Gold Nugget, Faded Colors.

elekamit · Post by **elekamit** » 27 Jan 2005, 15:42

I have recieved a 17cm gold nugget a week ago.
I have a chichlid aquarium.
4 demasoni
4 electric yellow
4 ice blu (skolopi albino)

I have also reshaped my entire structure to give it more hiding places.

I have noticed that it's colors are faded, What can i do about it?
I gave it a week becaue i thought maybe it's because of stress, but an entire week has passed.

i dunno what to do, i think this is not normal
also, he isn't eating much

Thanks

p.s.
here is a recent picture of him:

http://grm.m.walla.co.il/briefcase/00f3 ... CT0017.jpg

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 27 Jan 2005, 15:50

Picture doesn't look particularly faded to me, but that could be the picture...

These fishes will take some time to settle in and become "at home" in their new environment. Maybe you just need to give it some time.

What are you feeding it?

It will want some protein as well as some vegetable matter. (Maybe wafers/pellets targeted for Cory's are suitable, but the Cat-eLog mentions frozen bloodworms and prawns).

What are the water parameters?

--
Mats

elekamit · Post by **elekamit** » 27 Jan 2005, 15:55

well, the water is excelent, 0 amonia, 0 nitrit, 0 nitrat.
and i change 20% of the tank's water 2 times a week.

I fed it JBL PLECOCHIPS on sunday, and a piece of cucumber on wednsday.

about bloodworms, i don't think it will be good for the other fish, 4 salesmen at 4 different fish stores have told me not to give my chichlids bloodworms.

and it is very faded, look at the spots, they are supposed to be yellow!

Tristan · Post by **Tristan** » 27 Jan 2005, 16:18

The sales men at the shops were right to an extent as the malawi cichlids are not too well adapted to digesting high protein foods as they predominantly graze algae from rocks etc. I do, however feed sparing amounts of bloodworm to my malawi community tank and they eat it with relish. I think that as long as you do not put too much in there at a time you should be ok.

My only thought is that the malawis would out-compete thenugget on the food stakes as they are not generally teh quickest of fish (mine gets beaten to the food by the discus on a regular basis). - Just a thought

BTW, I don't think that your fish looks too faded, i have found with them that their juvenile colours can be stronger anyway. Hope this helps

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 27 Jan 2005, 16:31

elekamit wrote:well, the water is excelent, 0 amonia, 0 nitrit, 0 nitrat.
and i change 20% of the tank's water 2 times a week.

I fed it JBL PLECOCHIPS on sunday, and a piece of cucumber on wednsday.

about bloodworms, i don't think it will be good for the other fish, 4 salesmen at 4 different fish stores have told me not to give my chichlids bloodworms.

and it is very faded, look at the spots, they are supposed to be yellow!

Ok, so first of all, there are (according to Janne for instance) more than the three reported types of Gold Nugget, depending on exactly where they are caught, and they all have slightly different combinations of colour, so I'm not entirely convinced that yours may not have a "whiter" yellow spot than some other kinds. There are some pictures (particularly the one on L81) that show whiter spots than some of the other pictures which show light yellow spots.

And I think Tristan is on right track, different age Gold Nuggets are likely to look different, so if yours is younger than the one(s) on the picture(s) you compare to, that may explain the "brighter", "more striking" or "sharper" [use whatever term you like] colouring. That is certainly true for some other Loricariids that I know well, such as Ancistrus and Scobinancistrus.

I'd say that a "bigger contrast" in colour isn't a sign of something being wrong, but rather that the fish is healthy and happy.

I'm not an expert on malawi (or other) cichlids, but I guess it's a problem feeding one type of fish one type of food, and another type of fish another type of food, especially when one is quite quick and agressive in it's search for food, whilst the other is quite shy and reserved in it's hunt for food.

--
Mats

elekamit · Post by **elekamit** » 27 Jan 2005, 16:39

Ok, about feeding, I feed my goldnugget in the night, when all the other fish are sleeping, so it is the only one awake.
also, a concern, I have noticed redness on the tips of both it's fins.
what can i do to heal this?

