S. multipunctatus hosts

Manofsnow · Post by **Manofsnow** » 11 Sep 2004, 03:36

Paul E. Turley came and spoke to my club this last week on catfish and showed a video of the S. multipunctatus breeding with a host. I believe the fish was a Hap of some kind, but don't remember the full name of it

Anyone know what this fish was? What other fish make great hosts to breed with? I recieving ten of these and have always wanted to breed, now I just need the host. Thanks!

Post by **Silurus** » 11 Sep 2004, 03:44

There are some threads that cover this topic here and here.

jolly_polli · Post by **jolly_polli** » 12 Sep 2004, 10:50

The original host is the Ctenochromis Horei but other mouthbreeding c*****ds are used but some are not suited for the job because they notice the difference in the size of the eggs they take in their mouth and spitt the eggs out or swollow them or filter them out through the gills. It is from experience to know which mouthbreeder to use.

pturley · Post by **pturley** » 13 Sep 2004, 03:26

Just got back tonight... ... I stuck around a couple of days to see the sights and hook into a 24" Cut-throat Trout at Strawberry Reservoir with Bob Allen.

The fish in the video was Haplochromis sp."Fire Hap". They make great hosts, breed like rats, spawn on a open substrate, don't spit, don't learn to quit.

Anything else you would like to know, please post, P/M or email. I am here often and my email address is in my profile.

I would like to drop in a big thank you to the Salt Lake City Aquarium Society and Mr and Mrs. Bob Allen for the tremedous hospitality!

manoa · Post by **manoa** » 13 Sep 2004, 10:54

Can Frontosas serve as hosts for syno. multipunctatus? Why or why not? Has anyone used Frontosas? Thanks.

pturley · Post by **pturley** » 13 Sep 2004, 17:22

I don't know about C. frontosa but I do know that in several aquarium observations Tropheus spp. will quit spawning in the presence of Synodontis. Evolutionary arms race anyone?

Tropheus spp. are noted as being occasional hosts. Per the post above, Ctenochromis horei appear to be the most frequent victims of the multis in the lake. (per the book: Tanganjikan Cichlids by Ad Koenings)

C. frontosa are known to be quite shy when spawning, however that doesn't mean they can't be parasitized. If you are willing to experiment (due the to the salability of the fry, most breeders of these fish aren't) please post the results. It would an interesting observation to add to the discussions.

Manofsnow · Post by **Manofsnow** » 19 Sep 2004, 23:29

Wow, it's Paul himself! I just wanted to say thanks for the great presentation on your catfish and catfish in general. Always being interested in several other kinds of fish. Especially those I've learned don't like mention on this site. You opened my eyes to catfish and will be recieving my first group of ten multipuctatus on wednesday! I also got nine A. callipteras to host the spawns. I did quite a bit of reading/research and just couldn't remember what ones you used. These ones I got seem to work so I will try these out before I try anything else. I am also thinking of using a 55g tank for the ten catfish with the hosts, or put them in two groups, five catfish with half the hosts in a 40g long? I remember you said to keep them in small groups. How small we talking about here? Thanks again for the eye opener. I also have petricola that are still growing to breeding size and your basic albino Ancistrus. Hope to get quite a few more in the future! Hope to hear from you soon~

Michael Storer

pturley · Post by **pturley** » 20 Sep 2004, 02:33

Of course it's me. I am here everyday!

For Synodontis multipunctatus the group I used was three males/two females, along with 14 Haps.

The Astatotilapia will likely be good hosts, but as I said in my talk, strip them early to maximize the number of catfish you get.

Also one more thing, I have found that if you raise the cichlids with the catfish present from the first spawns, not much happens!
Be sure to get the Astatotilapia spawning on a regular (weekly if possible) basis. Repeated failures right at the first couple spawns for Haplochromines can and does deter them from future breeding attempts. If the catfish are always harassing them, they'll never get in a consistent pattern of spawning frequently.

Good luck with the catfish. Keep us posted...

Manofsnow · Post by **Manofsnow** » 20 Sep 2004, 02:57

When stripping do you strip everything out of the female into a tumbler? You don't seperate the catfish eggs from the host? Do the catfish eat the host eggs if done this way? Is that what you want? I remember saying you stripped once a week. How long do you tumble for? When and what did you feed them? I can assume most of these questions but you have a lot more experiance than I do! I will plan on rasing the catfish away from the cichlids then. Great advice! Also, these catfish are about 2" long. How long until they will be at breeding size? Thanks

sidguppy · Post by **sidguppy** » 20 Sep 2004, 17:02

Can Frontosas serve as hosts for syno. multipunctatus? Why or why not? Has anyone used Frontosas? Thanks.

frontosa shares it's habitat (the deeper rocky and intermedeate habitat) as well as it's 'working shift' (dusk, dawn, night) with Synodontis-species.

