Tatia intermedia spawned!

[bekateen]

I checked the tank again today. Collected 10 more live fry off the Matten and witnessed over a dozen dead in the Matten (I'm sure some of the dead fry are the same ones I saw yesterday, but others look freshly dead); I also witnessed another 10+ fry alive and swimming loose in the tank. Then I removed the mop from beside the Matten and rinsed it in water, from which I collected another approx 135 live fry and about 4 more dead fry from the mop.

Since the fry move so fast in the cup, I video record them then freeze-frame it to do a head count. On today's harvest, I counted 133 more fry in the first try and 136 fry in the second. Thus my estimate of 135.


After an hour, I rinsed the mop again and collected 10 more fry.

Together with yesterday's harvest, I've got about 255 live fry!

My conclusion? The mop doesn't stop the fry from burrowing into the Matten, but the mop is very appealing to the fry and it's much easier, less stressful and safer to collect fry off the mop. I think I'll add more mops along the matten going forward.

Cheers, Eric

[bekateen]

P.s., my daughter took this photo yesterday. Apparently this is what I look like when inspecting the fry tray. Ugh, with that extra chin, it looks like I have two mouths.

[bekateen]

Another attempt to harvest Tatia intermedia fry from the tank today. First I collected 12 more fry from the matten. It seems peculiar that I never get more than about 10 or so from the matten even though I see more alive in the foam. That really comes down to how deeply the fish have burrowed into the foam as to whether I can suck them out with the turkey baster. Also, all truth be told, leaning over the tank eventually hurts my lower back, so the operation is somewhat self-limiting.

Then I turned to the two mops in the tank, the large old mop and the smaller extra mop I added to the tank yesterday. Both mops are positioned against the surface of the matten, the new mop near the posterior wall of the tank and the old mop towards the front pane of glass. I collected only 6 fry from the new mop, but a lot of fry from the old mop. As time goes on since hatching I feel like I'm collecting more dead fry than before.

In total, from both mops, I collected approximately 125 (+/- 4) fry. About 8 were dead when I collected them, but I'll leave them in the count just so I get a better estimate of the total number of eggs originally laid [but acknowledging the estimate will never count those dead in the matten or those still loose (dead and alive) in the tank].

Then I turned to the fry already in the fry tray, which I collected yesterday and the day before. I knew some of them were weak swimmers when I caught them. Today I removed between 15-20 dead fry from the tray.

Photos below show only today's harvest from the mops, including dead and alive fry. From my video, I screen-captured three different frames, which I used to count the fry. As before, I avoided counting objects that might just be reflections the walls.

Overall, across both days, I've collected between 390-400 fry, about 30-50 were/are dead already or died since collection.


Cheers, Eric

[bekateen]

One more collection today. In total, I collected 102 (+/- 2) fry, 4 of which were obviously dead: 21 live fry were suctioned from the matten or from loose in the tank (16 initially, which are included in the photos below, plus 6 more later), 8 live fry from the recently-added smaller green mop, and the rest from the original mop, a large brown & green mop (estimate 73 fry from the large mop, including the 4 dead fry from it).

In total, I've collected about 490-500 fry. There are still live fry swimming around on the tank (I can see them but can't catch them) and there are many dead fry (now old, I think) in the matten, so the original spawn was well over 500 fry. I still don't know if that was one female's output or more than one's, but @Catfish-ologist tells me he has one female that puts out 450 eggs per spawn, so this could be from one female.

The bigger mystery for me is, where the heck are these fish dumping their egg masses? This is the second spawn where I didn't find the bulk of the eggs (in this case, none of them). 500+ eggs sitting in a tank for days before hatching should have been visible and I inspect the tank daily, often 2-3x/day. I know the kinon and other plants make the habitat very complex, but sheesh! What I haven't been inspecting are all the pleco caves in the tank. Any chance these fish are spawning in caves and I'm just missing that? My

Tatia gyrinus

laid their last eggs as a mass in a cave-like clay "calvus" (although she may have just dumped unfertilized eggs, as all the eggs melted within 48 hours).

Sweet mysteries of life!

Cheers, Eric

[bekateen]

Caught 22 more live tonight, and two more dead.

After that, I removed about 10 dead from the fry box. These are fragile fry, or maybe 500 in one breeder box is too many.

[bekateen]

This morning I started by removing 24 dead fry from the fry tray. Then I collected 12 live fry from the Matten and an additional 41 fry from the two mops. Of the 41 fry, I removed 4 that were already dead in the mop before doing the photo count, so 37 live fry in mops.

Total collected now exceeds 550, although many (about 15% is a rough guess) have been or eventually died already. That still doesn't count all the live and dead fry in the tank.

