Spawning Report-L264

pleco_farmer · Post by **pleco_farmer** » 10 Feb 2005, 16:24

Two L264 in a 55Gal. are maintained at 84F, pH7, 6KH/7GH, fed primarily frozen bloodworm, weekly krill, and zuchinni, which helps to maintain an ancistrus on algae patrol, so I can't speak to how much is eaten by the L264. I was also adding 20-30 small snails about once a week which were devoured. (This group started off as five, but the big guy spent one night thinning out the competition...a rather expensive way to sex your plecs!)

About two weeks ago, began 20% changes with R/O water, to which minor amounts of trace elements were added, every other day. Temp was allowed to fall to 78F, hardness fell to 2KH/3GH.

After two weeks, allowed temp to return to 84F. Two days later, one of the fish had disappeared. Both specimens spend their days in caves, and now one was missing. Of course, my first instinct was to check the floor, betraying a certain lack of confidence, but I found no corpse. Later that afternoon, I noticed the larger of the two out of his cave, and the smaller one inside. Great expectations!

They spent the day in the usual rituals, very similar to ancistrus. He finally got her positioned in the cave tail first, then trapped her in the cave with the classic diagonal body block.

The next morning, the female was out and about, and the male was sitting on a pile of eggs. Very similar to an ancistrus spawn in color, size and quality. However, he's a bit skittish, so direct observation is tough. It does appear to be a nice healthy clutch. I did see an infertile egg at the edge of the clutch, we'll see if Pops takes care of it. I'm holding off on pictures, since this is his first, but will definitely post fry shots.

In summary, two week rainy cycle with drops in temp and conductivity followed by a return to normal, was followed in two days by a spawn. Mating took place over two days in a rectangular slate cave 8" long, having an opening 2.5"X1.25". Male is 7.0" TL, and female is 6" TL. They have been in the tank about one year, and were both approximately 4" TL at purchase.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 10 Feb 2005, 16:31

Congratulations Pleco_farmer.

I guess this should be saved and published in Shane's world for easier finding in future years.

--
Mats

Post by **Janne** » 10 Feb 2005, 19:29

My experience of this species differ a little from you, the clutch of eggs contained around 30-35 eggs of a size ~4 mm and in color beige/grey. The eggs hatched after four days and they had a huge yolk sac that was consumed after 8 days, at this time the fry are quite big.
They spawn twice and both times ended up with the male eating the fry just the same day or day before I was thinking to empty the cave...frustrating, the pair died after some time in an accident with the heater.

I hope you have better luck then me...

Janne

pleco_farmer · Post by **pleco_farmer** » 10 Feb 2005, 20:35

I have never seen such a skittish male. In a darkened room, just walking by the tank gets him excited. If they hatch out, maybe I'll pull them early, to be safe. Thanks for the input.

Post by **Janne** » 10 Feb 2005, 21:16

I agree...they seams to be very nervous guarding eggs and fry...I think my fault was that I tried to take pic's of him and that made him giving up and eat them instead.
Maybe you should pull them early at least this first batch just after they hatch...I told you that they hatched after 4 days but I had 31 C in the tank in my case so if you have lower temp maybe it takes 5 days before hatching.

Janne

pleco_farmer · Post by **pleco_farmer** » 13 Feb 2005, 23:57

He ate the clutch last night, damn. A few infertile eggs were visible, but the majority of the spawn looked good.

Back to the drawing board. Will probably strip the next clutch before they hatch. I can't make it any more peaceful down here, and the male is still a bit freaky. The pair is in a 55gal, which is 12" from front to back. There's no real room to shelter the cave with wood. We'll see what happens.

See you in eight weeks...

Post by **Janne** » 14 Feb 2005, 20:07

Some of my species I use black paper to cover the glass so they not get disturbed...that is quite effective but not so fun.

Janne

pleco_farmer · Post by **pleco_farmer** » 18 May 2005, 16:36

Two days and counting...

Every six weeks, like clockwork. Had to steal these away and removed eight out of about one hundred. Easy egg to work with, nice and large, not too hard to pierce.

pleco_farmer · Post by **pleco_farmer** » 18 May 2005, 16:42

...that's an American quarter coin, approximately 1.75mm in thickness, 31mm in diameter.

Candice · Post by **Candice** » 18 May 2005, 17:04

Good luck!

bronzefry · Post by **bronzefry** » 19 May 2005, 16:31

Lovely clutch of eggs. Good luck!

pleco_farmer · Post by **pleco_farmer** » 19 May 2005, 18:30

Infertile they were, last ones turned today. Maybe the big guy is shooting blanks?

Back to the drawing board, probably shorten the cave a bit, because what we have here is definitely a failure to fertilize...

bronzefry · Post by **bronzefry** » 19 May 2005, 22:01

Is there any way to test the eggs, to see if they are fertile?

bronzefry · Post by **bronzefry** » 19 May 2005, 22:02

I mean other than the obvious...

pleco_farmer · Post by **pleco_farmer** » 19 May 2005, 23:39

You're right, it is just a question of observation. The interior of a fertile egg will be noticeably differentiated after a day or two, it is easy to see at the margins. If you are stripping a clutch, it is really obvious, as you will usually find several infertile ones in the bunch, and notice the difference.

