help me choose a catfish

MyraVan · Post by **MyraVan** » 29 Dec 2004, 11:46

I have a 24" (20 Am. Gal, 75l) planted tank that I set up towards the end of September. It is unheated. I would like to keep it that way, as heaters do nasty things to fish when they go wrong. The tank temp ranges between 20-21C (68-70F).

It currently has 4 zebra danios and 2 rosy barbs, a male and a female. I'll be adding another female rosy barb soon, as I think they'd be happier with another one around.

I think I've got some space for some more small fish, and I would like them to be catfish. What would you suggest? The main contraints are that it has to be happy at the temp of my tank, it has to stay small, and it has to be compatible with my other fish.

Ideally, it would be an algae eater. There isn't that much algae in the tank - I seem to have got past the phase where it seemed like brown algae would take over the tank - but it would be nice to have some fish to help keep it down. On the other hand, cory cats are awfully cute.

This month's catfish of the month article got me thinking that maybe an otocinclus niger (Hisonotus leucofrenatus) would be just the thing. Also some of the Chaetostoma might work. Any other ideas?

pturley · Post by **pturley** » 29 Dec 2004, 15:08

Myra actually emailed me this question directly: My reply is Quoted Below:

I would think they would be just about ideal. They are passable at eating algae, but given their small size you'll need a reasonable sized group (8 or so).

Per the article I'd be very curious as to their reproductive proclivity and longevity in a cooler aquarium.
BTW: With a bit of current, Cheatostoma would be another option for a cooler tank, but they wouldn't be compatable with the Hisonotus (too aggresive, too effiecient at algae eating). You'd need to feed them fairly heavily to keep them fit. Also, I am not sure about Chaetostoma causing
damage to fine leaved plants. Hisonotus would be no problem at all.

Why didn't you post this in the PC Forums? It's really a great group of people that are certainly willing to help. BTW: I am a moderator there.

Sincerely,
Paul E. Turley

Actually, on reading that your tank is only a 20 gallon (not sure if I overlooked this in my previous reply?), you may want to restrict yourself to just 6 Hisonotus and possibly skip the third barb, otherwise the fish load may cause further problems with algae (due to bioload). Welcome to PC...

Also, without heavy currents, the tank might be a bit small for Chaetostoma.

MyraVan · Post by **MyraVan** » 07 Jan 2005, 11:50

Just in case anyone cares, here's what I ended up with: 2 hillstream loaches. They are not catfish at all! They bear some resemblance to very small (2") stingrays. They have sucker bellies that they use to keep themselves attached to rocks as they feed on algae in very swift running streams. They don't seem to be making much of a dent in my algae population, but they are cool fish anyway.

cwindram · Post by **cwindram** » 16 Jan 2005, 22:24

Myra,

I have Otocinclus cats in both my tanks, and they do help quite a bit with algae on glass, plants, rocks, and other surfaces. I recently got 5 new Otocinclus and placed them in my 20 Gal (which had some light algae growth on the glass, etc.)...within two days they had cleaned the tank spotless. I finally decided that they might not get enough to eat, and moved 2 of them to a 40 gal that I have.

Corydoras paleatus is tolerant of lower temperatures and could probably be kept at room temps according to most accounts.

<a href="http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/callicht/coryd
ora/271_f.php"> http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/ca ... 1_f.php</a>.

You might have a full tank now, but if you have more room in the future, this is a nice Cory, and very common in many LFS.

Best wishes,

Chris Windram

PlecoCrazy · Post by **PlecoCrazy** » 17 Jan 2005, 05:01

MyraVan wrote:I seem to have got past the phase where it seemed like brown algae would take over the tank - but it would be nice to have some fish to help keep it down.

MyraVan wrote: They don't seem to be making much of a dent in my algae
population, but they are cool fish anyway.

They don't like brown algae. Hope your not counting on that to fill their tummies.

Hillstream Loaches are a good choice for an unheated tank but they do like a good current, lots of smooth rocks, and veggies. If they don't get their veggies they will starve to death.

MyraVan · Post by **MyraVan** » 20 Jan 2005, 16:49

cwindram wrote:

I have Otocinclus cats in both my tanks, and they do help quite a bit with algae on glass, plants, rocks, and other surfaces.

