Anyone for a round of-- Can you sex this zebra pleco?

Post by **Barbie** » 25 Jul 2004, 07:47

I took a few dozen pictures this evening of what I've been assuming are 2 males and 4 female zebras. They are all uploaded in my gallery Here and you can add comments on each of them as you go, if you like. The 4 I assumed were female have filenames in an F series, and the males I jokingly call blackie and bubba, along with a few comparison shots from different angles.

I moved them in to a 40 gallon long tank this evening, and will continue a longer than usual dry season, in hopes that the rains will stimulate them to do something. I have had zero luck so far, but who knows! Thanks for any help on this

Barbie

INXS · Post by **INXS** » 25 Jul 2004, 23:01

Barbie,
I think your zebras are obese

and I'm jealous!!

Looking at them it seems hard to judge the sex by bodyshape as they are all wellfed. If you do have any males they should definitly do their thing with a long dry season and a rain.

On a different subject I noticed my QAs looking as fat as your zebras and all seem to have white bellies. Did you notice the male QAs having patterned bellies and being less fat? - That may be a clue for both or us.

Going by the odontoidal growth on the pectorals I think you have the males pegged but it is hard to tell as they seem to get a different appearance from different angles.

Beautiful fish though, really nice and well kept - good job!

davidkozak · Post by **davidkozak** » 26 Jul 2004, 01:30

They look great, Barbie! I bet you'll have them spawning in no time..

david
P.s. as you well know I'm the LAST person who should be guessing the sex of hypancistrus, so I shall asbstain..

Post by **Barbie** » 26 Jul 2004, 04:02

All of my QA males have patterned stomachs, yes, and danged if I didn't just ship my spare male off last week!

My zebras have been set up in a 20 gallon tank with a month long dry season and a week of rains and serious drop in TDS for almost 7 months now. They are definitely reproductively challenged. One of the fish that I thought was a female appears to be male, but the others should be female. I'm sure at some point they'll stop holding out, it's just whether or not I can manage to have patience enough ;) Thank you all for the nice comments about conditioning. They are actually a bit thinner than I had them at one point. Hopefully I can figure out exactly the right combination of factors to get it right.

On a side note, my "spare" QA males have both spawned with the extra females in the 55 gallon tank full of growout fish. Contrary to popular belief, 2 males WILL spawn in close proximity to each other evidently, lol. Their caves are within 20 inches or so of each other, so I was quite pleasantly surprised to find both of them guarding eggs at the same time.

Barbie

INXS · Post by **INXS** » 26 Jul 2004, 04:24

no wonder they aren't having any conjugational visits

(my QAs that is).

Maybe your zebras are just constipated

Post by **Barbie** » 26 Jul 2004, 04:42

You call them constipated, Bob says they're gay... Either way, I'm not getting fry!

Barbie

Boots n all · Post by **Boots n all** » 26 Jul 2004, 07:24

Hey Barbie, what are you feeding those guys??????? they are so rounded that at a glance they all look like they could be ripe females

, Good luck

Post by **Janne** » 26 Jul 2004, 08:50

Barbie,
You have had both luck and unluck

...to me all look like females and females are harder to find than males, so get a male then they will breed easily.

Janne

Post by **Barbie** » 26 Jul 2004, 17:23

Good lord, are you serious? These were the same plecos that I took the pictures of and posted last spring. 2 of them use the caves, the other 4 do not, leaving 2 spares. 2 have much more visible odontodes, but yes, are very fat and ripe looking.

I guess it's time to take pictures of the 5 I've been growing out then. What are the odds of 6 females?

Barbie

Post by **Janne** » 26 Jul 2004, 17:56

Take them out the tank...take a look on the underside...if all look the same they are females.

Janne

ZebraPleco · Post by **ZebraPleco** » 26 Jul 2004, 19:09

[edit double post]

ZebraPleco · Post by **ZebraPleco** » 26 Jul 2004, 19:09

Wow ... they all look so fat. I am no expert, but from my limited experience, they all looked like female. How big are they? Are they 3" long?

Janne wrote:Take them out the tank...take a look on the underside...if all look the same they are females.

