Can you help me with this?

Lied · Post by **Lied** » 16 May 2005, 21:10

Hello everybody, I'm new here and from the Netherlands! I have a tank: 70 litres, and 60 centimetres in length. I know it's a bit small, but I really love catfish and I'm not only talking about corydoras species witch I already have, but also catfish like the hypancistrus zebra! But...I think my tank is a little bit too small voor zebra's or am I wrong? And if I'm right, then maybe one of you know which catfish I can keep in my tank? Thnx!

Greetz from Lied uit Holland

mummymonkey · Post by **mummymonkey** » 16 May 2005, 21:47

I have some Hara jerdoni which stay small.

Lied · Post by **Lied** » 16 May 2005, 21:49

Do you have a picture of them? And how small are they, then?

Lied · Post by **Lied** » 16 May 2005, 21:53

Ah i found some pics on the Inet, i like it, but not as much as the zebra...sigh

in Dutch I couldn't find information about this fish, so I don't know if I can get then here in Holland...

Lied · Post by **Lied** » 17 May 2005, 06:56

Is there anyone else who can help me?

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 17 May 2005, 08:32

some people may disagree, but i think you can keep about 3 in that tank. do loads of research on them and make sure you provide them with ideal conditions, and they should be fine.

are you aware of how much they cost and how impossible they are to aquire?

good luck. there are loads of other small plecs you can keep if you can't find zebras. just browse the cat-elog under L-numbers.

Lied · Post by **Lied** » 17 May 2005, 09:11

Thank you for your answer! Yes, I'm aware of what they cost (in Holland they are about 150 Euros), and fortunately I know were to get them!I already read very much about them, but if anyone can give me a site with even more information, I would be very happy. But...it will take a while before I got 300 or 450 Euros

. Even though I really want zebra plecos, I will browse the cat e-log, there a so many beautiful catfishes...

kev · Post by **kev** » 17 May 2005, 09:38

good luck with the Zebra's and dont forget to post pic's if you get them

.

Kev

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 17 May 2005, 10:30

If you want , then I'd say go for it. 2-3 of those in your size tank should be fine. They don't grow very big, and as long as you keep the stocking in the tank low, you should be Ok. Most importantly, make sure there are lots of caves/crevices/hiding places, and that you have plenty of current in the tank (something like 10x the tank turnover rate would be a good starting point, so a 700 l/h pump, but 1000l/h is probably better).

I would say tho', that if you haven't been keeping "exotic" suckermouth catfish, it's probably a good idea to start with something less expensive and sensitive. Say for instance a less expensive Hypancistrus specie, , , or .

They aren't quite as striking as the H. Zebra, but they are nice fish, and it will be good "practice" for the H. Zebra to keep a similar specie.

For more info on , take a look at the new FAQ entry.

--
Mats

sidguppy · Post by **sidguppy** » 17 May 2005, 10:52

Zebra's in the Nerherlands?

then why not get a big tank?
you're not telling me you can afford a fish wich does 200-400E a piece these days and not a big tank??

for 3 Zebra's you must spend at least 600Euro's, and if you keep fish like that, best put them in a good set-up

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 17 May 2005, 10:57

sidguppy wrote:Zebra's in the Nerherlands?

then why not get a big tank?
you're not telling me you can afford a fish wich does 200-400E a piece these days and not a big tank??

for 3 Zebra's you must spend at least 600Euro's, and if you keep fish like that, best put them in a good set-up

Sid, good point. I agree with that too.

If you're going to spend a lot of money on the fish, you should be able to spend a little bit extra on getting a good tank set up. A 120-130L tank shouldn't take more than an extra 10-20cm in each direction, and it shouldn't cost you more than about E200-250 (assuming prices in the netherlands isn't too far from the current prices in England, a 130L is about 120 GBP x 1.6 -> E192 + some extra
for gravel, extra water pump/filter).

--
Mats

Lied · Post by **Lied** » 17 May 2005, 15:21

You are totally right, but... I'm still living with my parents, and I can't get a bigger tank they won't let me

. I'm now 16 years old, and when I'm living on my own in about lets say..2 or 4 years from now, I will get them in a bigger tank anyway that was my plan. If I buy the zebra's, I will buy them very small you see, so when they grow bigger, I will put them in a bigger tank. I have experience with all kinds of fish, but thnx MatsP! Can I also keep one zebra in my tank, and a few species that you mentioned?