Post by **Barbie** » 27 Jan 2005, 17:09

0 nitrates are impossible to have on a mature system without constant large water changes or a fully planted system that your malawi's would be making into a snack bar.... You might want to look into some new test kits, or try the tests over again, also.

The redness sounds like damage from his tankmates, IMO. You might give him more decor to hide in and around, or a cave where he can barely fit in and block the entrance.

Barbie

elekamit · Post by **elekamit** » 27 Jan 2005, 17:24

Well, i do have plants, i don't remember their names. and the nitrat is 0, believe me.

as for the redness, i got him that way, and i thought it was from other fish as well, but a week has passed and it's still there, what can it be?
and is there a medicin i can give him for that?

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 27 Jan 2005, 17:36

It may be that your testkit shows 0, but I believe Barbie is right that it's impossible to have absolutely zero Nitrats unless you've got LOTS of plants in the tank, and plants that grow quite a lot too.

You may have very LOW nitrates, which is good.

As to the redness of the fins, I'm just wondering why you think this is something that needs "treatment". Are you sure that your individual fish isn't born with red fins?

Is the fish showing any other signs of not being well (inactivity, heavy breathing, "itching", or some such)? If not, I'd wait and see.

--
Mats

elekamit · Post by **elekamit** » 27 Jan 2005, 18:34

mmmmm..., he is VERY inactive!!!, stays at the same spot most of the day, and at night he doesn't even touch the food i give him.

about heavy brething..., how can i know if he is heavy breathing?

plus the redness doesn't look like a fin color, it looks more like a wound.

Post by **Janne** » 27 Jan 2005, 21:38

If you mean the light red colour on the hard ray of the pectoral fin...it's a sign that he not feels good.
If you keep a "pleco" in bad water quality for a while...even a short time is the first you will notise that the hard ray of the pectoral fin turns red...the darker the worse. I think this is a sign of high or raised level of nitrogen in the blood and they start to breath a little faster...I say I think because I have not any possibilitys to measure their blood.
This could have been happen before you recive the fish and it will disapear after some time if you keep him in a better water quality that he had earlier. If it's this...your fish will be a little slow and lost the appetite until it feels better.

If you have plants in your tank...they will not grow without any nitrate if you not feed them regulary with this, it's like Barbie say...it's impossible to have 0 nitrate and you need a new test kit.
There are many test kits on the market and no one shows the same...some better then other and if you use multisticks...they are really bad.

Janne

elekamit · Post by **elekamit** » 28 Jan 2005, 03:53

ok, and is there anything i can do to make him feel any better?

Post by **Barbie** » 28 Jan 2005, 04:40

A quarantine tank would have been a great idea before he was already added. It wouldn't hurt anything now, for that matter. 30% water changes won't hurt the main tank and can definitely help if it's a water quality issue. The caves and redecoration I recommended might also make a big difference for him. If his stomach doesn't look hollow, whether he's eating or not will be the least of your worries if the redness in his finnage is actually from damage from the cichlids.

Barbie

PlecoCrazy · Post by **PlecoCrazy** » 28 Jan 2005, 05:48

I have never had a gold nugget with persistent faded colors that wasn't on death's door. Low DO can sometimes be a problem with them, increase your aeration and/or maybe add an airstone. Gold nuggets has been one of the hardest plecos I buy to keep alive. Once they're settled in they seem fairly hardy but getting them settled in has always been a challenge for me. Good luck.

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 28 Jan 2005, 10:13

i presume the water in your malawi tank is very hard with a pH at about 8.

although nuggets will acclimate to this eventually, i think it could account for it being off colour.

they prefer very soft slightly acid water.

was it the same colour in the store?

here is a kind of general checklist for most plecos happiness.

is nitrogenous pollution low?
is the water soft?
is the water slightly acid?
is there plenty of oxygen available?
is there plenty of current?
is there enough dark hiding places away from other fish?
is it getting enough food?
is it getting the right kind of food?
does it have enough room?

if you can provide all these things, then your pleco will probably be happy.