BUT this cichlid seems well adapted to breeding with parasites in the vicinity; it has a very peculiar spawning method.

for example; S multipunctatus breeds ONLY with cichlids that spawn 'quickly' and fertilize the eggs in the mouth of the female cichlid. (Ctenochromis, Simochromis, Ophtalmotilapia etc)

Frontosa's spawning behaviour is all backwards!
the male first releases sperm (while swimming backwards!), and only after this, the female starts to lay eggs (while swimming backwards).
this is a very strange phenomena, that even baffles Konings, BUT it definitely makes sense IF you take in account of parasite-catfish around.....

first you have to know how Synodontis detects cichlids spawning in the area: by smell.
Now: what is likely to give off more smell; the stationary eggs or the quickly dispersing sperm of the male? and of course the pheromones from fish in spawning mood.

Next: what is more 'valuable' to loose for a fish and harder to replace once lost: eggs!

Imagine the frontosa; slow, lumbering ambush-predator specialized in eating sleeping or torpid fish (sandcichlids like Xenotilapia and open-water-cichlids like Cyprichromis by night). not exactly a fish that can outswim or fight agile Synodontis multipunctatus.

BUT by reversing the spawning sequence, they quickly attract Synodontis. or not a single one when there are no catfish around.......

IF S multipunctatus shows up, the only thing 'lost', is sperm, not a single egg!

if the Syno's show up during the spawning, the female frontosa can easily avoid the catfish-eggs; she picks her own eggs up slowly from the substrate, while moving backwards, not rapidly shoveling anything 'remotely egg-like' in her mouth while gyrating in circles......
OR the frontosa's break off the spawning sequence and start again, once the catfish have left the area, in wich case only sperm is lost.
the male frontosa has plenty and to spare, in fact he produces souch quantities on occasion,

it can be seen with the naked eye.....

seems to me a perfect example of an evolutionary 'weapons-race' that has been won by Cyphotilapia frontosa.
Something else occurred to me as well; this particular habitat(the catfish-rich habitat of 15-60m with rocks, caves and sandy areas) has several other fish as well that seem to have evolved strange breeding habits as well; bi-parental mouthbreeding and fertlizing the eggs before taking them in the mouth are known of Limnochromis spp, Greenwoodochromis christyi, Triglachromis otostigma (wich also shares another catfish-rich habitat: muddy riverdelta's), Xenotilapia spilopterus and Xenotilapia papilio and it's allies.

The only other bi-parental mouthbrooders seem to live in Synodontis multipunctatus-free area's:
Eretmodus, Spathodus and Tanganicodus live in very shallow water and are stricktly day-active.
Xenotilapia flavipinnis lives in the wide-open sand area's where no rocks (and hence few catfish if any) are present;
Asprotilapia leptura lays very few, very big eggs and it is one of the fastest fish in the lake; it can easily avoid and outswim any Synodontis. It lives in the rocky area's (like Tropheus, this is an aufwuchs eater, a grazer), but like it's close cousin Xenotilapia papilio (and all other Xenotilapia and Enantiopus) it fertlizes before taking in any eggs.

The presence of bi-parental mouthbreeders in Tanganyika seems strange (Victoria and Malawi have no such fish), AFAIK scientists view this method as more 'primitive' and less 'efficient' as maternal mouthbreeding; UNLESS you take in account Synodontis multipunctatus......

Maybe I'm wrong on all this, BUT I've been breaking my brains over these inconsistencies of Lake Tanganyika for years, and if you add the 'rule' that all fish interact with each other while sharing habitat.....

Manofsnow · Post by **Manofsnow** » 20 Sep 2004, 23:10

Pretty much made sence. One thing I caught was:

first you have to know how Synodontis detects c*****ds spawning in the area: by smell.

In the talk with Paul I remember him saying that before cichlids breed they release sounds. Although pharamones are released and do play a part. Sound travels much better in water then I am sure smell does. I was actually going to ask you Paul. Do you have any scientific journals or any other data on the sounds of cichlids? This is something I have never really thought about and you sparked that too! I was going to do my masters thesis on pheramones but it seems sound may be something to consider too. I still have a lot to learn. Just looking for all the info I can find. Thanks

pturley · Post by **pturley** » 21 Sep 2004, 02:05

I did a report on cichlid breeding behavior and bioacoustics in college. I am sure I have the references around. It's going to take some looking but I'll post them when I find them.

