Setting up tank to breed L46

fmueller · Post by **fmueller** » 02 Mar 2004, 04:35

I recently inquired where to buy L46 in the US, and another forum member offered me 6 that he had breed

They are currently on standby, and today I set up a tank for them. Unfortunately I am one of the old fashioned folks with a film camera, and my pictures have not been developed yet, but I made a scetch of how I set it up:

It's a 29G tank from Walmart that came with a black plastic hood. I also got the Walmart stand, which actually looks for better than I expected. I am not going to use the filter and heater that came with the tank, but am running an Eheim 2217 that powers a DIY 6-jet UGJ system (http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/ug_jets.php). This setup should provide great filtration for this tank size as well as plenty of current. Since it doesn't do much for aeration, I will also put in an Aquaclear powerhead 301 with the venturi feature that will probably blow along the backwall from the left. I'll initially use a 200W Via Aqua Titanium heater and will be saving up for one of those fancy flow through heater from Pet Solutions (http://www.petsolutions.com/cgi-bin/cgi ... 150000&l=2). Both, the heater and the power head are currently on their way from BigAl's. I am filtering over some lava rock for bio filtration and lots of filter floss. I have started to cycle today by adding some Neon Tetras.

I haven't got any plants yet, but am planning of Java Fern and Java Moss. The backgound is slate from a nearby creek (free, no sharp corners) that I have siliconed directly to the backwall of the tank. Substrate is 3M Colorquartz (black, T-grade), which looks like black sand. To the left and right of the tank are two massive pieces of bogwood from a nearby forest, which are not quite willing to sink by themselves yet. I am weighing them down with rocks until they will. In the middle will be caves built from the same slate as the background. I'll put them in as soon as I don't need the rocks any more to hold down the wood. I cleaned both the rocks and wood with the power washer at the local car wash.

Any comments or suggestions are most welcome!

Wood · Post by **Wood** » 02 Mar 2004, 16:43

Good luck with your project. I will be waiting to see how you do. I can only say I would be very careful getting wood in the wild.

pleco_breeder · Post by **pleco_breeder** » 02 Mar 2004, 18:39

fmueller,

You may want to consider placing some rocks or wood around the cave that you intend the dominant male to stay in. Zebras seem to prefer caves which are close to other rubble and are less stressed while guarding eggs and fry. Therefore, less likely to prematurely expell the eggs or fry

Larry Vires

fmueller · Post by **fmueller** » 02 Mar 2004, 19:27

Thanks for the responses. Once I get some photos this might become clearer, but my whole tank will be full of wood and rocks, so having too little rubble around the caves will not be an issue

Wood - what particular concerns do you have regarding the wood? - pardon the pun

magnum4 · Post by **magnum4** » 02 Mar 2004, 20:11

Wood - what particular concerns do you have regarding the wood? - pardon the pun

Main concern is that there is no rotting parts to the wood. and the less tanin the better if you live in a soft water area it could drag the pH down quite fast if your putting a lot in.

Are you just putting the wood in because you like the look? as zebras are not a species that needs wood.

Wood · Post by **Wood** » 02 Mar 2004, 22:15

Magnum pretty well covered it.

Crazie.Eddie · Post by **Crazie.Eddie** » 02 Mar 2004, 23:44

The eheim 2217 may not be strong enough to power the UGJ. You may wear out the motors quicker. Your best bet is to use pump as described in the article you posted.

FYI, neons are not a hardy fish for cycling. They're very sensitive to ammonia and nitrites and may not last even a week. The easiest would be to use guppies or danios, which are hardier.

fmueller · Post by **fmueller** » 03 Mar 2004, 00:35

Main concern is that there is no rotting parts to the wood. and the less tanin the better if you live in a soft water area it could drag the pH down quite fast if your putting a lot in.

OK, I wanted to make sure that it's only that. The wood I am using has been cleaned thouroughly using a high power washer to remove all loose parts. I have watered it for about a week before I put it in the tank, and water discoloration was negligible from day 1 in the tub - barely noticable in the tank.

