In my defense. As stated earlier above, I believe people around the world should have licenses to keep and care for the large pimelodids (and bagrids). Until this happens (hell freezes over), these fish will be imported. There will be folks who buy these fish and care for them incorrectly. There are also a very select few that will purchase these fish and do the right thing. Unfortunately, those folks are very few and far between. You can keep juvs in smaller tanks but eventually you will need 750g+ for anything 30"+. That is the advice that Ive given many times in the past on this site and a couple others to hobbyists wanting to hear advice. If you read the tread from the beginning, I continued to state this fact until (each post) an animal rights activist piped up to say their piece. I value such advice, but for the folks who want to try to do the right thing and keep these fish in healthy environments, its not what they need to hear. What other defense is there by the way, besides the animal rights defense(PETA cover)? The advice you give is to stay away from these animals and let them wallow away in pet stores tanks, or in 55g tanks owned by folks who really arent hobbyists(who wont see this site).
There are a lot of issues with stores info on keeping big fish, but attacking someone who is giving correct advice and who has tanks of 400g, 240g, 220g, 150g, 135g and 125g is not the right thing to do. GO AFTER MR AQUARIST WHO JAMS 4 OSCARS AND A PACU IN A 55G.
Im not without fault in this as well and I do not want to scare people away with this senseless banter. My apologies.
Thanks for sticking up for me BTW Steve.
Getting Some GIANT catfishes
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Dinyar
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- Interests: Mochokidae, Claroteidae, Bagridae, Malepteruridae, Chacidae, Heteropneustidae, Clariidae, Sisoridae, Loricariiadae
I think most people who have kept fish for a long time would agree that small fish are as intrinsically interesting as big ones, and because fish that can be kept in a reasonable facsimile of their natural biotope display a more interesting range of behavior than fish that cannot, small fish -- whose biotopes we can more easily recreate in an aquarium -- are often more rewarding than large ones. In the more than ten years in which I've kept fish, I know that I've moved steadily towards keeping smaller fish for just these reasons.
Yes, there are reasonable ethical arguments that one can make against keeping large fish in home aquaria, but when modern society is rapidly depleting biodiversity of all kinds and we are at imminent risk of losing thousands if not millions of species, it seems hard to argue over the fates of individual captive fish.
Dinyar
Yes, there are reasonable ethical arguments that one can make against keeping large fish in home aquaria, but when modern society is rapidly depleting biodiversity of all kinds and we are at imminent risk of losing thousands if not millions of species, it seems hard to argue over the fates of individual captive fish.
Dinyar
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general-sherman
- Posts: 134
- Joined: 24 Mar 2003, 02:42
- Location 1: australia/victoria
- Interests: southamerican fish
hmm
I think we know what the attitude of this site towards keeping large catfish in captivity is, right? By this site I mean the moderators and people who run the site. They are (in general) against it. So couldn't we draw up a fair minimum requirements for the keeping of these fish and sticky it somewhere?
) with an oscar in a 48"x14"x18" tank. Now I'm worried my tanks aren't going to be big enough for a 20cm Black lancer. 
Dinyar, I totally agree. I started off (Fifteen years agoI think most people who have kept fish for a long time would agree that small fish are as intrinsically interesting as big ones, and because fish that can be kept in a reasonable facsimile of their natural biotope display a more interesting range of behavior than fish that cannot, small fish -- whose biotopes we can more easily recreate in an aquarium -- are often more rewarding than large ones. In the more than ten years in which I've kept fish, I know that I've moved steadily towards keeping smaller fish for just these reasons.
) with an oscar in a 48"x14"x18" tank. Now I'm worried my tanks aren't going to be big enough for a 20cm Black lancer. Meanwhile, Homer catches a legendary catfish, General Sherman, but to prove his love for Marge he throws it back in the lake...
Fishman - re: the 55g scenario you paint is spot on. I felt semi-obliged to buy a TSN a few weeks ago, due entirely to the fact that the LFS were quoting the following:
5ft recommended tank size
' ok' with community so long as over 1/2 length of the TSN
Max size of 16 - 18 inch!!!