Lied · Post by **Lied** » 17 May 2005, 15:30

MatsP wrote:If you want
Hypancistrus Zebra
, then I'd say go for it. 2-3 of those in your size tank should be fine. They don't grow very big, and as long as you keep the stocking in the tank low, you should be Ok. Most importantly, make sure there are lots of caves/crevices/hiding places, and that you have plenty of current in the tank (something like 10x the tank turnover rate would be a good starting point, so a 700 l/h pump, but 1000l/h is probably better).

I would say tho', that if you haven't been keeping "exotic" suckermouth catfish, it's probably a good idea to start with something less expensive and sensitive. Say for instance a less expensive Hypancistrus specie,
Hypancistrus sp(L066)
,
Peckoltia sp(L134)
,
Hypancistrus sp(L260)
or
Hypancistrus sp(L333)
.

They aren't quite as striking as the H. Zebra, but they are nice fish, and it will be good "practice" for the H. Zebra to keep a similar specie.

For more info on
Hypancistrus Zebra
, take a look at the new FAQ entry.

--
Mats

Thank you for the informatiomn I really like the Hypancistrus sp (L260) and (L333), but a boy who I know that has 3 hypancistrus zebra, told me that these fish are even more expensive than the zebra? I think he was talking about the L260.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 17 May 2005, 15:35

Lied wrote:Can I also keep one zebra in my tank, and a few species that you mentioned?

I wouldn't think that keeping more than about three Hypancistrus in one tank is a good idea, for several reasons:
1. They are territorial towards conspecifics (i.e. others similar to themselves), so you need enough "floorspace" to keep them. You should cound on something like 400-900 cm2 (so about 20x20 to 30x30 cm) for each fish.
2. They need pretty clean water, and can produce a large amount of waste, so if you have them in a crowded situation, they probably "won't like it".
3. Cross-breeding is a strong possibility between different Hypancistrus species. So if you keep for instance with , then you may get babies that have one of each as parents. This is a hybrid, which is not a good thing. If you ever want to sell the offspring (and what else are you going to do with 15 or more little Hypancistrus's), you'd better not have a hybrid specie. [This is a lot more severe than cross-breeding a German shepherd with a Labrador, because all dogs are still the same specie, just different variants. And if you know anything about dogs, you'd know that crossbreeds aren't exactly as valuable as the pure breeds].

--
Mats

Lied · Post by **Lied** » 17 May 2005, 15:50

Allright thank you, then I will keep 3 fishes just of one kind. The only fish I want in the tank also is a group of neontetra's (I don't know if this is good spelled in English

). I don't think it's a problem and the colours will match very nice I think!

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 17 May 2005, 16:06

Lied wrote:Allright thank you, then I will keep 3 fishes just of one kind. The only fish I want in the tank also is a group of neontetra's (I don't know if this is good spelled in English ). I don't think it's a problem and the colours will match very nice I think!

Sure, you can keep some friendly and colourful tetras with these. Neons may not be the best ones, as they don't like the strong current that you should have for the best effect on the Hypancistrus sp.

I'm not quite sure which tetras would be good companions, but I'm sure someone is able to let you know.

--
Mats

Lied · Post by **Lied** » 17 May 2005, 16:34

Thank you, you've been a great help!

Elspeth · Post by **Elspeth** » 18 May 2005, 04:58

Lied wrote:Thank you for the informatiomn I really like the Hypancistrus sp (L260) and (L333), but a boy who I know that has 3 hypancistrus zebra, told me that these fish are even more expensive than the zebra? I think he was talking about the L260.

This may depend on where you are. Here in the USA in general and in my part of it in particular, H. zebra are almost impossible to find and very expensive. L260 are far less expensive and also much more readily obtainable. I now have two L260s... Bellies suggest one male and one female, but only time will tell for certain as my "male" is quite young!

Check fish stores, and maybe one of the PC forum members here knows more about the availability of L260 in the Netherlands. Don't give up on L066 either, such an attractive little fish! Do you ever see L136 etc. there?

And of course... if it's H. zebra you really really want and you can actually *get* H. zebra (you lucky ducky), then H. zebra it is! Invest in good, heavy filtration and only 2 or 3 fish in a species tank, and dream of a colony of, say, 6 in a larger tank "someday!"

kev · Post by **kev** » 18 May 2005, 09:05

i think your friend has got his Hypancistrus mixed up, ive seen on site's L333 for 20euro's so i would'nt think that L260 would be any more. there are a few guy's from your country on this site they would be able to tell you where to get some (i think).

