Catfish suggestions for very large American Cichlid tank?

Rex Karr · Post by **Rex Karr** » 25 Feb 2003, 03:04

I'm hoping to have another very large tank setup within the year. Hopefully around 750g (acrylic), maybe bigger. I'd rather not go as small as 500g though.

The main purpose for this tank is to house a Central American c-i-c-h-l-i-d community. Some of the definant tankmates will be Striped Midas, Tuba, Synspilum, Regani, and Labiatus. These c-i-c-h-l-i-d-s range from the relatively peaceful, to the downright insane, however in tanks of this size, aggression is greatly minimized.

So some of the specifications are

#1: Size; The c-i-c-h-l-i-d-s in this tank will range from 6-14" SL. I'm hopeing to find some catfish that will reach 6"-2' a most.They need to be big enough not to be eaten, but not so big they will eat the others.

#2: Tempement, Hardiness; The catfish species need to be able to handle a mild roughing up by a large sturdy c-i-c-h-l-i-d, but the catfish themselves can't be so aggressive as to injure the c-i-c-h-l-i-d-s. As an example the catfish I currently keep with the juveniles and sub-adults of these types of c-i-c-h-l-i-d-s are Limas, Hoplos, and Synos.

#3: Water conditions; The cats need to be able to thrive in water with a temp of 78-80 and a pH of 7.0-7.8

Other things like needing to feed live foods, cost, and availability are of couse important but not vital (I can easily offer healthy live foods, I don't mind spending a decent amount of money if I really like the fish, and I have several suppliers that can get nearly anything).

Oh, here's a list of fish I'm interested in. Some of these I now will work, others i think probably won't, and then some I really just don't know.

Ageneiosus brevalis
Ageneiosus marmoratus
Ageneiosus sp. "Llanos"
Bagrichthys hypselopterus
Bagrichthys macracanthus
Goslinia platynema
Lophiosilurus alexandri
Tigrinus
Pinirampus pirinampu
Pseudoplatystoma corruscans
Rita gogra
Pseudocanthicus sp. (L025)
Any of the Pangasius species
Brachyplatystoma juruense

Thanks a lot,
Rex

My god, is cichlid a bad word around here? I have to write it like that to keep it form being censored. Hhmm, wonder if I can write characin

Dave Rinaldo · Post by **Dave Rinaldo** » 25 Feb 2003, 03:12

Maybe Cichlidae

Rex Karr · Post by **Rex Karr** » 25 Feb 2003, 04:07

So why is it ok to write cichlidae but not cichlid? What about ciklid or cichliden?

Somebody needs to fix that. Atleast I hope its not intentional.

Rex

Dave Rinaldo · Post by **Dave Rinaldo** » 25 Feb 2003, 04:13

Rex,

It's intentional. This is a catfish forum. Everyone knows what cichlid means as edited. I have 30 tanks and my claim to fame is there is not ONE Cichlidae in my fishroom

Zack · Post by **Zack** » 25 Feb 2003, 05:37

Tigrinus,ornate pim,almost all plecos,lima shovle nose. The possibilitys are endless and its more like you choosing a fish you want than having to pick from a few that will meat the requirements.Good luck.

Post by **Silurus** » 25 Feb 2003, 07:15

These Asian cats won't do:
Bagrichthys hypselopterus
Bagrichthys macracanthus

I have never seen B. hypselopeterus except as very dead fish in markets. From their condition, I'd say the fish die very quickly immediately upon capture (which means they'll never live long enough to make it to your tank). Secondly, their diet (they feed on organic material within very fine mud at the bottom of rivers) is imposible to replicate in an aquarium.

The black lancer (B. macracanthus) is aggressive towards conspecifics but is generally shy towards other fish. Keeping it with robust fish like cichlids will mean that it is likely to get roughed up d fairly often. This will lead to a lot of scratches on its beautiful black skin at the very least, marring its appearance.

RIta gogra is almost never offered in the aquarium trade. Rita rita maybe, but not many of the southern Indian species (of which R. gogra is one) make it to the aquarium trade.