Given that sound is both more directional and travels farther, I'd suspect this is the long range clues to the catfish in the wild. I would expect olfaction is very important as well but likely more in closing in on a potential host.

I was aware of the spawning sequence of C. frontosa but never considered that in light of potential parasitism. Interesting thoughts though...
There are at least one if not a couple Master's or PHD thesis' in this one.

Manofsnow · Post by **Manofsnow** » 21 Sep 2004, 04:56

Back to the original post. I think that should have been a new topic! Very ineresting. When stripping do you strip everything out of the female into a tumbler? You don't seperate the catfish eggs from the host? Do the catfish eat the host eggs if done this way? Is that what you want? I remember saying you stripped once a week. How long do you tumble for? When and what did you feed them? I can assume most of these questions but you have a lot more experiance than I do! I will plan on rasing the catfish away from the c*****ds then. Great advice! Also, these catfish are about 2" long. How long until they will be at breeding size? Thanks

manoa · Post by **manoa** » 21 Sep 2004, 09:58

Thanks for all the interesting and informative replys. This board is heaven sent for individuals needing info on any type of catfish!

sidguppy · Post by **sidguppy** » 21 Sep 2004, 12:34

Back to the original post. I think that should have been a new topic! Very ineresting. When stripping do you strip everything out of the female into a tumbler? You don't seperate the catfish eggs from the host? Do the catfish eat the host eggs if done this way? Is that what you want? I remember saying you stripped once a week. How long do you tumble for? When and what did you feed them? I can assume most of these questions but you have a lot more experiance than I do! I will plan on rasing the catfish away from the c*****ds then. Great advice! Also, these catfish are about 2" long. How long until they will be at breeding size? Thanks

that's a truckload of questions!
I leave it to experienced strip/breeders like Pturley to fill in the gaps, but for starters:
-you can separate the young Syno's (after three or four days there will be no Syno-eggs but fry!), if you want cichlids as well; otherwise the eggs make excellent fry-food, as this is the natural fry-food as well.

-food: except for fish-eggs, LOTS and LOTS of fresh-hatched artemia larvae; like all fry, it's best to feed several times a day a small portion, than once a big one (to avoid overeating, waterpollution etc)
you might try de-shelled artemia-eggs or cyclopeeze or cyclops, but for tiny fry, artemia-nauplii is best.

-2" Multipunctatus aren't yet mature; their growth isn't that fast (they grow fast in youth, but slow down once reaching maturity), so you just have to be patient.
Any multipunctatus of 4-5 years old or so (this varies widely) is likely breedable; at this age they're 4" or bigger. Good food to condition them is fish-eggs (!), black mosquitolarvae, mysis, bloodworms, gammarus etc. variety is key, not quantity!
they like good quality spirulina-flake or -tabs as well.

pturley · Post by **pturley** » 21 Sep 2004, 14:06

Sidguppy is (as always) spot-on.

To add to this post, leave the fry in the tumbler until they are free swimming. Once they capable of actively searching for food, let them free. A good clue is once they have some blotches of pigment and fully formed fins. Once they are at this stage, give them some room to spread out. Otherwise, they will continue to prey on each other.

Let me reiterate one thing: "LOTS AND LOTS OF FRESHLY HATCHED ARTEMIA!" And feed often. As soon as they are looking for food it's already too late. They will eat ANYTHING they can fit into their mouths (which will include each other, tail-first!).

Once they are out in a tank and feeding on their own, start to diversify they diet with some prepared foods. As I mentioned in my talk, the HBH Brand line of Soft-and-Moist pellets are excellent, paricularly the "green". Also, buy the smaller size pellets.

As for breeding age, I have heard as little as 18 months to spawning age/size. I generally expect about 2 years. No reason to push the growth too fast.

BTW: Your two inch long fish may only be as little as 4 months old! The growth rate is that fast! They shoot up to about 1 1/2 inch long in as little as two months, then the growth rate slows.

sidguppy · Post by **sidguppy** » 21 Sep 2004, 15:46

4 months??
wow....

I'm still used to Tangies being slow-growers and I've never seen multipuncs grow that fast.
BUT then, I'll admit, I'm only familiar with them competing in a tank full of cichlids; wich may significantly slow groth.

Guess I'm learning here as well!
imagine that with Synodontis petricola, S p dwarf, S dhonti , S polli or S 'polli white'...all notorious slow growers.

Manofsnow · Post by **Manofsnow** » 22 Sep 2004, 16:08

Wow, those guys might be quite young then. I guess I can always buy wild caught if my patients overtakes my will to get larger catfish. Otherwise, this is what I have planned:

I have two 40g longs I plan to use for two groups of catfish and hosts.