Are you just putting the wood in because you like the look? as zebras are not a species that needs wood.

Pretty much. It's currently my only tank but I used to have, and son will have again, East African cichlids, with whom wood is of course a big no-no. So this is my chance for a tank with wood.

The eheim 2217 may not be strong enough to power the UGJ. You may wear out the motors quicker. Your best bet is to use pump as described in the article you posted.

Are you kidding? The pump in the 2217 turns over more than 260gph - that's more than most of the cheap pumps people use for UGJ systems have to show for. Also, my previous Eheim classic filters laster about 15 years each, so if this one dies a fortnight early I can live with it - especially since I got it for cheap from eBay. Eheim pumps are tough - that's what makes this company what it is!

FYI, neons are not a hardy fish for cyc ... e hardier.

The public opinion on Neons seem to have changed a lot since I last had fish - which was from 1977 to 1995 in Germany. All my tanks were cycled with Neons, and they always did a great job for me. As we speak, they are having a ball in the current in front of one of the UGJs, but you are not the only one who has warned me - the girl in the shop where I bought them informed me that they are exempt from warranty 'due to their delicate nature'

I mainly bought them for good luck, because 10 Neons were the first fish I ever had, and because I plan to keep them as by-fish with the L46. I HATE guppies and danios

Crazie.Eddie · Post by **Crazie.Eddie** » 03 Mar 2004, 01:01

Are you kidding? The pump in the 2217 turns over more than 260gph - that's more than most of the cheap pumps people use for UGJ systems have to show for

I'm not kidding. The filters are made to be used normally. If you're using a UGJ, the additional force to get through the smaller opening might take a toll on the motors. Remember, it's going through allot more force to drive it through the pipes on the UGJ. I wanted to use Undergravel filters, instead of using a powerhead, I would have it go through an Eheim filter. I contacted Eheim and they stated ONLY they're professional filters have strong enough motors to do that.

fmueller · Post by **fmueller** » 03 Mar 2004, 02:04

Well, I appreciate the advice, and it is interesting to hear that Eheim actually advised against doing this, but I think I'll give it a try and see how I go. The 2217 currently powers 6 jets. Their combined openings aren't actually that small. I bet if I measured the outlet area it would be far larger than the one in a standard Eheim spray bar, let alone in the Eheim diffusor, which they sell specifically for use with the 2217. Now, that is one small opening that you have in there!

I have a hard time believing that the back-pressure my UGJ system puts on the filter pump is actually larger than the one from the diffusor. At any rate, I believe this difference would likely be smaller than the one I would expect if there was too much gunk in the filter and hoses so that it almost cloggs up - which I had happening quite a bit with my 2213 when I was a kid. I never saw any adverse effects, and as I said, the filter pump lasted for about 15 years.

Also, the 2217 actually has a considerably larger pump (20W, 1000L/h) than some of the Eheim Pro Series filters (2222: 8W, 500L/h; 2224: 8W, 700L/h), but I can see why Eheim would like to sell the Pro Series Filters instead of the cheaper classics

Crazie.Eddie · Post by **Crazie.Eddie** » 03 Mar 2004, 03:11

I contacted a technician, not a sales person. I guess it would comparing a Porche 911 to a Ford F150 truck. The Porche can outpower the Ford no problem, when you are considering of towing a boat, the Porche motor wouldn't be able to take it.

Just saying that with all the considerations your taking to make the tank a good tank for the L-046, I thought you might be as careful with the equipment. It always helps to do a little research now, than be sorry for it later.

fmueller · Post by **fmueller** » 03 Mar 2004, 13:30

Well, you were right about the Neons - I lost four of them last night, and the other ones are not looking to swell either.

Must have been the Ammonia spike that finished them off. One of them was looking a bit shaky last night. I didn't think he would actually die, but once there was one dead body in the tank things probably quickly turned for the worse. I really never had any problems with Neons before and have always used them for cycling, but I seem to recall that those were regular Neons, whereas these might be red Neons, which where kinda rare in the olden days.