Is this an unheated tank? I'd be very interested to know if one can keep otos without a heater, as all I had read suggested a minumum temp of 22 or 23C.

And I certainly considered peppered cories for my tank. I think they are incredibly cute-looking, and at some point in time, if I get another tank (which I think I will) I will get some cories to put in it. I think the main reson I didn't get them for this tank is that the rosy barbs already fill the role of bottom feeder. They are bottom feeders, surface feeders, and everything in between feeders! They seem to be eating, or looking for things to eat, most of the time...

My hillstream loaches have been in my tank for about two and a half weeks now. Much to my frustration, I haven't been able to get them to eat anything other than algae! Every few days I drop in copious amounts of unfrozen bloodworms or brine shrimp, so that a few of them settle on the bottom, and the hillstreams studiously ignore them. They also ignore Tetra sinking tablets, which by several accounts they are supposed to love...

They do seem to like the current. I have an internal filter turned up full blast, and I find that they clean the glass much better where the filter outlet stream hits the glass.

About brown algae: it has come back. It went away when I was on holiday for a week and didn't feed the fish (as I had assembled my automatic fishfeeder incorrectly), but now that I've started feeding the fish again, it has returned. (Incidentally the fish were fine despite not being fed for a bit over a week.) But the hillstream loaches do seem to eat brown algae, at least to some extent. One of them (the larger, less shy one) has taken to settling on the brown-coated leaves of my Java Fern and is obviously eating it (the algae, not the fern). The rosy barbs pick at it too; I hate to think what my tank would look like without the rosy barbs and hillstream loaches...

Since the brown algae went away when I didn't feed the fish I think its growth is related to the amount of nutrients present. I have just bought and installed some more plants in hopes of getting them to use up more of the nutrients. But I don't want them to do too good of a job. I need some algae to feed the hillsterams, especially as they are still refusing other foods.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 20 Jan 2005, 17:13

Oto's that have data in the Cat-eLog require a minimum of 21'C. I'm pretty sure they'd survive less than that, but when I kept my Ancistrus in an unheated tank the poor girl would "fall asleep" on it's back overnight. I feared it had died, but it was just inactive due to lack of temperature. Once I installed a heater set for 22'C, it was fine.

So as long as you can keep it at about 20-21'C, Oto's would be fine. Just make sure that it's not falling too much below that.

Note that an internal filter will add some small amount of heat (the power rating of the filter is converted to heat, which will warm up the water as long as the "motor" part of the filter is mostly under water). In fact, in another post, Shane Linder was complaining that his river-tank setup was getting too hot. Of course, he had something like three quite big power-heads in a 3' tank...

As to algae growth: If you do not add food, the fish will obviously eat more of the algae (Rosy barbs like vegetable food anyways, and does chew on algae, they go after my Courgette for the Clown Pleco's like a delicacy. Doubt that the Clown's were that impressed, but they've got the Mopani to chew on). Feeding less will help with the algae growth, as will adding some aquarium plant fertilizer. They generally contain the nutrients that are often missing in an aquarium, but not the stuff that fish "produce" when consuming the food. I bought a bottle that does 500L for about 4 quid at my LFS, but used only half the recommended dose, and although it's only a few days ago, my plants have quite clearly sprouted a bit, with no more algae than before.

--
Mats

MyraVan · Post by **MyraVan** » 21 Jan 2005, 11:08

So as long as you can keep it at about 20-21'C, Oto's would be fine.

So I could have had Otos after all! Darn, they were my first choice of fish, but I had assumed that my tank was too cool for them. Ah, well, maybe they'll go in the next tank... In a way the tank setup I have now is neat in that all the fish in there are cyprinids.

I have to add some food for the zebra danios. I haven't seen them eat anything other than the food I put in. But since the rosy barbs eat some algae, I think feeding them less is a good idea. So I'll feed until the zebras get full. The rosy barbs seem to be able to eat almost infinite amounts of food! There is never any uneaten food in the tank, as the rosys search over the bottom and the plants for anything that didn't get eaten on the way down.