If you want to keep Asian cats in the tank, pick something robust, like a large Horabagrus, Mystus leucophasis or one of the other large Mystus . Pangasius are definitely out, as you'll never be able to provide enough swimming room for any of the species offered in the aquarium trade (the smallest species, P. pangasius reaches a meter in length).

coelacanth · Post by **coelacanth** » 25 Feb 2003, 08:48

[quote="Rex KarrAgeneiosus brevalis
Ageneiosus marmoratus
Ageneiosus sp. "Llanos"
Bagrichthys hypselopterus
Bagrichthys macracanthus
Goslinia platynema
Lophiosilurus alexandri
Tigrinus
Pinirampus pirinampu
Pseudoplatystoma corruscans
Rita gogra
Pseudocanthicus sp. (L025)
Any of the Pangasius species
Brachyplatystoma juruense
[/quote]

OK, let's go through. I don't think any Ageneiosus will do, although predatory they have easily-scratched skin. Same goes for the Brachyplat and the Tigrinus. Pseudoplatystoma get too big for a 750 gallon tank. The pictures I've seen of Rita also suggest this will get too big. NO Pangasius spp. typically available in the trade are suitable for the home aquarium. The other Pims you list I wouldn't include either for various reasons, and the Bagrichthys would think they had been thrown into a pit of Hades.
The L25 should be able to look after itself, one rattle of those fins and I thiink even a male Midas would back off.
What about Rhamdia laticauda? Geographically they are appropriate, and they get too big to be messed with but small enough to get under cover. They have loads of character, and the ones I've seen seem particularly bright for a Pim. I really think they're worth tracking down for a Mesoamerican community, they shouldn't be too expensive and they will grow quickly even if you can only find youngsters.

PeacockBass · Post by **PeacockBass** » 25 Feb 2003, 09:26

i have a list for you to chose from mate..

Leiarius Marmoratas
Leiarius Pictus
Perrunichthys perruno
Pseudodoras niger
Auchenoglanis occidentalis
Megoladoras Irwini
Hemisorubin Platyrhynchos
calophysus macropterus
pimelodus ornatus
pimelodus blochii
pimelodus maculatus
any of the Clarias

thats not even all either lol

most of these fish are readily avalible at any respectable LFS...

good luck..

personaly i would get an Leiarius Pictus. or P. ornatus..

Rex Karr · Post by **Rex Karr** » 25 Feb 2003, 14:36

Ok, but it still doens't make any sense to sensor cicklid. I certainly don't plan to sensor c*****h on my cicklid forum. oh well

Thanks for all the help. This gives me a better idea of which fish will and which won't work. But, does anyone have anything to say about the Pinirampus pirinampu? That is one really like.

Thanks
Rex

Caol_ila · Post by **Caol_ila** » 25 Feb 2003, 15:07

Hi!

At the local zoo they have sailfins with big cichlids. Some G.gibbiceps i think. I wondered if A.adonis would do under these conditions?

Guy · Post by **Guy** » 25 Feb 2003, 16:26

I used to have a big sailfin in with my central American c*****ds. They lived together amicably until any of the c*****ds decided to start breeding, then the poor old sailfin would have his fins munched to tatters. The c*****ds just had to go

Guy

Sid Guppy · Post by **Sid Guppy** » 25 Feb 2003, 17:29

Can you tell us exactly WICH SPECIES of cichlidae we're talking about here?
I've got plenty experience with them (not as much as with catfish, but close) and they differ as widely as catfish when it comes to social behaviour.
Oscars for example; most people seem to think it is a terror on any cat, but that's only when both are kept in a too small tank. Oscars combine great with easygoing fish like moderately big Pimelodids, for example; but one needs to setup a 200G tank at least to do this properly.

Further on: I would ALWAYS stay "on continent"; fish seem to recognize other species from their habitat, and combinations from one habitat almost always work out much better than mixing continents.
So putting African (not to mention Asians!! NO Asian catfish should be kept with ANY cichlid: period!) catfishes in with South American cichlidaespecies isn't OK IMO.