I have exchanged about 30% of the water and raised the temp a bit because I thought this might help the others. I might quickly duck out to Walmart to get an extra power head to provide more oxygen. I'll also chuck some carbon into the Eheim - currently only have some in the Powerfilter that came with the tank.

Anything else I can do? I don't have another tank to put them in and I am sure the LFS won't want them back

Frank

Post by **Barbie** » 03 Mar 2004, 17:08

You can buy biospira. It will at least speed up the process of the bacteria colonization, at this point. You can also do some 10-20% water changes to keep the nitrites from peaking so hard they finish everyone off. Hope that helps!

Barbie

Crazie.Eddie · Post by **Crazie.Eddie** » 03 Mar 2004, 17:49

Sorry to hear about the fish. The neons you purchased may have been a new shipment, therefore, still trying to adjust to the waters at the LFS. When I look for sensitive fish, like Neons, I normally get the ones that have been in the LFS for about a week or so. I make sure the LFS is using the same water I am, that way, it only has to acclimate to my water temp, and not pH and such. I learned my lesson, since I bought 6 Cardinals from an LFS, which ALL died. The LFS also had no warranty on them. I found a closer LFS, using the same waters I am, and bought 6. It's been 2 months now and no deaths.

Anyway, the small water changes as Barbie mentioned should help. The nitrifying bacteria colony has already started. The bactera is already contained inside the fishes gills. One way to reduce the ammonia is to reduce the feedings. Only feed every other day. Also apply Stress Coat, or something similar.

Good luck.

fmueller · Post by **fmueller** » 03 Mar 2004, 18:57

I have been calling around for Bio Spira, but the few shops in my area that bothered to get the special fridge seem out of stock at present

The Neons were at the LFS for at least a week, because I had seen them a couple of times. I removed 5 dead ones, one is still shaky (hanging around the surface), 3 still look OK, and one is missing. The missing one is a bit of a worry, but I can't find the little bugger for the life of me.

I did a 30% water change, which helped somewhat, and also added a little aquatech power head from Walmart, which is blasting oxygen in there like no tomorrow, and seems to be helping the survivors a lot. It's the noisiest pump I ever used though - hope the one I have coming from BigAl (shipped out today) will be a bit more quiet.

I can't believe my cycling experiment has turned into such a desaster. Should have asked what fish to use first, and actually taken people's advice

fmueller · Post by **fmueller** » 03 Mar 2004, 19:01

Oh feeding - I basically haven't fed them at all - just a couple of tiny flakes of spirulina last night. The Neons all look very well fed, and I figured they could go without food for a while. Don't think I'll feed them today, maybe a very small amount tomorrow?

Crazie.Eddie · Post by **Crazie.Eddie** » 03 Mar 2004, 20:26

No problem, but we all make mistakes and learn from them, hopefully. The fish deaths is just natures way of saying there is not enough bacteria to support the tank. There will be some deaths until the tank becomes stable enough to support the bioload. Just wait it out for now. After a week or so, start feeding the fish as normal. This will then increase the amount of ammonia being produced.

It's not necessary to use any additional bacteria cultures. Yours has already started. All you can do is to wait it out and hopefully the surviving fish can make it through. Actually, another cheap method for a bacteria starter is available free at your LFS...WATER. Most LFS do not mind giving you some water from their tanks. This already has bacteria. Other's are, filter pads, media, etc. that they may throw out during their maintenance. I'm sure they don't mind giving you material that they will throw away. Then just drop them into your tank. As long as you use the items I listed, from an established tank and put them in yours, there should be no problems. Even if you had an already established tank at your house, you could do the same. Then just run the filters and pumps as normal, but make sure you remove any ammonia reducers, such as zeolite.

When I had a new tank I was going to setup...whenever I did water changes on my other tanks, I would just remove the water from the other tanks and put them into the new tank. Instead of throwing away the carbon media from my filters, I would just put them into a media bag (used stocking also works) and just leave it in the new tank as well. I would also suck up some waste using a turkey baster from the other tanks and put them into the new tank. I would still wait a month or so before I cycle with any fish. This helps the fish from going through drastic ammonia and nitrite spikes.

