Hi All,
I was wondering wether breeders had any preferance on rough textured or smooth caves does a rough textured cave reduce eggs being pushed out , is there a bit more or a hygein issue with rough textured caves ?
Regards Chris
texture in breeding caves
-
pleco_breeder
- Posts: 892
- Joined: 09 Dec 2003, 16:51
- My articles: 2
- My cats species list: 17 (i:0, k:0)
- Location 1: Arizona
- Interests: breeding plecos and corys
- Contact:
I normally try to use slate caves for anything other than Ancistrus. They get flowerpot caves. This is not because of issues with eggs being dislodged as much as being able to custom fit the caves. On the same note, I can't recall having had a successful spawn of zebras in PVC. However, other breeders have used it with success. I assume that the fit has more to do with eggs being kicked out than the spawning surface. With the info at hand, I doubt there is much of a correlation.
Larry Vires
Larry Vires
Impossible only means that somebody hasn't done it correctly yet.
-
pleco_farmer
- Posts: 127
- Joined: 03 Apr 2004, 00:44
- I've donated: $50.00!
- Location 1: Wash, DC, USA
I think that the issue with smooth materials is more one of glossy versus matte. I was using a black PVC that had a glossy finish, which went unused until I roughed it up to knock down the shine. Maybe the glossy finish was unnatural?
Dark PVC is definitely preferred over white. I found some pond plumbing tubing in black which is readily accepted. Unlike PVC however, it floats, so I attach a slate base with silicone. Placing white PVC under some driftwood also helps to create a dark hole, which is generally preferred.
Ultimately, I too use slate to control the actual cave size. Also, you can taper the sides, from front to back, to create a more secure breeding spot.
As far as adhesion is concerned, I am looking at a clutch of ancistrus eggs which is attached to the roof of a dark PVC tube. It doesn't happen often, but things turn out okay. I believe that dislodged eggs are more a result of fit. My champion breeding ancistrus, 8" TL, refuses to accept any cave except for his tiny old tube which he has been using for over two years. I've replaced the tube with a variety of other devices which are refused for months. I put his old tube back, and he instantly returns. I don't see how the females even get inside. The upside is that I will come down in the morning to find two or three fertile clutches of eggs outside of the tube, two or three tired females, and a fat, happy male sitting in the tube.
Dark PVC is definitely preferred over white. I found some pond plumbing tubing in black which is readily accepted. Unlike PVC however, it floats, so I attach a slate base with silicone. Placing white PVC under some driftwood also helps to create a dark hole, which is generally preferred.
Ultimately, I too use slate to control the actual cave size. Also, you can taper the sides, from front to back, to create a more secure breeding spot.
As far as adhesion is concerned, I am looking at a clutch of ancistrus eggs which is attached to the roof of a dark PVC tube. It doesn't happen often, but things turn out okay. I believe that dislodged eggs are more a result of fit. My champion breeding ancistrus, 8" TL, refuses to accept any cave except for his tiny old tube which he has been using for over two years. I've replaced the tube with a variety of other devices which are refused for months. I put his old tube back, and he instantly returns. I don't see how the females even get inside. The upside is that I will come down in the morning to find two or three fertile clutches of eggs outside of the tube, two or three tired females, and a fat, happy male sitting in the tube.
-
xinguinsis
- Posts: 85
- Joined: 04 Feb 2004, 07:40
- Location 1: AUSTRALIA
caves
Thanks for the replies.Do you include cave length in this issue as I beleive my caves may be to long?
Regards Chris
Regards Chris
-
pleco_breeder
- Posts: 892
- Joined: 09 Dec 2003, 16:51
- My articles: 2
- My cats species list: 17 (i:0, k:0)
- Location 1: Arizona
- Interests: breeding plecos and corys
- Contact:
-
pleco_farmer
- Posts: 127
- Joined: 03 Apr 2004, 00:44
- I've donated: $50.00!
- Location 1: Wash, DC, USA
Yes, I agree. For rectangular openings, about twice the width, and a little shorter than fish with extended dorsal. Circular openings, between 1.5 and 2 times the width. ALthough, I am always amazed when two squeeze into small tubes, must be a security thing.
I try to keep as short as possible in length. Never more than 1.5x tl. because I strip most spawns into separate hatching tanks. Safest way to dislodge eggs is tilting the cave in the corner of a breeding trap. After awhile the male shifting around lets the eggs loose. If the tube is too long, the eggs tend to remain behind. I keep to these general guidelines and then let the fish decide.
I try to keep as short as possible in length. Never more than 1.5x tl. because I strip most spawns into separate hatching tanks. Safest way to dislodge eggs is tilting the cave in the corner of a breeding trap. After awhile the male shifting around lets the eggs loose. If the tube is too long, the eggs tend to remain behind. I keep to these general guidelines and then let the fish decide.
-
xinguinsis
- Posts: 85
- Joined: 04 Feb 2004, 07:40
- Location 1: AUSTRALIA
caves
Well it sounds like my caves should be allright.Pleco farmer how high are your results with stripping and what methods do you use to acheive this?I generally to leave the perants to do it but so far I've only had reasonable survival rates after about 4 or 5 days post spawn artificialy rearing when spawns have being turfed out.