Next: don't put in species that are 'too slow' when it comes to feeding OR feed enough! (I learned this when keeping Sorubims with other big eaters; Sorubims are slow and shy; they can starve to death when kept with voracious fish). And an extra feedingtime in the wee-hours for the catfish is essential.
Cavedwelling cichlids can only be kept with cavedwelling catfish when there are PLENTY caves; especially Doradids and Auchenipterids can get mauled badly, during the day, when trying to hide in a spot chosen by breeding fish. They won't leave that cave, and rely on their armour or slime and spines, and stay in place while their fins are ripped off....
Some fish are excellent company for moderate to big catfish; especially in an indoor pond, like you're planning: Crenicichla, Geophagus, Aequidens, Uaru, Astronotus etc.
I wouldn't put in Lophiocyclurus alexandri in with those fish; it can swallow prey up to 20 cm big fish and more, when adult....

Rex Karr · Post by **Rex Karr** » 25 Feb 2003, 18:31

SG_Eurystomus wrote:Can you tell us exactly WICH SPECIES of cichlidae we're talking about here?
I've got plenty experience with them (not as much as with catfish, but close) and they differ as widely as catfish when it comes to social behaviour.
Oscars for example; most people seem to think it is a terror on any cat, but that's only when both are kept in a too small tank. Oscars combine great with easygoing fish like moderately big Pimelodids, for example; but one needs to setup a 200G tank at least to do this properly.

I can't say for sure which cicklids in my collection will be moved over to the new tank, or which new cicklids I will buying. But likely canidates include

Amphilophus citrinellus - Striped Midas
Amphilophus citrinellus - Gold Midas
Amphilophus labiatus - Red Devil
Tilapia Buttikoferi
Tomocichla tuba
Vieja bifasciatus
Vieja fenestratus
Vieja maculicauda
Vieja regani
Vieja synspilum
Vieja zonatum

Further on: I would ALWAYS stay "on continent"; fish seem to recognize other species from their habitat, and combinations from one habitat almost always work out much better than mixing continents.
So putting African (not to mention Asians!! NO Asian catfish should be kept with ANY c*****d: period!) catfishes in with South American cichlidaespecies isn't OK IMO.

We're talking about Central Americans here. Although that doens't change anything in your oppinion, I know.

Next: don't put in species that are 'too slow' when it comes to feeding OR feed enough! (I learned this when keeping Sorubims with other big eaters; Sorubims are slow and shy; they can starve to death when kept with voracious fish). And an extra feedingtime in the wee-hours for the catfish is essential.
Cavedwelling c*****ds can only be kept with cavedwelling catfish when there are PLENTY caves; especially Doradids and Auchenipterids can get mauled badly, during the day, when trying to hide in a spot chosen by breeding fish. They won't leave that cave, and rely on their armour or slime and spines, and stay in place while their fins are ripped off....[

I currently keep Sorubim lima in a 125g with Midas, Zonatum, Severum, and Nigrofasciatum. My Limas are not shy in the least. In fact, I have problems with them getting all of the Midas's food.

Some fish are excellent company for moderate to big catfish; especially in an indoor pond, like you're planning: Crenicichla, Geophagus, Aequidens, Uaru, Astronotus etc.
I wouldn't put in Lophiocyclurus alexandri in with those fish; it can swallow prey up to 20 cm big fish and more, when adult....

This will be an acrylic tank not a pond.

Thanks
Rex

Post by **Shane** » 25 Feb 2003, 18:36

Rex,
A bit off topic, but you might note that the American Cichlidiot Association refuses to list catfishes in their publications, shows, and auctions under any name other than "scavengers." They started it, but its all good natured.
-Shane

Rex Karr · Post by **Rex Karr** » 25 Feb 2003, 19:21

Shane wrote:Rex,
A bit off topic, but you might note that the American Cichlidiot Association refuses to list catfishes in their publications, shows, and auctions under any name other than "scavengers." They started it, but its all good natured.
-Shane

No I haven't noticed. I'm not a member.