If you want some good information, you can read the Guidelines for Stocking an Aquarium...

New-Tank Cycle (Ecological Break-in) Information:
Start with 25% of the total capacity of the aquarium in inches. Wait at least two weeks before adding more fish. Waiting three weeks is better. Do a 25% water change before you add new fish, not immediately after. Add in increments of 100% of the number of inches of fish the aquarium already contains (if you already have two inches of fish, only buy two inches more), until the tank is stocked to 90% of the total capacity. Then allow the growth of the fish you have to fill the aquarium to capacity.

There are alot of informative Aquarium Articles and Aquarium FAQs that you can read through, at AquariumPros.com, regarding any additional questions/issues about your tanks and/or fish.

Good luck

fmueller · Post by **fmueller** » 03 Mar 2004, 21:20

Thanks Eddie. I do know the theory and I had various tanks for about 18 years before I moved out from home and had to give up. That's been 10 years ago and I'd like to get back into the hobby now. I am more of a cichlid man (just some catfish are irresitible

), so I have read all the stuff on http://www.cichlid-forum.com. I am also a chemist by trade, and the article they have on the nitrogen cycle is the most comprehensive and easiest to understand I have found yet: http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/cycling.php

I simply overestimated the toughness of the neons - I swear I just dumped 10 of them into my first tank in 1977 as soon as it was set up and they were totally fine. The ones I have now are larger, and with hindsight I'd bet they are a different species. Another mistake was not having a venturi type power head installed from day 1 - I was waiting for one from BigAls to arrive, and they have been painfully slow with my order. The filter just powers the UGJs so that there was very little surface movement. The lack of oxygen of course must have made things worse once the Neons had trouble with their gills because of the ammonia. Another contributing factor might have been that I have no plants in their yet.

To some people the loss of some Neons might not seem like a big deal, but I like the little fellows a lot, and I hate to see them suffer and die due to my poor judgement. I hope the rest of them will pull through. If not I think I'll get some Bio Spira, even if I have to drive a couple of hours to get it, and try my luck with a fishless cycle http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/f ... ycling.php

BTW - my understanding is that very few of the bacteria are in the water, so adding water from LFS (which I did) has almost no effect. Gravel might do the job or - as you said - filter material. It is just that all my local stores have tanks that are in such bad shape that I am reluctant to use bacteria from them for fear what else I might catch. There is only one small store up in Cleveland, which is great, but that's a pretty long drive from here, and the guy has quite restricted opening hours, so I can't make it there right now.

Crazie.Eddie · Post by **Crazie.Eddie** » 03 Mar 2004, 22:03

The link you posted regarding the nitrogen cycle is very easy to understand.

Yes, there is very little bacteria in water, but it's some that can be used and will multiply. There is a debate with those bacteria starters, some say they work, some say they don't. I used to use them before, but now I don't. My reason is, bacteria need food and O2 to survive. Unless these bacteria have just newly been bottled or in some kind of suspended state, will they survive. Some of these bottles sit in stores for weeks, maybe even months, so I'm thinking how do they live? Unfortunately, I'm not a biologists nor do I have a strong background in it.

I just know bacteria will be in the everywhere in an established tank...water, decor, filters, media, even fish. I haven't tried the fishless cycle using ammonia and a bit cautious doing so. My understanding, you are only supposed to use pure 100% ammonia, unless you have access to a chemicals in a lab, the next solution is through the store. I have heard, some bottles marked, even though they state that it is 100% ammonia, might contain other chemicals.

You may had been lucky with the tetras you first cycled along time ago. They might have been the one of the healthiest stocks or the LFS maybe using the same water source you are. Therefore, it only had to adjust to ammonia/nitrite spikes and not pH or hardness.

