoltia?

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Mats

laurab5 · Post by **laurab5** » 18 Jul 2005, 17:07

Breed the Peckoltia. The are more beautiful the the clowns and will be more of a challenge. I bred L134 for about a year and they spawned twice. Nice challenge they were, and very pretty. Also easier to sex.

bronzefry · Post by **bronzefry** » 18 Jul 2005, 22:02

Which ones do you think are older: the Panaque or the Peckoltia? I'm not an expert, but it would seem the older pairings would be more receptive to breeding sooner. Just my 2 cents.

(I like the article a lot, Mats. Can't wait for part 2!)

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 19 Jul 2005, 10:48

bronzefry wrote:Which ones do you think are older: the Panaque or the Peckoltia? I'm not an expert, but it would seem the older pairings would be more receptive to breeding sooner. Just my 2 cents. (I like the article a lot, Mats. Can't wait for part 2!)

I've had the panaque females for about half a year or so, while I only just got the Peckoltias a good month ago. But as to their actual age, I haven't got a clue. The male panaque is definitely looking very "adult".

The Panaque's are smaller, so if I could find somewhere to put my "new" tank, I could probably get them to live in there...

I went with "father-in-law" to the tip to get rid of some carpets, old wardrobes, etc. They had a Juwel Rekord 70, a 60cm, ~60 liter tank standing amongst the "recovered junk". I asked "How much?" and they said "A fiver". I just couldn't walk away... It doesn't have any of the heater/pump equipment, but I put it up outside with water in it, and it holds water no problem. Just need to find some space in the house...

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Mats

YouTube · Post by **Jools** » 19 Jul 2005, 10:54

laurab5 wrote:Breed the Peckoltia. The are more beautiful the the clowns and will be more of a challenge.

I have to strongly disagree! Peckoltia spp. are commonly spawned, has yet to be spawned AFAIK, so if you're are looking for a challenge, it must be the latter.

As to the cosmetic appeal of the youngsters, they are very hard to tell apart when small and young P. maccus are very pretty indeed, perhaps even more so than Peckoltia vittata.

Jools

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 19 Jul 2005, 11:18

Jools wrote:
laurab5 wrote:Breed the Peckoltia. The are more beautiful the the clowns and will be more of a challenge.
I have to strongly disagree! Peckoltia spp. are commonly spawned,
Panaque maccus
has yet to be spawned AFAIK, so if you're are looking for a challenge, it must be the latter.

As to the cosmetic appeal of the youngsters, they are very hard to tell apart when small and young P. maccus are very pretty indeed, perhaps even more so than Peckoltia vittata.

Jools

Hmm. Not sure if I'd rather go for a "intermediate" or "hard". It's obviously more of an achievement to do the "difficult"...

Larry Vires has spawned/bred Panaque Maccus according to this thread.

Of course, that's not exactly the same as "Most people can do it", if I understand things right... I think LV is better at breeding pleco's than most people...

--
Mats

YouTube · Post by **Jools** » 19 Jul 2005, 12:56

OK, let me rephrase that, AFAIK the breeding hasn't been documented. While Larry may be very good at breeding plecos, he's nearly the worst at documenting it and many question his various self reported successes becuase of this. I don't want this to become another Larry Vires post, so I'll leave it at that.

I'd say you graduate from breeding Hemiloricaria or Ancistrus, through Sturisoma, Peckoltia or Hypancistrus then up to stuff like Panaque maccus, larger Panaques, Pseudacanthicus etc. So attempting P. maccus straight off might be overambitious?

Jools

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 19 Jul 2005, 13:34

Jools wrote:OK, let me rephrase that, AFAIK the breeding hasn't been documented. While Larry may be very good at breeding pl*cos, he's nearly the worst at documenting it and many question his various self reported successes becuase of this. I don't want this to become another Larry Vires post, so I'll leave it at that.

Ok, that makes sense.

I'd say you graduate from breeding Hemiloricaria or Ancistrus, through Sturisoma, Peckoltia or Hypancistrus then up to stuff like Panaque maccus, larger Panaques, Pseudacanthicus etc. So attempting P. maccus straight off might be overambitious?

Jools

Yeah, that was my thoughts too. If the peckoltia's are a bit easier to breed, I should probably go for them first. Crawl, walk then run... Get sore knees if you do it the wrong way round.

If I had the space for the second (well, fifth) tank, I'd probably go for both at the same time. I think a 60L tank would be sufficent for the panaque's, as they aren't very big (but I'm pretty sure they are adults]. Obviously with lots of wood and caves for the three of them to hide when they want to avoid each other...

Anyways, I've got a few weeks to think about it, as the tank is still full of little bristlenose babies...

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Mats

ramblin man · Post by **ramblin man** » 19 Jul 2005, 20:31

Matt, you should go for the Peckoltia vittata, IMO.

And if you're successful be sure to drop me a line if you wanted to sell one - I'm not too far from you.