I felt that if i took it from sale and put it in my 8ft 250 gallon tank, I would have a little time to re-home this creature, as I have friends with huge tanks. However, I didn't eventually do this as I didn't feel comfortable, but if i had, would the guys on here have been 'understanding' or would I have got a bit of a bashing? Who knows.
Dinyar - totally agree - we all need to look at the bigger picture.
G/Sherman - such a list of the minimum requirements would be a very good idea. However, it is a very subjective topic area so could be the source of greater dispute!
5ft recommended tank size
' ok' with community so long as over 1/2 length of the TSN
Max size of 16 - 18 inch!!!
I felt that if i took it from sale and put it in my 8ft 250 gallon tank, I would have a little time to re-home this creature, as I have friends with huge tanks. However, I didn't eventually do this as I didn't feel comfortable, but if i had, would the guys on here have been 'understanding' or would I have got a bit of a bashing? Who knows.
Dinyar - totally agree - we all need to look at the bigger picture.
G/Sherman - such a list of the minimum requirements would be a very good idea. However, it is a very subjective topic area so could be the source of greater dispute!
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fishman33437
- Posts: 50
- Joined: 18 May 2004, 02:28
- Location 1: Southlake, TX
Steve, you wouldve gotten a bashing.... just like I always do. To make everyone happy....Ill start the sales process on my wife on turning my 20,000g pool in my back yard into a catfish pond. Its already got a filter built in! That should be fine for a SA pim biotope.
BTW, pinning some reasonable, basic large cat guidelines at the top of this topic might be helpful. I wrote a basic one on another website and most of the 'how big of a tank will I need?' and 'What can I keep with my RTC in a 55g...?" questions have gone away.
BTW, pinning some reasonable, basic large cat guidelines at the top of this topic might be helpful. I wrote a basic one on another website and most of the 'how big of a tank will I need?' and 'What can I keep with my RTC in a 55g...?" questions have gone away.
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general-sherman
- Posts: 134
- Joined: 24 Mar 2003, 02:42
- Location 1: australia/victoria
- Interests: southamerican fish
re.
Steve, Fishman, if I was in any way bashing I apologize. I get way too worked up about this issue.
And yes the 55g/4ft tank point Fishman made is very valid, really what can be done? Theres so many fish for sale and apparently the LFS (s) don't go out of their way to advise potential owners.
And yes the 55g/4ft tank point Fishman made is very valid, really what can be done? Theres so many fish for sale and apparently the LFS (s) don't go out of their way to advise potential owners.
Meanwhile, Homer catches a legendary catfish, General Sherman, but to prove his love for Marge he throws it back in the lake...
Hello all,
Well that is the main question - what can be done?
For many shops, money is the main objective. IT would be unfair to say this of all shops, but it is true of most that I know. When I'm just browsing around certain stores, I hear the most appalling advice being given - but what can be done? Interrupt? Who would you listen to - The shop (in most cases nationally known outlets) or some guy you've never met before?
It's sometimes a simple fact that a TSN may sell for say £100.00. To achieve that in the sales of smaller (more suitable fish) you might have to sell say 200 tetras @ 50p each? For large fishes, the shop also want to minimise the tank space devoted to it and the money 'wasted' on food for it. Pedelling it out the door asap is quite important to them - as long as you have water to put the fish in, hey! you'll do fine - that's good enough for them.
A major outlet in this country appear to achieve the majority of their turnover by selling some huge species, giving mis-information about them, then 6 months later accepting the fish once the hapless owner realises they can no longer look after it. The shop looks good because they've helped you out, but they offer no money for the fish - what good samaritans they are!
They then sell it for perhaps hundreds.
Now, I'm no mathmetician (well I am actually) but that's a very healthy turnover.
Anyway, I must stress that this is only my opinion.