Janne

Hi Janne, Can you actually tell if they are male or femail by looking at their underside? If so, can you tell if these two are 1 male and 1 femail?
It looks like they are, but that's just my own observation (which isn't much).

thanks,

Post by **Janne** » 26 Jul 2004, 19:48

ZebraPleco,

That needs to be much closer to see the different between them.
When they are mature and in good condition the females genitalpapilla will look like a bulb and the males like a small tapp. There are also differents in the shape of the pectoral fin...males have longer more elongated and females shorter which make them look more "compact".

A guess is that you have two males...so sell one or change with Barbie

Janne

Post by **Barbie** » 27 Jul 2004, 02:39

I've got 5 more young zebras I've been growing out. I'll try to get pics of them this evening. Don't suppose you have any pictures of exactly what differences I'm supposed to see in venting them? *looks around for the totally disgusted icon*

Thank you for your help Janne. I guess that could explain why they haven't spawned yet.

Barbie

Post by **Barbie** » 27 Jul 2004, 08:25

Here are a few more pictures in another album to compare to the first ones. I'm pretty sure one of these is male, after looking at them closely. His head and odontodes are as large as another of them that looks female whose abdomen is twice the size and a somewhat different shape. At this point, who knows. I added the 2 largest fish in this set of pictures to the 40 gallon tank with the others, along with a new piece of wood and a rearranging of caves. Unless there's a battle of some sort, they're going to either get cozy or die of old age in their new digs ;)

Barbie

INXS · Post by **INXS** » 27 Jul 2004, 13:09

Barbie,
the one you have labeled as a male sure looks like a male based on shape, fins and head.

Woody · Post by **Woody** » 28 Jul 2004, 01:47

You just wanted to show them off, we are unlucky over here in Aust they are are no-go for us.

But I would love to keep some

Post by **Barbie** » 28 Jul 2004, 03:16

No, I didn't want to show them off. Once I get fry, THEN I'll show them off. Right now they are just a large investment of time and money that sits in their snug little caves and snickers at me as I walk by! I've wanted to spawn these from the very first moment I saw one years ago, and I've been collecting them for more than 3 years in hopes of actually accomplishing it at some point. As I'm well known for my lack of patience, I wasn't doing half bad til this last little bump in the road

Barbie

Woody · Post by **Woody** » 28 Jul 2004, 03:19

Keep trying. Eventuly you will get there. Good luck, if only I had the chance to give them a try !

Woody

sodapopdima · Post by **sodapopdima** » 28 Jul 2004, 04:09

Hey Barbie they are beautiful. I wish you the most luck in breeding them. They look very plump, are they fat?

I would also like to ask and bring up an idea. Many exotic Pleco species are put on red lists and are less and less available every year. If more people helped in the breeding department, I feel this would definitely be benefiting to the species survival. For this reason I have the utmost respect for all the breeders here who actually contribute.

So as for my question, would anybody be willing to make a step-by-step guide for people interested in getting started. For a perfect example, myself!!! I am sure many just like me wish they knew more about this subject, and could help out. I have had fish for some time now and I feel I can take good care of them, but it seems as if though certain species, like the zebra Pleco for example, need extra special care not that of a typical aquarium. From the great amount of reading around I had done, I know I don't post much, I seen many reports that they like to have a current flow, just as a small example of those little things to know. But I;m talking about a nice, easy to understand for beginners layout, a newbie guide if you will, starting from tank layout, to all equipment used such as filters, gravel, airstones, suggested minimum tank size, test kits...etc... I have yet to find one anywhere on the Internet, or anything exclusive of such nature. I think that a tutorial guide such as this can definitely help, especially those who want to get started. I for one would personally love in helping out, I am fascinated by the zebra Pleco species and would love to contribute, but need to be shown how.

So basically, all this long ranting and rambling brings to the simple point, can anyone or is anyone willing to maybe write a setup guide?

Thanks all for reading this.

Post by **Barbie** » 28 Jul 2004, 04:36

Have you tried the reproduction articles in "Shane's World"? Or the Ancistrinae Internet lecture? There is also a chat log from an online talk that Larry Vires gave on spawning Loris. There is a TON of information here already existing on the subjects you're referring to. It's usually easier to just answer questions as we receive them than try to guess what people would need to know, IME. Hope that helps. You'll find a TON of great info in those articles. They are where I started my quest for spawning my plecos.

Barbie

sodapopdima · Post by **sodapopdima** » 28 Jul 2004, 05:02

I am sorry to sound ignorant, but no I have no idea where any of those articles are. Got any links?