elekamit · Post by **elekamit** » 28 Jan 2005, 14:27

So, here are my answers, and some of the things i don't know because this is my first tank ever, abd it's only 3 weeks old:

is nitrogenous pollution low? - how do i check?
is the water soft? - how do i check?
is the water slightly acid? - how do i check?
is there plenty of oxygen available? - Yes
is there plenty of current? - If currents mean the movement of the water, then i have none.
is there enough dark hiding places away from other fish? - YES
is it getting enough food? - YES
is it getting the right kind of food? - YES
does it have enough room? - YES

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 28 Jan 2005, 15:03

elekamit wrote:So, here are my answers, and some of the things i don't know because this is my first tank ever, abd it's only 3 weeks old:

is nitrogenous pollution low? - how do i check?
is the water soft? - how do i check?
is the water slightly acid? - how do i check?
is there plenty of oxygen available? - Yes
is there plenty of current? - If currents mean the movement of the water, then i have none.
is there enough dark hiding places away from other fish? - YES
is it getting enough food? - YES
is it getting the right kind of food? - YES
does it have enough room? - YES

If your tank is about 3 weeks after setup, then it's still maturing (especially if you do 40% water changes every week). A new tank needs to build up the bacteria necessary to take care of the fishes "byproducts". This is done by holding a few fish that are fairly tolerant (hardy) fish in the tank, and letting the levels of ammonia and nitrite rise in the tank. This will make the fish feel uncomfortable (stressed), but unfortunately is the only way to make these friendly bacteria grow in the tank. Once you've got the bacteria established in the tank, you can start adding more fish and should start replacing the water.

Nitrogenous pollution = Nitrate levels (and ammonia and nitrite levels). So you've tried to answer this, but I don't believe you've got a test-kit that is accurate, or you're at the start of maturing the tank [in which case you should have nitrite and/or ammonia levels that are higher than 0].

The water hardness can be tested with a test-kit, or if you haven't done anything to the water from the tap, you should be able to ask the water supplier what the water hardness is out of the tap. Malawi ciclids need HARD water, whilst most Loricariids (such as Gold Nugget Pleco's) want soft water. The hardness of the water is a measure of certain types of salts (the main component in hardness is usually calcium carbonate) in the water that is dependant on the source of the water. Soft water has low content of these salts, and hard water has high content. There are test-kits you can buy to test the water, but if you just use tap-water, you can probably just ask your water supplier to give you the number for your area.

pH (acidity) is a simple test that you should be able to buy a relatively inexpensive test-kit for. Acid water has lower pH than 7, and alkalic water has a higher value. 7 is "Neutral" water, i.e. it's neither acidic nor alkalic. Normally, the Malawi's like Alkalic water, and most loricariids live in slightly acidic water. [The pH scale is a logarithmic scale, which means that a change of +1 or -1 on the scae means 10 times more or less on a linear scale. So a pH of 6 is 10 times more acid than neutral, and a pH of 5 is 100 times more acid than neutral].

You can't really say 'Yes' to "is there plenty of oxygen available" without a complicated measurement of the "dissolved oxygen". This is not something you just buy a cheap kit in the fish-shop, unfortunately. So please explain what you do to oxygenate the water. If you have a bubble-stone, then that's pretty good, especially one of those that are 15-20cm long. But bubbles going through the water isn't really the point. It's the surface of the tank that is the best surface for gas-exchange (CO2 to the air and O2 into the water). So if the surface of the tank is "moving" a lot, that's good, because it will help replacing the oxygen in the water more rapidly than a still surface.

By current, I'm pretty sure the original poster meant circulation of water in the tank. Somehing like a filter system that circulates the water in the tank, or just a "powerhead", i.e. a small pump that takes in water on one side and out the other. I think both your Malawis and the Gold Nugget will like one of these, and they are not incredibly expensive. It will not only help the water circulation itself, but it will help the oxygenation of the water as well.

I hope this helps.