I also won't mention the national company carrying out the above. But if such a large company is operating this policy - then smaller, local stores (which still need to compete against the 'big boys') may feel that adopting a similar strategy is the only option. Next thing you know - everyone APPEARS to be doing it?
At the end of the day, they are businesses. Does this make it ok?
Steve
P.S I also know some superb stores that are very well run, wiith owners who do have a conscious yet manage to make healthy profits too. See it can be done!!!!!!
Well that is the main question - what can be done?
For many shops, money is the main objective. IT would be unfair to say this of all shops, but it is true of most that I know. When I'm just browsing around certain stores, I hear the most appalling advice being given - but what can be done? Interrupt? Who would you listen to - The shop (in most cases nationally known outlets) or some guy you've never met before?
It's sometimes a simple fact that a TSN may sell for say £100.00. To achieve that in the sales of smaller (more suitable fish) you might have to sell say 200 tetras @ 50p each? For large fishes, the shop also want to minimise the tank space devoted to it and the money 'wasted' on food for it. Pedelling it out the door asap is quite important to them - as long as you have water to put the fish in, hey! you'll do fine - that's good enough for them.
A major outlet in this country appear to achieve the majority of their turnover by selling some huge species, giving mis-information about them, then 6 months later accepting the fish once the hapless owner realises they can no longer look after it. The shop looks good because they've helped you out, but they offer no money for the fish - what good samaritans they are!
They then sell it for perhaps hundreds.
Now, I'm no mathmetician (well I am actually) but that's a very healthy turnover.
Anyway, I must stress that this is only my opinion.
I also won't mention the national company carrying out the above. But if such a large company is operating this policy - then smaller, local stores (which still need to compete against the 'big boys') may feel that adopting a similar strategy is the only option. Next thing you know - everyone APPEARS to be doing it?
At the end of the day, they are businesses. Does this make it ok?
Steve
P.S I also know some superb stores that are very well run, wiith owners who do have a conscious yet manage to make healthy profits too. See it can be done!!!!!!
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general-sherman
- Posts: 134
- Joined: 24 Mar 2003, 02:42
- Location 1: australia/victoria
- Interests: southamerican fish
Damn
Wow Steve that is seriously worse than I thought...
Here TSN are not only rare, they are really expensive and even illegal in some states. But there are still problem tankbusters in Australia, mostly large natives EG. Lates calcarifer (Barramundi), Arius graeffei (Salmon catfish) and a truly giant Ariidae sp. I can't identify, being sold under the name "Piebald catfish, Maccullochella peelii peelii (Murray cod), a few other less common natives (cod & perch species mostly), and of course the good old Oscar & Metynnis sp. are problems. In my store I am forever encountering people with Silver dollars in tiny tanks, 30Lts etc. The aquarium I run has a policy towards fish over 12" (we don't sell them) and full care advice is given for the fish we do sell.
I have encoutered the TSN problem though...I went to an aquarium that was selling a bent-nosed Tiger catfish for $600. I asked the guy how big it would get (knowing full well how big it would get), and he asked me how big my tank was. Off the top of my head I said 4'x18"x18" and he told me it would be fine in that size tank. It won't grow longer then the tank is wide he said. I told him I'd have to think about and left in disgust. I reckon its nose was bent because of the 24"x18"x18" holding tank it was in! He was also offering Leiarius longibarbis for $995 with similar advice.
What can be done about that? It truly amazes me sometimes, LFS attitudes towards large fish. They are not the only ones to blame though...I have encountered plenty of customers who tell ME fish always grow to the size of the tank. The few times I have sold oscars people will always argue with the minimum 48"x18"x18" tank size in the care advice on the tank. The say another shop told them a standard 3' (standard in Oz is 36"x14"widex18") tank will be fine for an oscar. Very irritating, thats why I sell oscars very rarely now...if they want to cram them into a small tank they don't buy them from me.