Its fine for someone to only keep one family of fish if they want to. But I really do think its ridiculous for someone to look down on other families of fish, and to sensor the name.

And I don't really see how limiting the species you keep to not include cicklids is a claim to fame.

I'm sorry but this is really pissing me off. Why is it that everyone is prejudice against cicklids?

Rex Karr · Post by **Rex Karr** » 25 Feb 2003, 19:24

And why is it ok to write cichlidae? Somebody really needs to explain this. Cichlid keepers in general to NOT look down on catfish. In fact, they often own just as many catfish species of cichlids.

Dave Rinaldo · Post by **Dave Rinaldo** » 25 Feb 2003, 19:42

Rex Karr wrote:And why is it ok to write cichlidae? Somebody really needs to explain this.

WHY?!

Jools?

Sid Guppy · Post by **Sid Guppy** » 25 Feb 2003, 21:43

Rex; had I known that you mentioned CENTRAL Americans I WOULD have changed my suggestions by a mile!!
These are much more aggressive in general, and many catfishes that do well with true South Americans are literally ripped to pieces when kept with "formerly known as Cichlasoma's"....

For your list I would suggest; stay away from all:
-Auchenipterids
-Doradids
-big Callichthydae like Hoplo's (tank is too deep anyway, these breathe air)
-Loriicarinae (Sturisoma's etc)
-Pseudopimelodids
-Ageneiosus species

I named it "pond" just for sheer size...

Actually I'm quite surprised to hear Sorubims do well with the mentioned species; must be the tanksize; most people keep such fish in -too- "small" tanks, I was thinking about Pimelodus and such.
Already mentioned; but if they're available; the Central American Rhamdia species are well up to the challenge as they're "used" to live among those species of cichlidae.

For what it's worth: IME and IMO Amphilophus are among the most 'nasty' Central Americans, esp citrinellum; I wouldn't keep any Doradid with those.
Tilapia is a bit strange in that list; buttikofferi is another temperamental fish that should get tankmates like Synodontis schall and the like; if you want to go 'off continent' ; THAT's one catfish that IS up to the challenge. In a tank the size of that, you might even keep a group of them, something not advised in anything smaller.
This brings another overlooked cat in the picture, it's not on your list either: Synodontis angelicus!

Post by **Dinyar** » 25 Feb 2003, 21:44

Personally, I think this **c***d stuff is a bit juvenile myself. It's one of those supposedly "cool" features of a lot of bulletin board software that people feel they have to find a way to use somehow, like peppering smileys everywhere.

A lot of people who keep cichlids and hang out on the cichlid forums do seem to be lacking in basic fish keeping knowledge. But just because they think of catfish as "scavengers" doesn't mean we have to reciprocate by censoring them.

But what the hell, if people want to use

to replace w**ds and c**sor liberally, who am I to stand in the way of post-linguistic communication?

Dinyar

Post by **Shane** » 25 Feb 2003, 23:38

Rex,
No reason to get angry over the cichlid thing as it is just a joke (perhaps juvenile as Dinyar pints out), but all in good fun. I would also venture to say that many catfish people got their start on the cichlid side of the hobby and moved on to catfishes for a number of reasons. Not to knock cichlidae (which I find very fascinating) but with catfishes we are talking about circa 35 families of fishes found on every continent but Antarctica where as the cichlidae is only one family with few representatives outside middle and South America and Africa. I think people are also attracted to the fact that there is far less known about catfish husbandry and captive spawning. Let's face it, most cichlids imported for the hobby from the African Rift lakes and Central America will spawn if they are kept wet long enough, but even the simplest catfishes to spawn (say Corydoras) can require lots of work through water changes, temperature variations, etc. If anything, I think that the kidding is a sign of respect between the two "cliques" as they are both nuts, with good reason, about the fishes they keep. Actually, I just looked in my fishroom and realized that in my 17 tanks they only non-catfishes are three hatchet tetras. Perhaps the next time I am out collecting I'll bring back some rams or Apistos. Good luck with your tank, I am sure it will be a site to behold when you are finished.
-Shane

Rex Karr · Post by **Rex Karr** » 26 Feb 2003, 00:23

The Rhamdia species seem to be suggested by several. Can anyone provide info and pictures of the one species mentioned along with the others that would make suitable tankmates? Also is there a place where these can be easily obtained in the US? And what is the going price?