--
Mats

elekamit · Post by **elekamit** » 28 Jan 2005, 15:45

ok, so as for water circulation, I have an external filter 600 Litters per hour, that takes the water from 1 end and pours it out the other.

as for oxygen, I have a Stone that is connected to a power supply, it is at the bottom of the tank, and it send bubbles to the surface that when explode mix the water with oxygen (correct me if i'm wrong). And it blows a lot of bubbles, and I mean a LOT!!!

as for amonia and nitrit, When I put my first 4 fish (demasoni) in the tank, a few days later I had the largest amount of nitrit according to the test, I use sera tests.
I asked a sales men in a fish store what can i do about it, and he said, just change a lot of water..., so I changed the water twice a day 30%.
about a week later, My amonia and nitrit levels were down to 0. and have been 0 since.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 28 Jan 2005, 16:01

elekamit wrote:ok, so as for water circulation, I have an external filter 600 Litters per hour, that takes the water from 1 end and pours it out the other.

Ok, that should create some circulation. Obviously depends on the size of the tank, but it should be OK for a tank up to about 200-300L as long as you don't have A LOT of fish in there.

elekamit wrote:as for oxygen, I have a Stone that is connected to a power supply, it is at the bottom of the tank, and it send bubbles to the surface that when explode mix the water with oxygen (correct me if i'm wrong). And it blows a lot of bubbles, and I mean a LOT!!!

Well, even tho' an airstone blows lots of bubbles through the water, it's not that efficient in exchanging gas between the bubble and the water that is around the bubble. However, the airstone will create a surface movement, which _IS_ a good way to exchange oxygen with the water. Obviously, the bubbles will also help, but this is really not the biggest factor....
Let's do some math: Assume that the average bubble is about 5mm, and it takes 1s to rise, it will have a surface area of about 60mm2 [or something like that], whilst a fish-tank of 1000m long and 300mm wide will have a surface area of 300000mm2 and contact with the air for maybe a minute before it's turned "back down" into the lower layer of the tank. So you have something in contact with the water for 60mm2*1s->60mm2s, and some other 300000mm2*60s->1.8 million mm2s. So you need about 30000 air bubbles per minute to amount to the same air-exchange as the surface of the tank. That is an awful lot of bubbles...

elekamit wrote:as for amonia and nitrit, When I put my first 4 fish (demasoni) in the tank, a few days later I had the largest amount of nitrit according to the test, I use sera tests.
I asked a sales men in a fish store what can i do about it, and he said, just change a lot of water..., so I changed the water twice a day 30%.
about a week later, My amonia and nitrit levels were down to 0. and have been 0 since.

Not sure if this means that your tank is matured, or if it means that you're just constantly exchanging enough water to keep the levels low... I haven't heard of the "exchange water a lot" method of maturing a tank, and if it really did work like that, I would have thought that the fish-shops wouldn't put pleco's and gold-fish as "maturing-fish" in their tanks for a few weeks when they changed filter systems... Admittedly, it's quite time-consuming to do daily exchanges of 30% water on a large number of tanks, but it doesn't do for good business to only have half the tanks available for sale for a few of weeks too...

--
Mats

elekamit · Post by **elekamit** » 28 Jan 2005, 16:20

well..., my tank is only about 105 Litters...
It's measures are 80 cm length, 40 cm height, and 35 depth
and it's panoramic.

here is a picture of it:

http://grm.m.walla.co.il/briefcase/00f3 ... CT0001.jpg

http://grm.m.walla.co.il/briefcase/00f3 ... CT0003.jpg

http://grm.m.walla.co.il/briefcase/00f3 ... CT0004.jpg

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 28 Jan 2005, 16:41

Ok, so we can probably rule out low oxygen, as you should have pretty good circulation in the tank, plus an air-stone to add some movement to the water.

I'd say that the most likely reason for the fish being stressed, is that it's quite hard water/high pH. It looks like you have some sort of corall sand in there, which I would think makes the water hard and alkalic, which is what you want for your Malawi's. Unfortunately, that's also exactly what your gold nugget DOESN'T want. It should be OK with that sort of water if you let it gradually get used to it, maybe over a few weeks. But if you just plop a low pH fish in a high pH environment, that's not going to be the best for the fish, that's for certain.

--
Mats

elekamit · Post by **elekamit** » 28 Jan 2005, 16:47

it's not sand, it's actually little plastic gravel...
it just looks like sand..., which is why i bought it

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 28 Jan 2005, 16:57

Ok, so what remains is:
1. to get a correct reading for your Nitrate (it should NOT be zero, but it shouldn't be more than about 25 ppm (ppm = mg/l) either).