Woody · Post by **Woody** » 28 Jul 2004, 05:10

sodapopdima check your PM's

Taratron · Post by **Taratron** » 28 Jul 2004, 15:36

Barbie, I'm curious what your pH and general hardness is---I'm guessing it's difficult, if not impossible, to spawn these guys in hard water?

Post by **Barbie** » 28 Jul 2004, 16:13

Actually my tap water has a pH of 7.8, kH of 7 and a gH of 9 most of the time, but the RO water I use for stimulation does not ;) Although zebras have been bred in VERY hard water and actually are one of the plecos from well aerated water that tolerate a higher pH than most.

Barbie

Kenneth Wong · Post by **Kenneth Wong** » 28 Jul 2004, 16:47

Hi Barbie,

best of luck on breeding the zebras. I am curious as to what type of feeding routine you have on the guys since I've never been able to get my zebras that fat. I feed mine with frozen brine and blood worms, and sinking pellets (tetra bits, ocean nutrition F1, Life spectrum) twice a day. How often do you feed and with what? Thanks. I'm also trying to get mine in breeding condition and growing some out.

zebraplec · Post by **zebraplec** » 28 Jul 2004, 18:02

sodapopdima...I agree totally about breeders helping out to make rare fish available to all and that is exactly why I started. I can't say my methods will work for everyone however it has produced 18 healthy babies from 4 spawns so here goes:

Firstly let me dismiss the theory that zebras won't spawn in hard water! I have had success with GH that has been as high as 12.

I currently have the six adults in a three foot tank and run a fluval 304 external filter. I have provided lots of caves mainly out of slate so they can pick one they like...don't be too fussy about making them look pretty because 3 of the 4 spawns have been in cracks between the slate not in the caves I thought they would like. The temp is a constant 86.

Ok now for some background and my method

In the wild zebras spawn during the rainy season which is usually between July and august..to breed zebras you have to trick them into thinking the heavens have opens by doing a 30% water change at 2 degrees cooler than the water in the tank (84).

Turn off the heater till the temp goes down to around 76 then turn the heater back on till it reaches 84.

Now just sit back and watch the action

Hope this helps

Post by **Coryman** » 28 Jul 2004, 18:22

Barbie,

We have one or two people here in the UK that are breeding Zebras, I even gave them a go for a while. When I first got mine (12) I spoke with Ingo Seidel who was one of the first, if not the first people in the world to breed them. His advice to me was very simple keep them warm 82Âº F+ and make sure that the water is sparkling clean with a good flow.
The caves should be small i.e. just big enough for them to get into but not big enough to turn round in. I think the depth of the caves is important as well, they should not be much deeper than the length of the fish.

Sexing I was told is easy but I did not find it that easy. Personally I think you have a majority of males. I do not take to much notice of the body shape but look at the head from above, males are quite square and females more pointed. Males show pronounced pectoral fin spine bristles and opercular spines, they are also very bristly along the sides of the rear half of the body.

Looking at your pictures especially No 11/14 you can see the different head shape . Top left and second from the left look more pointed (females). Another thing that sometimes shows in males that are on the verge of breeding is the tips of the pectoral and ventral fins go red.

If you have what I think is an abundance of males it may be they are more concerned with dominance instead of attracting a mate, it could be worth just setting up a pair or two on their own.

With regard to dry season conditioning , I am not sure if it works for zebras as their natural environment is in very deep water, up to 8 metres.

Don't know if any of this helps.

Ian

pleco_farmer · Post by **pleco_farmer** » 28 Jul 2004, 19:58

barbie,

Relax...I think you caught the two males in males.jpg. Body shape goes out the winodw when they get a plump as this, since the v-shaped look of the males gets distorted. I would however follow Janne's advice and vent them. Since you're doing comparisons, its pretty easy. Just try not to let the males see you coming at them with a magnifying glass, it may set them back a month or two.

ZebraPleco · Post by **ZebraPleco** » 28 Jul 2004, 21:37

pl*co_farmer wrote:... I would however follow Janne's advice and vent them. ...

What do you mean by vent them? Sorry but I am not familiar with the term....

Anyone for a round of-- Can you sex this zebra pleco?

Anyone for a round of-- Can you sex this zebra pleco?

Nice zeb's