whiptail ID? new information?

JonS · Post by **JonS** » 28 Mar 2005, 17:55

Hi,

Bought a couple of whiptails. Sold as

Sturisoma panamense

One definetly is. The other one is slightly bigger and is a reddy colour (See picture) Sorry about the quality. Hope it gives enough indication. Any ideas what it is?

Could it be this one?

Norman · Post by **Norman** » 29 Mar 2005, 07:15

Hi,

In my opinion this Sturisoma is S.festivum. The shape of the dorsal fin is typical for this species.

Norman

Post by **Janne** » 29 Mar 2005, 19:43

You mean the hook in the end of the dorsal fin, thats make it to a male but the pic is to bad to see what species it's.

Janne

Norman · Post by **Norman** » 29 Mar 2005, 21:10

Hi Janne,

You aren't right. The hook at the end of the dorsal fin isn't a sexual difference.
What i mean is the typical S-Form of the dorsal fin. Only S.festivum has this shape. You can see it better in the glas-mirror at the right of this fish.

regards
Norman

Post by **Janne** » 30 Mar 2005, 19:52

Like this one you mean.

In my males are the dorsal fin more "hooked" on males and even a little more brownish in colour compared to my females but just slightly.
I have never thought on the S shape before and have because of all discussions that have been about Sturisoma never felt sure what species I have.

Janne

Post by **Shane** » 31 Mar 2005, 03:42

Janne,
I can not tell you what spp. you do have, but feel pretty safe saying it is not S. festivum. Why? Because S. festivum comes from a very restricted habitat (Maracaibo basin) where fish sre not exported from.
Permit me a small tangent... Why are there so many Venezuelan scientific names applied to common fish in the hoobby? Becaus H. Axelrod (the Internal Revenue Service's favorite man) did a lot of exporting from there 30 years ago. When these identifications were made they were probably correct. However, Venezuelan exports ceased years ago. That never stopped hobby literature from still calling all twig catfishes Farlowella acus, all bumblebee catfishes Microglanis iheringi, all "S" finned Sturisoma S. festivum, etc, etc. Nevermind that the fishes now in the hobby were coming mainly from Colombia, Peru, and Brazil. The hobby literature just stuck to the names they knew, and for the most part, still does. (On a sad note, the only fish from those days to become established in the hobby was the beautiful diamond tetra, and it only became a hobby staple because it is bred in large numbers on Florida and Asian fish farms).
It should not be that hard to find out where these Sturisoma are coming from, compare them to spp. described from that area, and come up with a likely identification. Of course there is also a chance that the fish in question is not described and we will just have to wait for someone to describe it. Then we will all say, "That is the fish I have had for years."
-Shane

Norman · Post by **Norman** » 31 Mar 2005, 09:56

Hi Janne,

I agree with Shane and say that your Sturisoma isn't S.festivum. The shape and the color of the dorsal fin doesn't match with S.festivum.

even a little more brownish in colour compared to my females

This difference i've also with my Sturisoma festivum and Sturisomatichthys cf. tamanae.

regards
Norman

Post by **Janne** » 31 Mar 2005, 20:16

This I have are imported as S. aureum from Colombia but I cant say what they are, they look close to festivum.
I have starting to collect all kind of spp of this genus and thought I would make a photo collection and put that up in my album later for inspections

Janne

JonS · Post by **JonS** » 31 Mar 2005, 20:49

I've taken a few more shots.

First is of my LDA33 and the two whiptails. (One of which is Sturisoma Panamense)

Better picture of his fin.

and the Sturisoma Panamense

Norman · Post by **Norman** » 01 Apr 2005, 07:40

Hi Jon,

Your S.panamense isn't one.
Here is a real S.panamense. This is the one and only photo in the cat-e-log of an aldult wich shows a S.panamense:

All the others mostly shows S.festivum.

I think both of your Sturisoma are S.festivum just from an other habitat, so color differences are usual.

regards
Norman

JonS · Post by **JonS** » 01 Apr 2005, 08:54

They guy at the shop said one was definetly panamense, could be wrong though.

This are quite a few pics on the main site. You saying these are actually of festivum?

[mod edit: Images removed, as the images linked are no longer what the original poster meant --Mats]

Norman · Post by **Norman** » 01 Apr 2005, 09:34

Hi Jon,

You saying these are actually of festivum?

No, i said mostly.
Especially the first one can be S.aureum. The fin are schmal and straight and the body has fine drawing all over. This characteristics are typical for S.aurum.
The second one could be a S.festivum with a very nice pattern. The fins are larger and bent. Just the dorsal fin looks not realy typical for S.festivum. I think it could be that this Sturisoma is an juvenil S.festivum, wich fins aren't full-blown.
S.panamense has a very large straight fins (especially the dorsal fin), a thin and strung-out body and adults have less contrast in the coloration.
And both of the Sturisoma you shown have not this characteristics.

regards
Norman

JonS · Post by **JonS** » 01 Apr 2005, 12:18

cheers.

So any ideas on how to tell the sex?

Norman · Post by **Norman** » 01 Apr 2005, 12:30

Hi Jon,

Sorry I dont understand your question completely.
Would you like to know the sexual differences ?
The most important difference are the odontodes of male Sturisoma at the sides of their heads. Some species did have this difference just at the spawning season. For example S.aureum.

Attention, in some cases even female Sturisoma have this odontodes, too. Here is an example: Here you can see my old female S.festivum
Up to now, I've seen this just at a few female Sturisoma festivum and at both of my female Sturisomtichthys cf. tamanae.
Males of Sturisoma-Types are often i bit more brownish than females. But this isn't a secure sexual difference.

regards
Norman

JonS · Post by **JonS** » 01 Apr 2005, 12:51

sorry I meant in my two fish - any way to tell what sex they are?

