I am the grim reaper

mummymonkey · Post by **mummymonkey** » 16 Jul 2004, 22:03

Well I am when it comes to Loracids.
Over the last 18 months I've been unable to keep a Loracid cat alive for more than a few days. Otos, Bristlies and 1 Plec(unknown type) have all perished. I have a small fish room with 9 tanks and a planted tank in the dinning room for eye candy. It doesn't matter if they are put into a Q tank or straight into the planted tank. I've tried mega clean pristine tanks and also algae covered - left near the window for a fortnight - tanks.
The symptoms are always the same. New fish appear to settle in and start sucking away at the usual surfaces. Food such as Algae wafers, green veg etc is eaten normally and all looks well. Then they die. No marks on them or anything, in fact I generally have to poke them with a finger to see if they're alive or not. It's always not.
I've bought fish from several local stores, at auction and from breeders. So I know it's me. I got two nice Plecs two months ago and gave one to my niece whose tank I set up. She still has hers, mine is long gone. A friend and I bough some Ancistrus sp at auction 6 months ago, he still has all his, mine are pushing up the daisies. Don't get me started on Otocinclus. I did have one stay alive for over a year but it died shortly after I moved it to another tank a few months ago. All the rest, a week tops.
The last straw was a nice Ancistrus sp. I bought on Monday and put in a tank with some youngish N. anomala. Dead this morning.
My water here is neutral and soft and I keep and breed Corydoras and Dwarf cichlids as well as some rare livebearers. It's just the little suckers that I can't seem to do the right thing for.
The only theory I can come up with is that it's the cyanobacteria that's been bothering me off and on for the past couple of years. Then again, a local breeder off whom I bought a half dozen Ancistrus had loads of it in his tanks.
Has anybody ever heard of a case like this?

Yann · Post by **Yann** » 16 Jul 2004, 22:10

Hi!

Really strange...
Sincerely I doubt it is your fault, maybe as you said, there is something in the water... either it is present in your tap water, or it is a piece of your decoration or installation that release it in the tank...
Did you ask for a water testing from your water supplier?
How the tank is furnished and with what?
You should think about what stuff have all the tank in common and might harm your Loricariidae?
Do you use any type of chemicals to treat your water or so??
Cheers
Yann

mummymonkey · Post by **mummymonkey** » 16 Jul 2004, 22:52

yannfulliquet wrote: Sincerely I doubt it is your fault, maybe as you said, there is something in the water... either it is present in your tap water, or it is a piece of your decoration or installation that release it in the tank...

It's possible it's the water although both my niece and a local shop are on the same supply. I've tested it for all the usual stuff; pH, hardenss, nitrates, phosphates etc. Nothing untoward. The situation is the same in any tank I've tried (I have ten). The possibility remains that some unknown substance is my water but I'm puzzled as to why only Loracids seem to be affected.

yannfulliquet wrote:Did you ask for a water testing from your water supplier? How the tank is furnished and with what?

I got a water report sent to me some time ago and all seemed normal to my unscientific eyes. I have one planted tank with normal pea gravel and bogwood. I have one other tank with substrate which has breeding Badis ruber in it. I have 6 tanks with no substrate and only Java fern on bogwood, slate and plant pots etc. I have a 2 bare tanks with only plastic plants.
The planted tank has a cannister (Fluval 304) filter. Two growing out tanks have small internal power filters and the rest have air powered corner filters.

yannfulliquet wrote:You should think about what stuff have all the tank in common and might harm your Loricariidae? Do you use any type of chemicals to treat your water or so??

The water supply is chlorinated so I add some proprietry de-chlorinator. I've tried various kinds.

You're thinking the same as I am. Something common to all the tanks - water, perhaps a pathogen of some sort. Something that's fatal to Loracids in a matter of days yet leaves Corydoras and other, supposedly delicate fish unharmed. Beats me.

I appreciate you taking the time to respond, and so quickly too. This forum always this good?

metallhd · Post by **metallhd** » 17 Jul 2004, 01:52

mummymonkey wrote: I appreciate you taking the time to respond, and so quickly too. This forum always this good?

Heck no, we're mostly inclined to ignore you for days ! You want it when ??!!

Two suggestions: if you're on the same supply as your relative and the lfs, I'd be looking at my house and not the water - do you draw the water from the same source always, ie the bath? Test your main source against other sources in the house. Was your reported water drawn from your main source? Test your water against the lfs?

Good luck!

Yann · Post by **Yann** » 18 Jul 2004, 10:13

Hi!

Maybe the problem is from the water pipe, any idea of what they are made of?
Do you use any filter like stuff for your tap water, some people use this device in their basement to "clean" the water...any such device... (I ain't talking about R/O unit)

Cheers
Yann

ACC in NC · Post by **ACC in NC** » 18 Jul 2004, 18:12

It could be not enough current or circulation, the higher the temperature the less oxygen in the water. You should have surface agitation and when you make a water change if the chlorine level is high the normal dose of dechlor might not be enough.

Mike_Noren · Post by **Mike_Noren** » 18 Jul 2004, 18:26

It's weird that bullet-proof fish such as ancistrus die when minute sensitive fish such as those Badis survive. That means it is unlikely to be due to a generalized poison such as copper or ammonia.

The one thing I can think of, barring exotic pathogens, which might kill freshly introduced fish very quickly, is water parameter shock.

Is there reason to suspect that the water from which the fish you bought came is signfiicantly different with regards to salt content or pH compared to the water in your aquaria? Do you, for instance, use RO water?