I, too, plan to breed L-046s also, and even though I may be (hope and praying) that I will get 1 or 2 around May or June, I am planning to start to cycle a 20 gallon tank now. I, currently, breed guppies as feeders and some I keep to give to friends/relatives, so I plan to use them for cycling as well. Hopefully your stock and mine will be very prolific.

fmueller · Post by **fmueller** » 04 Mar 2004, 03:13

Hi Eddie,

OK, I really didn't want to hear that there could be a problem with the 2217 and UGJ, because that system just looks great now and I thought I had it all figured out. However, on the AquariumPros site you recommended is a very nice article on pump head pressure, which kinda opened my eyes - it is not only the outlet surface that matters, but also the length of the piping and the fact that the jets are at the bottom of the tank. I emailed them for a flow chart curve of the 2217 and 2222, but they only have the charts for stand alone pumps, not the pumps that are part of a filter. At any rate, they didn't think it would be a good idea to hook up an UGJ system to a canister filter.

Since the power head I am currently using is unbearably loud, I think I might get rid of that thing and put an Eheim diffusor on the 2217 for oxygenation. Then I need a submersible pump to power my UGJ system, and I have emailed AquariumPros for advice on a suitable pump.

Again, many thanks for your help. I hope the L46 will breed like rabbits in your tank

Maybe we can swap some a few years down the track to get new blood into our colonies!

Greetings

Frank

Crazie.Eddie · Post by **Crazie.Eddie** » 04 Mar 2004, 03:40

Glad I was able to help. I like forums such as these, since it's just a wealth of knowledge. Both being hobbyst, I want to ensure that you have the best and trouble free tanks, especially for the zebras. Like I mentioned before, you maybe a future source for future stock of mine, so I want to make sure they're as healthy as possible ;)

Whiteysfish · Post by **Whiteysfish** » 05 Mar 2004, 01:00

Well me and my buddy have been breeding these L046s for a while now, and man do they breed good. The males get extremely fussy when guarding the nest. I would also say in response to some of your statements, wood is not a necessity. Also, I keep east african fish (malawi's) and wood is definitely part of the natural habitat. If you do decide to go with wood, Id boil it for about 30 minutes to be sure the tanina nd all bacteria are disposed of. Just my opinions though. Good luck!

fmueller · Post by **fmueller** » 05 Mar 2004, 20:54

Good to hear that L46 don't seem to be all that hard to breed, but I guess I'll find out about that soon enough

Regarding the wood, the pieces only just fit in the tank hight-wise. Cooking is one of my other hobbies, and I have a pretty large stock-pot, but there is no way that the wood could fit in there, so there isn't a chance that I could boil them. I used the ultra-high-pressure bay at the local car wash to clean them, and they have been in the water for a while now. As far as I can see they lower the pH a bit - which is actually a good thing since the pH of my tap-water is 8.4 and the wood brings it to 7.6. Water discoloration due to the wood is negligible even without using carbon. With carbon my water is crystal clear. Unless somebody convinces me that L46 are really incompatible with wood, I think I'll keep the setup as is.

A little follow up on the Eheim 2217/UGJ issue. I emailed back and forth a few times with who I believe is the pump expert at AquariumPros (Dave). After telling him that Eheim advises against using Classic Series filters with UGJ systems, but says Pro Series filters would be ok, he responded:

"I don't know why Eheim would recommend that since the 2222 is a smaller, square, version of the classic series. The other differences are the dedicated media trays and a priming feature. You are correct, the 2217 has the stronger pump."

Also, after closely examining my UGJ system (I submitted the original UGJ article on Cichlid-forum, a sketch of my setup, and responded to some of Daves question), and asked about a suitable submersible pump to power it, he responded:

"A canister filter can easily be used for that application. I would recommend either the 2217 or the 2226, NOT the 2222."

The setup seems to be running very well with the 2217 so far - the filter head is actually cooler than I seem to recall from my 2215 and 2213 - so I guess I will not be in a hurry to change it.

I've also got an Aquaclear 301 power head in from BigAls, and it's no comparison in noise to the awful thing I got at Walmart - the 301 is barely noticable.

A last word on the Neons - the last one gave up last night, so I got myself some NH3 today, and have started a fishless cycle.