Here TSN are not only rare, they are really expensive and even illegal in some states. But there are still problem tankbusters in Australia, mostly large natives EG. Lates calcarifer (Barramundi), Arius graeffei (Salmon catfish) and a truly giant Ariidae sp. I can't identify, being sold under the name "Piebald catfish, Maccullochella peelii peelii (Murray cod), a few other less common natives (cod & perch species mostly), and of course the good old Oscar & Metynnis sp. are problems. In my store I am forever encountering people with Silver dollars in tiny tanks, 30Lts etc. The aquarium I run has a policy towards fish over 12" (we don't sell them) and full care advice is given for the fish we do sell.
I have encoutered the TSN problem though...I went to an aquarium that was selling a bent-nosed Tiger catfish for $600. I asked the guy how big it would get (knowing full well how big it would get), and he asked me how big my tank was. Off the top of my head I said 4'x18"x18" and he told me it would be fine in that size tank. It won't grow longer then the tank is wide he said. I told him I'd have to think about and left in disgust. I reckon its nose was bent because of the 24"x18"x18" holding tank it was in! He was also offering Leiarius longibarbis for $995 with similar advice.
What can be done about that? It truly amazes me sometimes, LFS attitudes towards large fish. They are not the only ones to blame though...I have encountered plenty of customers who tell ME fish always grow to the size of the tank. The few times I have sold oscars people will always argue with the minimum 48"x18"x18" tank size in the care advice on the tank. The say another shop told them a standard 3' (standard in Oz is 36"x14"widex18") tank will be fine for an oscar. Very irritating, thats why I sell oscars very rarely now...if they want to cram them into a small tank they don't buy them from me.
Meanwhile, Homer catches a legendary catfish, General Sherman, but to prove his love for Marge he throws it back in the lake...
Well it't nice to hear of a shop with a responsible attitude to larger fish. There is also a shop in the UK which has a fantastic selection of fish - big and small. They always have RTC's in stock, but also have a 1500 gallon display tank with a 3ft adult in, and a little notice next to the tank with baby RTC's saying 'see display tank' (or words to that effect)!!
Again, there are many shops out there that do not sell big fish, but then again, don't sell very interesting fish either. In my area, it's all or nothing, i.e. you'll find a shop selling TSN like I described earlier, or a shop where the most exotic, unsual looking thing in their is the owner's wife (only kidding)
It would be nice for these shops to stock the 'bread and butter' fish, but also a loverly range of smaller, more manageable interesting fish. I have some large and small catfish and could not recommend my Synodontis Angelicus, Pim. Pictus or slightly larger, Hemisorubim Platyrynchos highly enough.
With my earlier comment about buying a TSN purely to try and pass the fish to a SUITABLE fishkeeper, this doesn't work and that's why I didn't do it in the end. If you do it, a week later, the shop has managed to find some other species that would prove equally unsuitable.
Yellow tailed catfish (TSN x RTC hybrids) are popping up everywhere over here now.
I have felt so strongly, I've even considered trying to work in the trade to see if I could help in some way. I'm not really sure how these national chains work though re: staff training etc.
Maybe they HAVE to tow the line and stick to company guidelines??
Steve
Again, there are many shops out there that do not sell big fish, but then again, don't sell very interesting fish either. In my area, it's all or nothing, i.e. you'll find a shop selling TSN like I described earlier, or a shop where the most exotic, unsual looking thing in their is the owner's wife (only kidding)
It would be nice for these shops to stock the 'bread and butter' fish, but also a loverly range of smaller, more manageable interesting fish. I have some large and small catfish and could not recommend my Synodontis Angelicus, Pim. Pictus or slightly larger, Hemisorubim Platyrynchos highly enough.
With my earlier comment about buying a TSN purely to try and pass the fish to a SUITABLE fishkeeper, this doesn't work and that's why I didn't do it in the end. If you do it, a week later, the shop has managed to find some other species that would prove equally unsuitable.
Yellow tailed catfish (TSN x RTC hybrids) are popping up everywhere over here now.
I have felt so strongly, I've even considered trying to work in the trade to see if I could help in some way. I'm not really sure how these national chains work though re: staff training etc.