I will try to get 2m/3f of the catfish in each tank like Paul said. Of course after I learn to sex them

I have several, about 12, tumblers and have been doing that for years using the following two designs: http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/diy_tumbler.php http://www.sydneycichlid.com/diy/diytumbler.html most of them are a modification of both. Just didn't seem it worthy to spend $25 for a tumbler when I can build one with stuff in my fish room.

And just to get this straight, tumble until I see the catfish developed then give them their own room? How much room? I have four tens with no substrate running on sponge filters for fry. Are those too big? Should I use a breeder net that hangs on the side of the tank? A lot of questions I am sorry, just want to make sure I have everything in order.

pturley · Post by **pturley** » 22 Sep 2004, 17:52

The only problem with the tumbler designs you are looking at is the small size of the holding chamber. The ones I always used were made my Ron Hansen in Minnesota from 1 1/4" acrylic pipe (More surface area on the bottom). Similar ones are available on Aquabid (for ~$25).

Basically, the more surface area in the bottom of the tumbler, the less chance for the fish to eat each other and the larger you can grow them while in the tumbler.

Holding nets on the sides of larger tanks works fine provided it's not in a tank with larger fish (cichlids). I once kept a batch of catfish fry in the original breeding tank, only to find they had been sucked through the mesh tail first by the cichlids. I guess the little wiggling tadpoles were too much of a temptation to the Haplochromis.

I have a design I built for a large tumbler but the construction is a bit fragile. I made a few working prototypes that I use but the design is not quite ready (for market anyways) yet.

Do you remember the video of the rearing tank with hundreds of little catfish in it that I showed in my talk? That was a 40 breeder.
In larger tumblers I could literally dump the fry from the tumbler directly into this tank without worry or concerns.

BTW: I only use ten gallons as small filter sumps, IMO they are too small and unstable to be of too much use.

Manofsnow · Post by **Manofsnow** » 22 Sep 2004, 19:14

Noooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!! I just got my precious little catish delivered along with my hosts and they were ALL dead!!! I'm going to cry...

Maybe I won't have to worry about this all anymore. Seems like I don't have the catfish or hosts to do it all! Anyone know where I can get some for a great deal? I got these on aquabid, ten for $67 bucks along with the hosts from the same guy. He had a great rating and from the sound of it he knew what he was doing. Only thing I didn't like was there was about 1.5" of water on the bottom of the bag and when turned horizontal there was barely any room for the fish to swim. Other than than the packaging was great, insulated, heated, double bagged. Could that have been the reason, not enough water? Temp was 74 degrees F. Oh, and their stomaches had holes in them..? Now I'm just a little angry.

I will have to look into getting a bigger tumbler so the catfish don't eat each other. Only thing I don't understand about that is wouldn't the catfish eat each other in the host mouth in the wild? That is a pretty small tumbler if you ask me, being a cichlid's mouth.

So rule out the ten gallons and just use a larger tank to put all the catfish in? How small and large of catfish can I mix in there without problems? I have plenty of tank space, so don't rule that out as a factor. I just hope I can find some more catfish and hosts!!!

pturley · Post by **pturley** » 22 Sep 2004, 20:21

manof snow wrote:

Only thing I don't understand about that is wouldn't the catfish eat each other in the host mouth in the wild? That is a pretty small tumbler if you ask me, being a c*****d's mouth.

They do... ...that's the point of stripping early.

Sorry to hear about your cats. Most users with good ratings on Aquabig got there because of good service. I would expect you'll have replacements soon enough.

$67 huh? I think I may have almost bid against you on this auction! IRONMAN was the seller correct?

Manofsnow · Post by **Manofsnow** » 22 Sep 2004, 20:29

Oops, typo. It was actually $76. It ended a while ago and I was waiting to win his Astotilapias before shipping. It was Ironman and I am InfiniteScales. http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/ ... 1094987340 Why you bidding on these guys anyway? Trying to get back into it? You did get out of it right? Anyway, I wish I knew what was wrong. I am going to tell him that I was unhappy with the amount of water in the bag. As I have never shipped/recieved fish with so little. Here are my hosts that died: http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/ ... 1095156114 I sure hope he honors himself. I would just like him to send more fish, but we will se. Any guesses on what could have gone wrong?

pturley · Post by **pturley** » 22 Sep 2004, 21:00

ManofSnow Wrote:

Why you bidding on these guys anyway?

Outcross.

I still have three of my five original breeders. I have since added another pair to these. Wouldn't mind adding a few more....