Regards Chris
Regards Chris
-
pleco_farmer
- Posts: 127
- Joined: 03 Apr 2004, 00:44
- I've donated: $50.00!
- Location 1: Wash, DC, USA
Using a hanging hatching trap, solid mesh with an airstone for circulation, I am consistently around 90% survival to an inch for ancistrus, L-066, L260 and L-177. L-046 rates are about 80%, but statistically this is a rougher estimate due to smaller, less frequent spawns. (My L-046 numbers are coming up after introducing a solid bottom trap.)
These numbers do not acount for fungused spawns. With ancistrus, I do experience a fungused spawn about once in twenty. However, this is usually due to incomplete fertilization of the clutch. The pair may be inexperienced, the breeding site may be less than optimal, or the fish are not a good genetic mix. (With ancistrus, the line is somewhat less than pure!) So, by giving the fish some more time to figure it out, improving the breeding sites and shuffling "bad genes" even this number can be reduced.
It is difficult to compare production rates with the "natural" method, for the obvious reason that one can not count the fry upon emergence. It is near impossible to even count the eggs. One could count fry at some later point, but statistically, the samples would have to be quite large to account for differences in clutch size within a species. I can confidently state for the above listed species, that stripping eggs yields very good results.
However, survival isn't the only parameter that should be considered.
1. Transfer of a clutch to a trap is easy, and 100% of the eggs make it to the trap. Moving newly hatched fry is difficult and some losses will occur. Fry can be simply lost, or more likely injured.
2. Once the eggs have been secured, there are no worries about other fish that may be present in the tank, including dither fish.
3. By starting with the entire clutch, one can monitor the reproductive process and better identify optimal conditions for fry hatching and rearing. Again, when the fry are left to the male, you really have no idea how many eggs were laid, or how many hatched.
4. Most of my ancistrus cycle faster, closer to four weeks between spawns than the six or more that I was experiencing with natural hatching. I haven't experimented with any other species thoroughly enough to make any other claims. Secondly, I don't have to trigger ancistrus, so the cycle is left up to the fish.
So, since survival rates are not significantly different, it makes sense, when breeding on a larger scale, to reduce reduce labor input, improve monitoring capabilities, and get a better handle on the entire process, to strip eggs for artificial hatching.
As a hobbyist, I would let tham alone for the simple reason that is fun to watch! Isn't that the point of owning an aquarium, observing nature in action.
Finally, one more issue to consider. I was raising sturisoma by stripping spawns from the glass, moving them to shallow heated boxes and obtaining very good production rates. Then one day I was sitting in my basement surrounded by thousands of sturisoma fry. With just one pair of fish spawning, you are blessed with hundreds of fry every month, for almost the entire year. Now, I leave a pair sit in a quiet tank, and let nature take its course. The only extra care is high frequency low-volume water changes, and a bit of supplemental feeding. When juveniles approach two inches, I remove them to a rearing tank to put on another inch or so before sale. This method involves very little labor and supplies me with more than enough of this slow-moving, in a sales sense, species.
These numbers do not acount for fungused spawns. With ancistrus, I do experience a fungused spawn about once in twenty. However, this is usually due to incomplete fertilization of the clutch. The pair may be inexperienced, the breeding site may be less than optimal, or the fish are not a good genetic mix. (With ancistrus, the line is somewhat less than pure!) So, by giving the fish some more time to figure it out, improving the breeding sites and shuffling "bad genes" even this number can be reduced.
It is difficult to compare production rates with the "natural" method, for the obvious reason that one can not count the fry upon emergence. It is near impossible to even count the eggs. One could count fry at some later point, but statistically, the samples would have to be quite large to account for differences in clutch size within a species. I can confidently state for the above listed species, that stripping eggs yields very good results.
However, survival isn't the only parameter that should be considered.
1. Transfer of a clutch to a trap is easy, and 100% of the eggs make it to the trap. Moving newly hatched fry is difficult and some losses will occur. Fry can be simply lost, or more likely injured.
2. Once the eggs have been secured, there are no worries about other fish that may be present in the tank, including dither fish.
3. By starting with the entire clutch, one can monitor the reproductive process and better identify optimal conditions for fry hatching and rearing. Again, when the fry are left to the male, you really have no idea how many eggs were laid, or how many hatched.
4. Most of my ancistrus cycle faster, closer to four weeks between spawns than the six or more that I was experiencing with natural hatching. I haven't experimented with any other species thoroughly enough to make any other claims. Secondly, I don't have to trigger ancistrus, so the cycle is left up to the fish.
So, since survival rates are not significantly different, it makes sense, when breeding on a larger scale, to reduce reduce labor input, improve monitoring capabilities, and get a better handle on the entire process, to strip eggs for artificial hatching.
As a hobbyist, I would let tham alone for the simple reason that is fun to watch! Isn't that the point of owning an aquarium, observing nature in action.