Maybe they HAVE to tow the line and stick to company guidelines??
Steve
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general-sherman
- Posts: 134
- Joined: 24 Mar 2003, 02:42
- Location 1: australia/victoria
- Interests: southamerican fish
re.
A shop with a 1500gal RTC display tank giving good advice? That could only be Wharf Aquatics 
I think the large chains would definently have a set of guidelines for the selling of fish, mostly based on profit margins...or maybe they simply don't know or don't care about the advice their staff give out, then I suppose the final say rests on the branch managers. They'd have to determine species specific advice. And then the smaller shops have to compete with this...must get pretty nasty. Especially if they have customers coming in all the time telling them "the shop up the road said [ species x ] will only grow to 18inches."
These larger companys need to work out suitable advice for the sale of giant fish species. It would be better if they could cross some species off their stocklists permanently but I don't see that happening anytime soon. I know the "animal liberation" and "greenpeace" stuff was just being tossed around by idiots...but maybe if fish were cute, cuddly and furry they'd have more notice taken of them by these organisations. Imagine them breaking into your house at 2am to liberate your' fish! ...and then dumping them in a bucket of cold water to be transported to the beach!!! Animal liberationists aren't noted for their intelligence. I was reading about something that happened in England where they "liberated" 5000 ferrets (or some similar animal, minks maybe?) that then began to decimate native wildlife!
Yes it would be great if shops could offer suitable alternatives to giant cats. Large Synos, Pimelodus sp, Black lancers and Probably a million others that have similar habits to the large preds without the massive size. I reckon Sorubim lima is a more manageable alternative to a Tiger shovelnose. Limas are fantastic fish. Not just catfish either, there are thousands of fish in the "rare & unusual/oddball" category that don't grow too large.
I think the large chains would definently have a set of guidelines for the selling of fish, mostly based on profit margins...or maybe they simply don't know or don't care about the advice their staff give out, then I suppose the final say rests on the branch managers. They'd have to determine species specific advice. And then the smaller shops have to compete with this...must get pretty nasty. Especially if they have customers coming in all the time telling them "the shop up the road said [ species x ] will only grow to 18inches."
These larger companys need to work out suitable advice for the sale of giant fish species. It would be better if they could cross some species off their stocklists permanently but I don't see that happening anytime soon. I know the "animal liberation" and "greenpeace" stuff was just being tossed around by idiots...but maybe if fish were cute, cuddly and furry they'd have more notice taken of them by these organisations. Imagine them breaking into your house at 2am to liberate your' fish! ...and then dumping them in a bucket of cold water to be transported to the beach!!! Animal liberationists aren't noted for their intelligence. I was reading about something that happened in England where they "liberated" 5000 ferrets (or some similar animal, minks maybe?) that then began to decimate native wildlife!
Yes it would be great if shops could offer suitable alternatives to giant cats. Large Synos, Pimelodus sp, Black lancers and Probably a million others that have similar habits to the large preds without the massive size. I reckon Sorubim lima is a more manageable alternative to a Tiger shovelnose. Limas are fantastic fish. Not just catfish either, there are thousands of fish in the "rare & unusual/oddball" category that don't grow too large.
Meanwhile, Homer catches a legendary catfish, General Sherman, but to prove his love for Marge he throws it back in the lake...
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Jools
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I'd be happy to post an article or FAQs on responsible big fish keeping. My view (and hence the view of the site) is that there's nothing wrong with keeping many of the big cats in captivity but for everyone kept properly there are probably around 4000 that are not. But then, how many goldfish are kept properly and live a full life? Is it OK to keep captive bred large cats but not OK to wild caughts? If local people get more from selling baby large cats than they do for catching an adult ones, is that bad. If we stop all LFS selling big cats (somehow!) then this revenue stream dissapears for the locals and they're back on catching the big ones. It's a complex issue all right!
So, I'd be happy to here what content you guys might have and agree a way to get it onto the web.
Jools
So, I'd be happy to here what content you guys might have and agree a way to get it onto the web.
Jools
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