Kev

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 18 May 2005, 10:22

I agree with Kev, someone's got somehting mixed up if they say that L260 or L333 are more expensive than H. Zebra.

H. Zebra is definitely by far the most expensive Hypancistrus on the market. There may be other fish that are close to those prices in other Loricariidae, but the only one I can think of is the almost unobtainable Blue eyed pleco , where if you have a nice one, you can get $500+ for it. And the reason for both of these being very expensive is the same: They are not exported from their native habitat, so any that you find in the trade are either tank-bred, old stock or "previously owned".

Hypancistrus Zebra is not TERRIBLY difficult to breed, but you only get about 15 young in each spawn. It also takes at least three years to grow the fish to the sexual maturity.

I'd love to have some H. Zebra myself, but I know my limitations...

--
Mats

sidguppy · Post by **sidguppy** » 18 May 2005, 11:50

Since she's Dutch she would have to take one look at
http://www.marktplaats.nl
wich is the Dutch marketing site for about anything, from cars to fish.

A search for "Hypancistrus zebra" or "L46" or "zebra" yielded 3 results; cheapest were a few about E250 EACH!
the other one was an adult female wich had a 400euro pricetag........

I know one person from the NVC wich breeds zebra's, called Eelke.
might send her a pm, but IMO fish like that shouldn'r be kept this way.

it's like buying a secondhand 4foot tank and then going for Synodontis granulosus!

Lied · Post by **Lied** » 18 May 2005, 12:24

Well, I'm pretty sure that there are still zebra's of 120 euros a piece here in Holland, on marktplaats.nl are the prices more expensive, same with lizards.I know a shop in Amersfoort,Aqua Ferry Tail, were you can get them for about 120 euros. But if there is any way that I can't get the zebra's, I'll go for the L260 or the L333 IF they are indeed cheaper than the zebra. I hope someone from Holland looks at this topic..

And even if I can get the zebra's for about 120 euros, I'll have to wait a while because first I have to make money! think I begin with my zebra project after the summer, and I don't know if the zebra's are even more expensive, then..

I have one more question, I think I have to sell a few fish that are now in my tank, because I think it gets to full with the zebra's and the zebra's must have their space. But..I am really attached to my ancistrus dolihopterus, a female, and my three corydoras paleatus. Do you think I can keep them with the zebra's? I think that with the ancistrus it's not a problem, the zebra's that I willbuyare youngand just like MatsP mentioned they are after three yars able to breed so I can't get crossings right? And with the corydoras..I wanted to make six of themso that they are in a nice group, but I think it's a bit to full with 2 or 3 zebra's all on the bottem of the tank, what do you guys think?

And does anyone know a tetra species that likes a strong current, just like the zebra? thnx ya all!

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 18 May 2005, 14:06

Lied wrote:Well, I'm pretty sure that there are still zebra's of 120 euros a piece here in Holland, on marktplaats.nl are the prices more expensive, same with lizards.I know a shop in Amersfoort,Aqua Ferry Tail, were you can get them for about 120 euros. But if there is any way that I can't get the zebra's, I'll go for the L260 or the L333 IF they are indeed cheaper than the zebra. I hope someone from Holland looks at this topic..

And even if I can get the zebra's for about 120 euros, I'll have to wait a while because first I have to make money! think I begin with my zebra project after the summer, and I don't know if the zebra's are even more expensive, then..

I have one more question, I think I have to sell a few fish that are now in my tank, because I think it gets to full with the zebra's and the zebra's must have their space. But..I am really attached to my ancistrus dolihopterus, a female, and my three corydoras paleatus. Do you think I can keep them with the zebra's? I think that with the ancistrus it's not a problem, the zebra's that I willbuyare youngand just like MatsP mentioned they are after three yars able to breed so I can't get crossings right? And with the corydoras..I wanted to make six of themso that they are in a nice group, but I think it's a bit to full with 2 or 3 zebra's all on the bottem of the tank, what do you guys think?

And does anyone know a tetra species that likes a strong current, just like the zebra? thnx ya all!

Sidguppy is from Brabant in Holland, if you look a the "Location" next to the name in the posts.

As to your comments/questions:
E120 for a proper Hypancistrus Zebra is definitely a very good price, unless it's extremely small individuals.