Actually we can take more direct questions between you and I to P/Ms.

blazespecv · Post by **blazespecv** » 24 Sep 2004, 03:44

One thing about the frontosa.... I have never heard of an account of spawning multis with Frontosa, and have even tried myself. My prolific Mpimbwes (F0), immediately stopped breeding every time multis were introduced to the tank, just turned off. And even if you could get them to breed, it is likely due to the extreme size difference in eggs, that the multi eggs would be lost from the female fronts large gills flaring and such.
I am about to try 30 Hap. sp. Flamebacks with 15 adult WC multis to see if I can increase my spawns.....aiming for 200+ a month.
I also have a group of 4, was 5 except one was eaten by a C. Afra, of another multi variant in grow-out to breed, also WC. Nearing that point thankfully.
Also, as you can kind of get the gist of from above, some fish just seem to despise multis. C. Afra seems to be one of these fish, I have heard only horror stories about these 2 kept together.
And as everyone else has been telling you snow, strip early.....3 days at average temps is good.
As for Ironman, he is a great seller and I am sure he will replace your fish for you, he is having family issues at the moment and that is why his service has dropped. Just keep contacting him and he will get you your new fish, happy and healthy.
Hope this helps
-James

pturley · Post by **pturley** » 24 Sep 2004, 16:46

Multipunctatus

If you watch these fish spawn a couple of times youâ??ll quickly realize that 15 catfish in one spawning group is far too many.

Typically, a day or two before the cichlids begin spawning, the catfish will begin to be actively re-assessing their dominance hierarchy.

My theory is that the catfish detect the imminence of the cichlid spawns based on shifts in the sounds the male cichlids emits. Haplochromines are noted as having a distinct change in pitch and types of sounds they emit prior to and during spawning. (Possibly having to do with Lek-spawning in turbid waters???) Again, I will try to find the references for this. Catfishes, with their Webbarian apparatus would be able to hear and detect these changes over great distances. I believe these sounds are the long-range clues to the catfish that cichlids are beginning their reproductive cycles nearby.

In an aquarium anyway, once the catfishes sort out the dominance hierarchy itâ??s typically the resulting dominant pair (which changes per spawn BTW) that does most if not all of the spawning. The remaining catfish in the group will visit the nests of the cichlids, (only to be chased away by both the cichlids AND by the dominant catfish pair) however, these do not spawn! They only steal eggs to eat. Add to that, these fish appear to make no distinction between cichlid eggs and catfish eggs.

So, by having such a large group, you are actually increasing the chances of a stray catfish being at the nest site and eating the spawn of the breeding S. multipunctatus pair.

I really need to write all this down in an article.

It's interesting but not entirely surprizing you saw the same behaviour in wild Fronts that I have documented in Tropheus spp.. Certainly warrants further investigation.

Manofsnow · Post by **Manofsnow** » 24 Sep 2004, 19:40

If the hierarchy changes per spawn then why do you choose 3m/2f? Wouldn't 3f/2m work better? Just sparked the curiousity of why you chose that mixture of gender.

Also, Ironman is sending me ten more mutlies and rufunding the price of the callipteras. He said he might have more in the tank that are quite a bit smaller that he will send for free so it did all work out! I'm kinda liking this whole aquabid thing. Someone want to buy some Enantiopus melanogenys? Wonder if they will breed in the presence of these catfish

pturley · Post by **pturley** » 24 Sep 2004, 20:31

That's what was left from the three original pairs I purchased after the first bout of fights broke out in the tank.

Manofsnow · Post by **Manofsnow** » 24 Sep 2004, 21:20

Would you suggest a different mix then? He is sending ten more so I will have plenty to play with. Anyone know a good link or way of sexing these while I'm on the subject of gender?

Manofsnow · Post by **Manofsnow** » 29 Sep 2004, 20:31

The second shipment just came in and they all arrived great! I how have ten multies and ten callipteras. Now I just have to wait about a year from them to grow up...

blazespecv · Post by **blazespecv** » 01 Oct 2004, 08:56

I don't really know about all that....at first I thought the same, since I have seen multis diving in and stealing eggs from both the cichlids, and the syno pair trying to sneak eggs in. That's well known, and rather upsetting because it would be nice to get huge spawns. But upon increasing the group in one tank, I had much larger spawns. Despite there being more catfish, I have many more females, which I think allows the more gravid females to spawn, thus more eggs would usually mean that even though most will get eaten, there are more to be picked up. It always seems that the most gravid female at the time will be the one to spawn, I have not really taken into account whether it is the same male or not. Hum.....I am just waiting for the day when I finally get an albino, now that will be interesting.

S. multipunctatus hosts

S. multipunctatus hosts

How's about Frontosas?