You could do an experiment, and buy two cheap Loricariids, two ancistrus say, and dump one straight into a tank, and acclimatize the other very slowly, say by emptying the bag into a bucket and replacing the water cup by cup over the course of a day. If only the slowly acclimatized one survives... then you know.

magnum4 · Post by **magnum4** » 18 Jul 2004, 18:55

You could do an experiment, and buy two cheap Loricariids, two ancistrus say, and dump one straight into a tank, and acclimatize the other very slowly, say by emptying the bag into a bucket and replacing the water cup by cup over the course of a day. If only the slowly acclimatized one survives... then you know.

This would not prove much really, as you would expect the one thats thrown in not to survive anyway?

I would test ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, ph, GH and KH out of your tap and then in each of your tanks compare all differences and report back. This problem sounds like it needs long investigation.

mummymonkey · Post by **mummymonkey** » 18 Jul 2004, 20:28

Okay, well that's a lot to think about. I can do the tests tomorrow, the kids can help out. The experiment with the Ancistrus I don't know about. I try to aclimatise new fish in the normal 'drip feed' manner but I'd say an hour or two would be the time I take to do it rather than all day. I'm just rather fearful of killing fish to be honest. I rarely have deaths amongst the rest of my fish and some of them are quite old now. I got 14 cardinal tetras 3 years ago and haven't lost a single one. I've got breeding Mikrogeophagus ramirezi, Nannacara anomala, Xiphophorus clemenciae and Characodon lateralis.

I bought my oldest C. panda 3 years ago and she's still got many years ahead of her Im sure. I took a picture of my Pandas just to show that it's not all cats that I'm hopeless with:

I wanted to try and breed Ancistrus just as a project and hoped to keep a couple in my planted tank along with some Otocinclus but it wasn't to be. I'm going to keep a tank fish free for the next two weeks and allow algae to grow. Then I'll try again with a couple of Ancistrus.

I'll post the results of all these tests tomorrow. Can I just say thanks for everyone's help here. This is a great forum. You cat people are very friendly.

Yann · Post by **Yann** » 19 Jul 2004, 06:52

Hi!

Do you use anti algae product??
Cheers
Yann

mummymonkey · Post by **mummymonkey** » 19 Jul 2004, 08:41

yannfulliquet wrote:Hi!

Do you use anti algae product??
Cheers
Yann

No. The only chemical I use is a de-chlorinator.

mummymonkey · Post by **mummymonkey** » 21 Jul 2004, 14:17

I have done some tests and here are the results. I have Tetra kits which use a rough coloured scale so the results are not highly accurate:

<table border="0"><tr><td width = "200" ></td><td bgcolor="teal" width = "100" align="center" >PH</td><td bgcolor="white" width = "100" align="center" >KH</td><td bgcolor="teal" width = "100" align="center" >GH</td><td bgcolor="white" width = "100" align="center" >NO3</td></tr><tr><td bgcolor="white">Tap water</td> <td align = "center" bgcolor="teal" >8</td> <td align = "center" bgcolor="white" >4</td><td align = "center" bgcolor="teal" >5</td><td align = "center" bgcolor="white" >0 - 12.5</td> </tr><tr><td bgcolor="white">2 day old tap water</td> <td align = "center" bgcolor="teal" >7.0 - 7.5</td><td align = "center" bgcolor="white" >3</td><td align = "center" bgcolor="teal" >3</td><td align = "center" bgcolor="white" >0 - 12.5</td> </tr><tr><td bgcolor="white">Corydoras grow out tank</td> <td align = "center" bgcolor="teal" >7</td><td align = "center" bgcolor="white" >2</td><td align = "center" bgcolor="teal" >3</td><td align = "center" bgcolor="white" >12.5</td> </tr><tr><td bgcolor="white">Dwarf cichIid breeding tank</td> <td align = "center" bgcolor="teal" >7</td><td align = "center" bgcolor="white" >2</td><td align = "center" bgcolor="teal" >3</td><td align = "center" bgcolor="white" >0 - 12.5</td> </tr><td bgcolor="white">Planted tank</td> <td align = "center" bgcolor="teal" >6.5 - 7.0</td><td align = "center" bgcolor="white" >2</td><td align = "center" bgcolor="teal" >3</td><td align = "center" bgcolor="white" >0 - 12.5</td> </table>

Normally the nitrates in the planted tank would be higher. I need to add more fertiliser I think. I didn't test all the other tanks as they would certainly be the same as the Cory tank having almost the same decorations and maintenance routine etc.
The tap water is normally high PH in the summer time when the water levels are low in the reservoir. In the winter, the tap water would be 7.5 - 8.0. I tested some water at 2 days from the tap as a control. When doing water changes I use water from the tap. Note that no Loracids have lived long enough for me to do a water change with sadly.
Does this information give any clues and do I need to test for anything more?

Thank you.

Graham

magnum4 · Post by **magnum4** » 22 Jul 2004, 00:55

what do you buffer your tap water with, if anything?

I take it ammonia, nitrite were all zero?

mummymonkey · Post by **mummymonkey** » 22 Jul 2004, 10:54

magnum4 wrote:what do you buffer your tap water with, if anything?

The only chemical I use is a de-chlorinator apart from the CO2 and PMDD in the planted tank.

magnum4 wrote:I take it ammonia, nitrite were all zero?

All the filters are mature and working. There is no ammonia or nitrite that I can detect using the kits I have.

pete · Post by **pete** » 22 Jul 2004, 15:30

I tried adding a clown plec to our planted tank but took him out after a day because he did not look happy . This was a" norma l" planted set up with added CO2. I think that the CO2 was the problem either the lowered pH or the level of CO2 in the water. I know you are only adding CO2 to one tank but thought it worth mentioning.