2. measure the pH. Buy a test-kit for this, because you'll probably need it in the future too.

3. measure the hardness (or conductivity, which will be an indication towards the hardness) of the water, or check with your water supplier what hardness the water is.

In the mean time, keep changing the water to make sure there's no build-up of nitrates.

--
Mats

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 28 Jan 2005, 17:11

those rocks in there are definately calcereous (makes the water go hard and alkaline) so this may well be the cause of the problem.

your nugget may get used to it. it will depend on the hardness and pH of the water at the fish store. find this out if you can.

as far as ammonia, nitrite and nitrate go's. keep testing every day. stop changing the water. only change water if you get a reading of ammonia or nitrite. don't worry about nitrates (but keep testing)

sorry, don't mean to contradict you matsp. just my opinion.

good luck.

elekamit · Post by **elekamit** » 28 Jan 2005, 17:16

are u sure not to change water?
i heard it's good for the fish to change as much water as i can

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 28 Jan 2005, 17:21

as far as ammonia, nitrite and nitrate go's. keep testing every day. stop changing the water. only change water if you get a reading of ammonia or nitrite. don't worry about nitrates (but keep testing)

If we agree that it's an over-simplification of "Ignore nitrates", yes I agree to that in general. As long as the nitrates don't go too high (above 25 ppm), they can be ignored. And nitrite or ammonia is obviously bad, so require water change.

--
Mats

elekamit · Post by **elekamit** » 28 Jan 2005, 17:30

ok, so i will go and but a new nitrate test and i will test
as for the redness on the tips of his fins, what can i do?

and also, i have some algae on a lot of rocks but he is not eating at all..., sick maybe?

Post by **Barbie** » 28 Jan 2005, 17:32

While changing water may slow down the cycling process by a few days as you remove the waste the bacteria is using to build big strong colonies, the benefits to the fish of removing that toxic waste far outweigh the hurrying ahead factor, IMO. If you have access to a store that sells BioSpira, you should rush right out and buy some, IMO. It actually worked as stated when I test drove it. I was impressed. If that is unavailable to you, try to find someone with an established tank that would give you filter media from it, or even rinse their filter media into a bag of water for you to add to your tank. That will aid in jumpstarting the biobed also.

I regularly change 30-50% of the water in my tanks. Usually at least once a week, in some, as often as once a day if I'm trying to get fish to grow faster. Water changes don't hurt your fish in any way. You just have to keep in mind that if you suddenly stop doing them, you need to reduce what you feed. Your bacteria colonies grow to a size where they can support the regular load they bear, and that will change if you stop doing frequent water changes.

With that said, Pseudotrohpeus demasoni in a tank less than 30 gallons is a recipe for disaster, IMO. While they don't get as big as others of the same complex, they more than make up for that with aggression. It's been my experience that the only way to negate some of that behavior is to keep 15 or more together. That's not going to be an option for you, and the dominant male is going to gradually pick off all of the subdominant fish, females included. Whoever recommended those fish for that tank needs to have their head examined, IMO. Pseudo. saulosi maybe, or even some yellow labs and a single male lwanda peacock, but demasoni?

Barbie

elekamit · Post by **elekamit** » 28 Jan 2005, 17:53

ok, the reason they recomended me the demasoni is because they are very little, 1-2 cm, and because i have them while they are small they will grow timid.

and what is BioSpira?

Post by **Barbie** » 28 Jan 2005, 18:13

They might be timid right now, but in a matter of months they're going to be pretty blue killing machines. I'm speaking from experience. I've kept them off and on for years. They look great, too bad they aren't easy to keep on top of that!

BioSpira is a bacteria jumpstart that's available in the US. I have no idea if it's even available outside the country though.

Barbie

Gold Nugget, Faded Colors.

Gold Nugget, Faded Colors.

well

Re: well

Ok

well...

mmmm

ok

ok

Re: ok

ok

Re: ok

k

its not sand...

are u sure?

ok

ok