Maybe I did take it to seriously. Sorry if I got upset to easily. There maybe a lot more species of catfish, spread over a greater area, but there are still around 2000 species of cichlids. Which is plenty enough for me

One thing that attracts me to cichlids is the rapid sympatric speciation that is taking place in most of the Nicaraguan crater lakes with the "Midas Complex". Although I love cichlids, I don't limit myself to them. As you can see I'm hoping to branch off with some interesting catfish species.

Thanks
Rex

Post by **Dinyar** » 26 Feb 2003, 00:37

We should really split this off into a new topic, since we are WAY off topic on the original thread, but to make one last comment about keeping "catfish only":

I did this for most of my fish keeping career. Now I find it more interesting to recreate aquatic biotopes in some semblance of the diversity found in nature. Where in the world would you find an aquatic environment that contained only say catfish?

Dinyar

Post by **Silurus** » 26 Feb 2003, 00:39

Rex,

I have a pair of Rhamdia laticauda. Check out the notes I have on keeping these fish in my forum postings.
I think there are also pics available from the Cat-eLog there.
They are among two of my best-loved cats. Very inquisitive and smart fish.

PeacockBass · Post by **PeacockBass** » 26 Feb 2003, 07:10

i am still firm on my list.. i have kept most of the cich8ds listed that will be in this tank with most of the fish i listed...

the only problem is feeding... its hard to get food to some of the more Shy catfish like the Giraffe and the doradids...

good luck..

i allso dont like this cichlid crap.

Rex Karr · Post by **Rex Karr** » 26 Feb 2003, 13:27

Thanks for the link Silurus. Does anybody know how much these run for?

PeacockBass, can you post pictures of your Niger, Marmoratus, and others?

jscoggs27 · Post by **jscoggs27** » 26 Feb 2003, 16:33

were not, its suposed to be funny!

incidently no one says ple*o either.
jason

Sid Guppy · Post by **Sid Guppy** » 26 Feb 2003, 19:07

Yeah, but was it Pleco or Ple*o?

PeacockBass · Post by **PeacockBass** » 27 Feb 2003, 21:45

yea rex ill get you some pics in a little bit...

i need to do something.. but when i have time ill get you pics.

Tom · Post by **Tom** » 27 Feb 2003, 21:58

Tilapia buttikoferi is not Central American - it's West African. But more importantly the bigger it gets the nastier it gets. I wouldn't include in that setup.

Rex Karr · Post by **Rex Karr** » 28 Feb 2003, 02:55

Tom wrote:Tilapia buttikoferi is not Central American - it's West African. But more importantly the bigger it gets the nastier it gets. I wouldn't include in that setup.

Yeah, I know its west African. But its prefered water conditions, size, and attitude make it well suited to a Central American Ciklid community.

I really don't know how much experiance all of you have with cichlids, but most here seen to think most of the fish I listed will be killers. While in reality cichlids are only aggressive for territorial reasons. Meaning in a 55g, 2 cichlids, we'll say Buttikoferi, will dismantle each other very quickly. In a 125g, the same will happen. In a 300g the fish will live in near peace, in a 500g the fish will live in almost complete peace aside from a few bouts every once in a while.

I have every fish that I listed earlier (aside from the Regani which are only 1.5" and in a different tank) together in a 500g tank. The fish live very peacefully and there is even a small lima, a zamora wood cat, and a brown wood cat in this tank. Cichlids usually ignore non-cichlids. So I seriously doubt there will be to much aggression between either the cichlids or the cichlids and catfish.

thanks

Catfish suggestions for very large American Cichlid tank?

Catfish suggestions for very large American Cichlid tank?

Re: Catfish suggestions for very large American c*****d tank

buttikoferi

Re: buttikoferi