For whatever reason, my algae growth seems to have slowed down an awful lot recently. I used to have to scrape the front of the tank almost every other day to be able to see the fish. Now it's been several days and there still isn't much on it. I think getting rid of the cabomba must have helped. I had some cabomba caroliniana that I'd picked up from the LFS. Initially it looked great but then it started to fall apart. I guess as it fell apart it released lots of nutrients into the water, encouraging algae growth. Now I've got some plants that are better suited to my tank (crinkly-leaf crypt and dwarf sag). And the resulting slowdown in algae growth has me worrying that I won't have enough algae to feed the hillstream loaches! If I could get them to eat something else I'd feel better...

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 21 Jan 2005, 11:23

Rosy barbs will eat til they are square... One of mine looks like it's going to burst, becasue I was trying to get some food to my Clown Pleco's, and the barbs got most of that food... They aren't fussy eaters in the least, are they...

Zebra danios are probably OK if you just feed them reasonably, and ignore how much food the barbs will eat. Obviously, if there's less algae, you'll need more food for the barbs, and you'll need to leave some algae for the loaches too.

It could also be that you have a better balance in the tank now. It can take a long time to get the tank fully matured, and I THINK that it takes longer with a colder tank, but it could just be my imagination.

--
Mats

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 21 Jan 2005, 18:29

i would just buy a heater. then your choice of species won't be restricted by temperature.

yes, heaters can go wrong, but this is quite rare, and usually on quite old heaters. if you spend money on the best quality one you can find, and replace it after say 4 years, you will not have any problems.

also, instead of buying one big heater, buy two small ones. if there is a malfunction then one heater is still able to heat the tank, or if it sticks on you will have longer to notice any problems.

troi · Post by **troi** » 22 Jan 2005, 18:10

MatsP wrote:Oto's that have data in the Cat-eLog require a minimum of 21'C. I'm pretty sure they'd survive less than that, but when I kept my Ancistrus in an unheated tank the poor girl would "fall asleep" on it's back overnight.

Not that this is a suggestion to anyone, but I had otos, C. paleatus and platies in an outside half barrel pond a few years ago. I lost one oto to the cold and several playies, but the paleatus did fine. the temp must have been in the low 50's or high 40's deg F (somewhere around 10 deg. C) when we pulled them in. The remaining oto was comatose, but revived with slow rising temp.

troi

megladonsharky · Post by **megladonsharky** » 23 Jan 2005, 06:13

I have both heated and unheated small tanks gallon to 8 gallons ... the heated tank is thriving and the fish colors are awesome and fish are very active... the unheated and well and good but the fish are not growing as fast or looking as good... the heater is not an expensive one it hangs on the tank with a gaurd ...

MyraVan · Post by **MyraVan** » 25 Jan 2005, 14:03

Why I don't just go out and buy a heater: I simply like the idea of keeping the tank as low-tech as possible. I find it more interesting to find plants and fish that work well in the simple setup I have rather than trying to make my setup more complicated to accomodate other fish. I would change my mind and get a heater if I found there was a type of fish that I really wanted to keep that wouldn't live in an unheated tank. For example, if I really wanted to keep angelfish.

But I got into fishkeeping just wanting to keep fish, without any clear notion of what kind of fish I wanted to keep, and I've found plenty of interesting ones to choose from even without a heater.

As for fish being more active and colurful in heated tanks, well I think that depends on the type of fish! My rosy barbs are plenty colorful (the male anyway, he's a very bright orange) and seems almost hyperactive even in an unheated tank. The zebra danios have nice stripes and are also very active. The hillstream loaches aren't the most active nor the most colorful fish in the world, but they do move around plenty, and they definitely prefer it cool: they would not do nearly as well in a heated tank.

I think that if I get another tank, it will also be unheated. In looking for inhabitants of this tank, I've come across some really nice fish that can live without a heater, but I can't get them because I haven't got enough space in my tank.

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 25 Jan 2005, 14:11

fair enough.

have you seen white cloud mountain minnows? they're rather nice and would do well in your tank.

MyraVan · Post by **MyraVan** » 25 Jan 2005, 16:34

have you seen white cloud mountain minnows? they're rather nice and would do well in your tank.

I have seen white cloud mountain minnows and I agree; they look great! I think they will be the first fish I put in unheated tank #2. And peppered cories will be the second ones, after the tank is cycled (to bring this thread back round to catfish!)

help me choose a catfish

help me choose a catfish

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