Any other Hypancistrus, such as L260 or L333, should be in the E20-50 range (or at least that's the sort of price you pay here in the UK, around 15-40 pounds), depending on availability and size.

Ancistrus species will most likely not cross with Hypancistrus species. So from that perspective, I don't see a reason to evict your current inhabitants. However, I _DO_ agree with SidGuppy that before you spend A LOT of money on a rather special specie of fish, you should consider the ability to "keep them happy". A 70L tank is definitely on the small side...

A Hypancistrus Zebra needs to be about 3 years old before it's sexually mature, yes. At that age, it would be around 7 cm long. They are quite slow growers. However, since you don't know the age of your H. Zebra when you buy them, you can't know when they are going to be sexually mature (they may have stunted growth and turn out to be sexually mature at a smaller size, for instance).

I don't think the Cory's will have a problem with living on the same floorspace as the Zebra's. It's just conspecifics (species that are very similar) the Zebra's that would compete for territory. Males more so than females.

Note also that you need to know the sex of the H. Zebra, they need to be reasonably large (sexually mature), just like it's hard to tell if humans are male or female from the overall body shape until they are about 12 or so, and unfortunately, with H. Zebra (and nearly all other Loricariidae), there's little in the way of difference on the outside of the body when they are young. So if you buy three small ones, you may well end up with three males, or three females. The ideal composition would probably be to have two females and one male.

--
Mats

Lied · Post by **Lied** » 18 May 2005, 16:19

So...I can keep the zebra's with the ancistrus and the cory's and they all will be fine? And how old/large are the zebra's when you can sex them? I wanted to buy then when they were small because they are sexually mature in three years anyway...
Just 2 let you know,I love all my fishes and I allways want them to be happy

no exceptions!

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 18 May 2005, 16:34

According to what I've read, H. Zebra will be sexually mature at a total length of about 7 cm, and that's at about three years of age.

The problem with buying them small is that you don't know what you're buying, and may end up with "the wrong" combination. Worst case is that you get two males and one female, because that will make the males fight like crazy.

Of course, it shouldn't be a problem to sell the spare fish, as they are always wanted. But you may need to separate them before they kill each other, and you may have difficulty finding a "replacement" of the opposite sex, if you're not lucky to find someone who's willing to swap.

I'm sure that you wish your fish to be well, and I'm pretty sure that everyone else has that intention if they are keeping fish (or any other pets). The problem I see is that you're trying to put fish that need quite a bit of space into a small tank. And that works if you are lucky, but if you're not, it may turn sour. With a bigger tank, you have a better chance of getting a happy set of Hypancistrus Zebra.

--
Mats

Lied · Post by **Lied** » 18 May 2005, 22:27

Well I'm a bit confused right now, because according of what you can read in my first post, I asked IF I can keep the zebra's in my tank. Everybody said it's small but its possible and if you provide then with the ideal conditions they should be allright, and now you are saying that it is not possible?

and I already told you, I want to buy them small because when they get bigger I can put them in a bigger tank, to be honest I think 7 centimetres of fish in my tank is a bit too much, especially when there are three fishes of that size that also have a territory ;)that's the reason. And if I end put with more males than females, I'm pretty sure I will find a solution, and when the time maybe comes that the zebra's get older and the males get conflicts, I just put them in a bigger tank with more females ;)or when that is not possible, I'll seperate them untill I find a replacement. I hope you agree with my plans. And btw, I think I'll begin with 2 zebra's first, and I may buy a third one later. In that way I'm sure they have their space. And if 2 zebra's in the shop can get along well, I hope they can get along too in my tank

.

Lied · Post by **Lied** » 20 May 2005, 10:50

anyone...?

bronzefry · Post by **bronzefry** » 20 May 2005, 22:05

Lied,
You've run into the problem we've all faced. Our homes are too small. We aren't wealthy enough. And we need just one more tank. Just one more tank....a little bigger than the last tank. Welcome to the club!!!!

Lied · Post by **Lied** » 21 May 2005, 11:19

Bronzefry wrote:Lied,
You've run into the problem we've all faced. Our homes are too small. We aren't wealthy enough. And we need just one more tank. Just one more tank....a little bigger than the last tank. Welcome to the club!!!!

Hahahah

its just so addictive

bronzefry · Post by **bronzefry** » 21 May 2005, 14:50

Beats some other addictions!