Why are they different colours? You mention they may come from different regions - where about would that be?

Any info would be great.

Norman · Post by **Norman** » 01 Apr 2005, 13:11

Hi Jon,

Ah, sorry. Now I understand your question.

The brownish one can be a male. This fish has very well full-blown odontodes at the head-sides, so what I can see. Females just have a few (if they have it).
The other with the strong contrast in coloration I cannot see any odontodes. The picture isn't so clear. Did he have some ?

Yes, I Think the color differences is a reason of the diffent habitat of this both varieties, from other species a variety in the coloration is known.
But form where they are, I connat say. Nealy 100% of all S.festivum are breedings, at least here in germany. So it is hard to find out from where they are.
If anyone has some wildcaught Sturisoma festivum of different habitats, I would be very interested to find out a bit about the different coloration at the different habitats.

regards
Norman

JonS · Post by **JonS** » 01 Apr 2005, 13:30

Thanks. So possibly Brown is male red is female?

Cool

I'm a little new to some of the terms. What are odontodes?

Anything I'd need to do to make them breed?

This fish has very well full-blown odontodes at the head-sides

Norman · Post by **Norman** » 01 Apr 2005, 14:05

Hi Jon,

So possibly Brown is male red is female?

No, sorry I said it a bit complicated.
I meant the other way round.

What are odontodes?

Puh, in german I can explain it, but in english...
Sturisoma and other loricarin catfishes (like Hemiloricaria) have a beard out of little spikes of skin at their sides of the head.
Other genus have it on their pectorals (like Lamontichthys or Harttia).

Anything I'd need to do to make them breed?

To make them breed isn't hard mostly (if you have both sexes

), but some pairs doesn't harmonize.
But its hard to rear the fry. Often the whole brood dies, without an obvious reason. The best result you will have if you feed a lot of vegetarian food.

regards
Norman

Post by **Janne** » 01 Apr 2005, 19:55

A clear shot of a dorsal fin:

And what makes this species different from S. festivum?
Isn't that so that this species as many others can have a slightly different look depending on sizes and even localities and thats why it makes so hard sometimes to tell them apart, the species on the picture are almost 20 cm TL without filaments and imported from Colombia as S aureum.

Janne

Norman · Post by **Norman** » 01 Apr 2005, 20:19

Hi Janne,

I think I have to revice my statement of yesterday, this photo makes me doubt.
I cannot say exactly what species your Sturisoma belongs. Now I would say that it could be Sturisoma festivum, with an untypical coloration and shape of the dorsal fin. An other point what makes me unshure is the fact that all the fins have no filament (out of the caudal). S.festivum is known for this characteristics.
Up to now I have seen a lot of kinds of S.festivum. It could be that you have an other variant, wich is relative unknown until today. I wouldn't lay down this.

regards

JonS · Post by **JonS** » 02 Apr 2005, 12:38

just had a close look and the reddy coloured one has small odontodes and the brown one doesn't.

Norman · Post by **Norman** » 04 Apr 2005, 07:20

Hi Jon,

So you can originate that the reddy coloured is a male an the other is a female. Good luck for breeding.

regards
Norman

JonS · Post by **JonS** » 04 Apr 2005, 16:42

Hi,

are there any sites with information on breeding this species?

Norman wrote:Hi Jon,

So you can originate that the reddy coloured is a male an the other is a female. Good luck for breeding.

regards
Norman

Norman · Post by **Norman** » 04 Apr 2005, 18:46

Hi Jon,

I am sorry knowing no english page for breeding information.
My page will include this informations, but it is an german and not online up to now.

regards
Norman

JonS · Post by **JonS** » 04 Apr 2005, 20:26

If you have anything in german I'd be interested. Feel free to e-mail it to me if that would be at all possible?

JonS · Post by **JonS** » 04 Apr 2005, 20:39

Hi,

Found some info:

http://www.planetcatfish.com/shanesworld/s_r_273.php

http://www.scotcat.com/articles/article8.html

I also saw this. Looks like my fish??

Sturisomatichthys leightoni

"They were absolutely beautiful, they looked like tiny versions of the Royal Farlowella, Sturisoma panamense"

http://www.scotcat.com/articles/article8.html

Norman · Post by **Norman** » 05 Apr 2005, 06:21

Hi Jon,

In a few weeks, I hope in april, my page will go online.
The url will be http://www.loricariinae.com.

At this time you can find here some informations (even the topic is false named - the pictures shows definitely not S.aureum but S.festivum) http://www.welse.net/SEITEN/sturaur1.htm

Your both fishes aren't species of the genus Sturisomatichthys. All this species of this genus you can devide from Sturisoma by the staight back of Sturisomatichthys and the position and size of the eyes. And of course the size of the specimen (species of Sturisomatichthys will seldom have a size over 17cm. Breedings will be quiet more smaller. Mostly they don't reach a size of 14cm).
Sturisomatichthys is a genus with a few species, which all looks relative similar. It is a very nice and small alternative to the genus Sturisoma.
Mostly S.leightoni-named samples aren't this species. The most are S.sp."Columbia"
Up to now I've 2 species of this genus in my tanks. One time S.cf.tamanae and the other is S.sp."Columbia".
Here is a picture of one of my two S.cf.tamanae females.

regards
Norman

JonS · Post by **JonS** » 05 Apr 2005, 19:35

thanks greatly - much appreciated. If they spawn I'll post pics.

JonS · Post by **JonS** » 25 Apr 2005, 16:08

Just had another close look at the brown of the two.

the top fin isn't curved at the top it's straight, whereas the red one is hooked at the top. Does this indicate anything different to what has already been said?