Finally, one more issue to consider. I was raising sturisoma by stripping spawns from the glass, moving them to shallow heated boxes and obtaining very good production rates. Then one day I was sitting in my basement surrounded by thousands of sturisoma fry. With just one pair of fish spawning, you are blessed with hundreds of fry every month, for almost the entire year. Now, I leave a pair sit in a quiet tank, and let nature take its course. The only extra care is high frequency low-volume water changes, and a bit of supplemental feeding. When juveniles approach two inches, I remove them to a rearing tank to put on another inch or so before sale. This method involves very little labor and supplies me with more than enough of this slow-moving, in a sales sense, species.
-
xinguinsis
- Posts: 85
- Joined: 04 Feb 2004, 07:40
- Location 1: AUSTRALIA
caves
I was probably leaning toward moving the male spawn and all to a 35l tank 1 week post spawn had that work nicely a few times leaving them to hatch in the main tank they get through my trickle plate grids .
Regards Chris
Regards Chris
-
fishnut2
- Posts: 207
- Joined: 11 Dec 2003, 06:59
- I've donated: $151.00!
- My images: 4
- Spotted: 3
- Location 1: Chicago
I used to pull all my Ancistrus eggs, to atificially raise them. I felt that the parents would spawn sooner if they weren't taking care of the fry...that I was able to use a fungicide...and that I wouldn't have to disturb the parents when it was time to catch the fry.
I recently started to let the parents raise the fry (advise from Pleco_breeder) and have found the growth rate for the fry to be almost double! I'm relatively new to plecos...so I won't start guessing as to reasons why. I can only offer what I've seen, from spawns in my own tanks. I tried to siphon out the 1" fry today...and that had limited sucess. I pulled the filter and extra caves...and netted the rest out...with little problems. The male guarded another spawn of new free-swimmers in his terra cotta cave...while I was catching the fry. The 1" fry I netted out, attained 1" TL in just over a month. Since the male was guarding free-swimmers...it seems that it hasn't interupted thier spawning cycle, while raising the fry.
Getting back to the texture question. I use all clay caves for my Ancistrus (smooth/non-glossy) My breeders originally used the flowerpots and saucer bottoms...but have chosen the terra-cotta caves since they've become more experienced. I preferred the flowerpots and saucers when I was still pulling the eggs. They still have all 3 choices in thier tank...and choose the terra-cotta caves 90% of the time now.
My suggestion is this! Try both ways...artificial and parent raised. See what works best for YOU
Rich
I recently started to let the parents raise the fry (advise from Pleco_breeder) and have found the growth rate for the fry to be almost double! I'm relatively new to plecos...so I won't start guessing as to reasons why. I can only offer what I've seen, from spawns in my own tanks. I tried to siphon out the 1" fry today...and that had limited sucess. I pulled the filter and extra caves...and netted the rest out...with little problems. The male guarded another spawn of new free-swimmers in his terra cotta cave...while I was catching the fry. The 1" fry I netted out, attained 1" TL in just over a month. Since the male was guarding free-swimmers...it seems that it hasn't interupted thier spawning cycle, while raising the fry.
Getting back to the texture question. I use all clay caves for my Ancistrus (smooth/non-glossy) My breeders originally used the flowerpots and saucer bottoms...but have chosen the terra-cotta caves since they've become more experienced. I preferred the flowerpots and saucers when I was still pulling the eggs. They still have all 3 choices in thier tank...and choose the terra-cotta caves 90% of the time now.
My suggestion is this! Try both ways...artificial and parent raised. See what works best for YOU
Rich
There seems to be a variety of caves that are being used for these fish. Descriptions are really good but can we take some time to post pictures of the caves that we use?
I found that round caves were not prefered by the L134s and Peppermints that I keep. They would also not use the caves that I made from all tiles.
I have since made caves that are PVC pipe blocked at one end, cut in half and supper glued to a tile. My L134s prefer caves made from 25mm and 32mm pipe and the Peppermints ones from 40mm and 50mm pipe. The caves are all 150mm deep.
Adam
40mm and 50mm caves.
Peppermints in 40mm and 50mm cave
All tile caves rejected by peppermints and L134s[/img]
I found that round caves were not prefered by the L134s and Peppermints that I keep. They would also not use the caves that I made from all tiles.
I have since made caves that are PVC pipe blocked at one end, cut in half and supper glued to a tile. My L134s prefer caves made from 25mm and 32mm pipe and the Peppermints ones from 40mm and 50mm pipe. The caves are all 150mm deep.
Adam
40mm and 50mm caves.
Peppermints in 40mm and 50mm cave
All tile caves rejected by peppermints and L134s[/img]
-
xinguinsis
- Posts: 85
- Joined: 04 Feb 2004, 07:40
- Location 1: AUSTRALIA
cave
Hi Adam,
You don't think those tile caves would be more readily accepted if they were a much darker colour?
How your rainbows.
Regards Chris
You don't think those tile caves would be more readily accepted if they were a much darker colour?
How your rainbows.
Regards Chris
They might accept them if they were a darker colour. I'm just looking around for some to try. However I think the "tight" fit is more important. Interestingly I made a similiar cave with a side enterance, instead of in the end. These are the last ones to be occuplied by both the L134s and Peppermints.
Still like to see photos of other peoples caves.
Adam
Still like to see photos of other peoples caves.
Adam