There is some good photography of sturisoma egg development in the reproduction section.

xinguinsis · Post by **xinguinsis** » 20 May 2005, 01:13

Hi Pleco Farmer,
Just make sure I've got this right.You shorten the cave to incorage the male to be closer to the eggs and increase fertilization rate?
Regards Chris

pleco_farmer · Post by **pleco_farmer** » 20 May 2005, 13:30

Yes, there are a lot of opinions on cave sizes, and a lot of latitude on what is accepted by the fish. However, I believe that the suitablity of the spawning site is among the most important parameters in the equation. This thread is getting a bit of traffic so maybe a review is useful.

So, here we go...

The male must trap the female in the closed end of the cave. He does this within the cave by laying diagonally across the opening, locking his dorsal and pectoral fins against the cave walls. This behavior influences the height and width of the cave. These dimensions must be large enough to accomodate the pair, yet small enough to allow the male to grip the walls. Of the two dimensions, height is more critical, so most of my caves have opnings that are wider than they are tall.

In fact, a little extra width seems beneficial. If the female can enter headfirst and then bend somewhat into a "U" shape, the eggs are deposited closer to the back wall. With this pair, the female entered headfirst and the male forced her all the way back into the cave, in sort of a "T" configuration. I'm sure that there are differences among species, maybe even individuals. In fact, I have an ancistrus male who has spent hours convincing a female to "back into" the cave. It is actually quite comical.

For length, a distance slightly longer than the SL of the male is usually acceptable. If the cave is too long, the fanning of the male may not be as effective. When males fan a spawn they back out of the tube exposing their fins to open water. It is probably best to minimize the distance between the water movement and the clutch.

Overall, tighter is better. It is surprising, I have 3.5"SL (90mm) hypancistrus that spawn in 3.0"L X 0.75"W X 0.6"H (76.2mmX19mmX15mm)

Now, these are all generalizations, and "your mileage may vary". I know that there are a thousand stories involving freaky spawning sites out there, I've seen quite a few myself. However, when I start to work with a breeding group, this is where I start, with cave spawners.

As for shortening this particular cave...

There are many possibilities as to why the eggs are continually infertile. Right now, shortening the cave is about the only parameter that I can modify. (Although, I may move the next spawn to a diffent tank to rule out pathogens?)

I've received a number of questions on this one, so finally, one last comment on observations and conclusions...

Let's say that I shorten the cave and get a successful spawning. Given the fact that this is only one pair of fish, can we really conclude that the cave dimensions were the culprit? What if this was all a question of maturity, and the male needed a few tries to get it right? What if the pair are just not right together? Since my basement is warming up as Summer approaches, what if it was temperature related? It is a multi-variate process, and we are running few trials with no controls. Please take all of the above with this in mind. I just try to optimize as many conditions as I can, to increase the chances of success overall. There is no single right answer, its nature, and somehow these fish have managed on their own in the wild, without us, for many, many years. Hell, even I managed to reproduce a couple of times...

xinguinsis · Post by **xinguinsis** » 20 May 2005, 17:14

Thanks for that Pleco Farmer.How well do ultra violet sterilizers work if pathogens are the problem?
Regards Chris

pleco_farmer · Post by **pleco_farmer** » 20 May 2005, 22:04

...and then there were two, but they both hatched. Yes, that is a fry protruding at 2 o'clock from what looks like an egg on the left.

...apologize for the photo, a point and shoot is all I've got here today, I'll get my D-100 back tomorrow.

bronzefry · Post by **bronzefry** » 20 May 2005, 22:13

Now, these are all generalizations, and "your mileage may vary".

I've noticed that spawning all around tends to be quite comical. I'll leave it there. Lovely pics. The T-position is interesting.

xinguinsis · Post by **xinguinsis** » 21 May 2005, 04:58

Congratulations Pleco Farmer any reported succesful breeding of this speciec before by antone?
Regards Chris

YouTube · Post by **Jools** » 22 May 2005, 16:53

xinguinsis wrote:Congratulations pl*co Farmer any reported succesful breeding of this speciec before by antone?
Regards Chris

Yes, there was an article in DATZ a year or two back, but I am very much hoping pleco farmer will write on up for Shane's World once he gets over the excitement of the first viable batch! That would be excellent for all round I think?

Jools

davidkozak · Post by **davidkozak** » 22 May 2005, 19:39

Sorry that the first two spawns weren't successful, but it's still awesome news.

Good luck with the future spawns. David

pleco_farmer · Post by **pleco_farmer** » 25 May 2005, 13:11

Well Jools, let's not count fry before they are really viable, I lost the two that hatched. Their yolk sacs looked odd, slightly distended, not quite nice and ovoid, as I've seen in healthy cases in other species. I will try to find some time to do the topic some justice. I've also finished pics for the breeding tank setups, which need some text, and I'm in the middle of a plywood tank construction piece for a magazine, which could be excerpted here as well. Maybe in a month or so...

(Thanks Dave, I know that you've been there!)

Upside is that this pair is popping at a nice regular interval, so we'll have another go in a month or so. In the meantime, I will probably acquire a few more specimens. From observing this single male, it appears that his radius of comfort is about two feet, so I wouldn't work with a pair in less than a 55gal. (1220mm long)

I was relating this experience to a fellow hobbyist at a club meeting last month, trying to explain why adding new pairs was tough. He found it quite odd that I would have to wait a year or more for the fish to mature.

But then, he raises killifish...

pleco_farmer · Post by **pleco_farmer** » 25 May 2005, 13:18

BTW, I found the Datz article as well, after reading several posts by Janne. Anyone interested could start with Janne's work on the site here. My practices with both L-264 and L-134 have become very similar to his, and my experiences are proving out to match his in many respects.

Spawning Report-L264

Spawning Report-L264

134

spawning

264

Re: 264