The fact that I've already got a Panaque maccus didn't sway my reasoning

bronzefry · Post by **bronzefry** » 19 Jul 2005, 21:10

I think they'll both breed for you at some point in time, Mats. I just learned I've been going about things all wrong, since I've been getting what I can find rather than what's best for a beginner. I need to find a beautiful pair of BN's and learn to breed them. A new real LFS is opening up near me soon. Hope springs eternal.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 20 Jul 2005, 09:33

Well, yes, I'd like to breed both, and I most likely will. But I can probably only breed one set at a time, so that's what I'm trying to determine.

I think I'll start with the Peckoltia's, since it may be a bit easier to convince them to breed.

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Mats

bedwetter · Post by **bedwetter** » 20 Jul 2005, 18:51

This is an interesting thread. I am new to pl*cos, but I had read on several websites that P. maccus was one of the easier species to spawn. Interesting how misinformation can be passed around enough to eventually become 'common knowledge'.

I haven't bred any pl*cos yet, but I have a few young P. maccus and actually am in the proccess of buying an adult male and female. I had hoped to spawn them, but now I don't have much hope

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 20 Jul 2005, 19:26

bedwetter wrote:This is an interesting thread. I am new to pl*cos, but I had read on several websites that P. maccus was one of the easier species to spawn. Interesting how misinformation can be passed around enough to eventually become 'common knowledge'.

I haven't bred any pl*cos yet, but I have a few young P. maccus and actually am in the proccess of buying an adult male and female. I had hoped to spawn them, but now I don't have much hope

Well, there's no harm in trying. If you don't try, then you're DEFINITELY not going to succeed. However, it's probably a good idea to try with something that is REALLY easy first, like bristlenoses or something. Just to iron out your handling of those tiny fry and growing them to reasonable size...

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Mats

Griparn · Post by **Griparn** » 20 Jul 2005, 19:36

Im going to try breeding my P.Maccus. I have 1 male 1 female in one tank and 1 male 2 females in another tank.

I think I will have to get a RO-unit to make things happen.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 21 Jul 2005, 10:37

Griparn wrote:Im going to try breeding my P.Maccus. I have 1 male 1 female in one tank and 1 male 2 females in another tank.

I think I will have to get a RO-unit to make things happen.

Yeah, I think you need some RO water. Whether it's sufficient to get a few containers from the LFS or get a proper unit is a different question. I might be able to make a deal with my LFS, since I'm quite a regular there... [But some LFS sell not so RO'd RO water, because they cheat on replacing/cleaning the filter bits...]

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Mats

bedwetter · Post by **bedwetter** » 21 Jul 2005, 14:23

Yeah Mats, your probably right. I should at least try (and I will). I have a few bristlnoses right now, some albinos that just never seemed to grow much and haven't done anything, and just picked up a pair of wild sp3?. Hopefully they will do something for me.

If anyone succeeds with their P maccus, let me know how you did it!

jeff

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 01 Aug 2005, 17:25

My plans for the Peckoltia Vittata breeding project has been slightly thwarted(sp?) by my second "female" fish also starting to grow odontodes on the cheeks, so I'm now back to thinking that I've got two males. Oh, well, if it was supposed to be easy, anyone would be able to do it...

So, before I can breed them, I need to get at least one female...

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Mats

Post by **Janne** » 01 Aug 2005, 18:43

Peckoltia and small Panaque species have cheek odontodes in both sexes but the female less and not so thick as the male.
Easier to look on the pectoral fin if feeling unsecure on the sex...females have just small knobs and the males are ~2-3 mm, if you put a extra powerhead in the tank and make water changes almost daily so will your male soon have heavy odontodal growth on his body.

Janne

bedwetter · Post by **bedwetter** » 02 Aug 2005, 02:44

Just came across this German forum thread showing what species users are keeping and whether they have spawned them or not. http://l-welse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4668
At least one of the people keeping P. maccus reports spawning them. So, perhaps they have been spawned in an aquarium after all (don't know if they show any documentation of it though).

Jeff

ablank · Post by **ablank** » 02 Aug 2005, 22:22

Panaque maccus can be breed. I used rainwater to lower the conductivity from 400 us to 150 us. They only breed in bamboo-pipes, never in any other cave. The hole in the bamboo must bee 2,5-3 cm. It all took place in a small tank. Only 30 Liters. Not gallon. I have had this type of catfish for more than 10 years, before they breed. Think they need wood caves.

Anders.

bedwetter · Post by **bedwetter** » 02 Aug 2005, 22:47

Thanks for the tip Anders! I will have to get some bamboo pipes!

Jeff

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 08 Aug 2005, 10:15

Janne wrote:Peckoltia and small Panaque species have cheek odontodes in both sexes but the female less and not so thick as the male.
Easier to look on the pectoral fin if feeling unsecure on the sex...females have just small knobs and the males are ~2-3 mm, if you put a extra powerhead in the tank and make water changes almost daily so will your male soon have heavy odontodal growth on his body.

Janne

Thanks for the tips. Unfortunately, daily (noticable) water changes in a 400 liter community tank is a bit of a pain, so I think I'll wait 'til I've got them in a separate tank before I do that treatment...

[Sorry, I haven't got a fish-room. Yet...]

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Mats