Cheers, Eric

[bekateen]

Feeding these babies is a bit of a mystery for me, as I'm not sure how big a bite they can take at this age. So I'm throwing a lot of different foods at them:

1) Live microworms (ideal, but I can't produce them fast enough for this many fry)
2) San Francisco Bay brand frozen baby brine shrimp
3) San Francisco Bay brand frozen cyclops
4) Hikari "First Bites"
5) SeaChem Nutridiet Shrimp Flakes (pulverized with a mortar & pestle until it is a fine dust)

I've always wondered how close in size the frozen cyclops are to the frozen baby brine, so today I put both under a microscope and took photos. The two are almost the same size, but the frozen BB are definitely smaller overall. That said, I get the impression from my photos that the bigger size of the cyclops is more their length than any other dimension, whereas the frozen BB are spherical, so while I think the frozen BB are better for smaller mouths, the uniform diameter of them might make them bigger in one dimension compared to the seemingly flat frozen cyclops.

Anyone have better info than that?

Cheers, Eric

[characinkid]

Hi Eric, Congrats on getting so many fry! I've used microworms and decap BS eggs as first foods in the past along with Hikari First bites. Never quite sure which one they are eating but it does seem to give me higher success rate than when I first started and did Microworms only.
Good luck.

[bekateen]

Never quite sure which one they are eating but it does seem to give me higher success rate than when I first started and did Microworms only.

Thanks. Yeah, that's my issue too. What are they actually eating? That's why I use so many foods at once

Cheers, Eric

[bekateen]

Today it's a case of diminishing returns. First, I removed 24 dead fry from the fry tray. Then, I collected 26 live fry (and 2 dead) from the two mops and I collected 8 more live fry from the Matten; total new fry = 36.

Combined with previous numbers, total collected from the tank (live and dead) approximately 590.

I still see live fry swimming in the tank, with several of them hiding under the false floor. I can also see a few of the fry have made it all the way across the Matten and are just a millimeter or two away from the last pore before they are able to escape into the chamber behind the Matten, where they might get sucked into a canister filter or pumped back into the gravel bed of the waterfall. Neither of those will end well although the canister offers a very minor chance of temporary survival, if I clean the canister soon.

Cheers, Eric

[bekateen]

Began today by removing 34 dead fry from the tray, then went on to collect 48(!) live fry from the Matten, with one of those live fry being collected from the back side of the Matten, in the filter compartment with the canister filter intake and the pond pump intake. That little one doesn't realize how lucky it is!

I also collected only 13 live fry from the two mops. Is it a quirk that the number of accessible (not buried too deeply) fry in the Matten was so high today but the number in the mops was low? Probably yes, but who knows. Just glad to be in the positive again (more new live from tank than dead removed from tray).

Total live intake today, 61 more fry. Combined with previous catches, this puts the number of fry at over 610! These fry are still the same sizes as the fry from the last few days, I still expect they're all from one night's spawn, although I still have no clue if they're all from one mom, vs. from multiple females ovipositing on the same night.

Cheers,
Eric

[bekateen]

Now it's moved to the negative: Collected 18 live

Tatia intermedia

fry from the mops and another 8 live fry from the Matten, total 26 new live fry, but removed 40 dead fry from the tray.

Now that I split a third or more of the fry from the tray to the 10 gal tank, I can't accurately track losses anymore, since they disappear in the 10 gal tank. So this loss of 40 is just from the fry tray in the parent's tank. Hopefully survival is better in the 10 gal tank.

Total fry collected as of today is over 636, probably over 640. I started collecting these fry 7 days ago (exactly), and they were probably a couple of days old when I started seeing them. I'd hope by now their numbers start to stabilize in terms of deaths per day; they're well into feeding at this point and I see them skimming the water surface and scouring the tray floor after dark, so they're eating something.

Cheers, Eric

[bekateen]

Here's an update on some of the new fry which I discovered January 17. I say that because in the video, I say (wrongly) that the fish are 3-4 weeks old. In fact they're just 2 weeks old, maybe a day or two more at most.

After splitting the fry into two groups, with about 2/3 of them still in the white fry tray, I made a video tonight when I fed them frozen baby brine shrimp after lights out. The only light in the room is from a nearby computer monitor.

I think I've hit a point where they're past that big wave of mortality. Earlier this week, there were a few days where I was pulling 30-45 dead fish out of the tank each day. For the last 3 days, I've been removing 3-5 dead fish per day. As a rough estimate, in this group, I'd estimate I still have 70-100 fry left. I'm okay with that.

Unfortunately, I don't know if the other 1/3 of the fry are doing as well, since they have disappeared in the 10 gal tank. I don't know if they just hide better, or if the larger babies (from the November spawn) are eating them. Time will tell because I started with 17 fry from the first spawn in the 10 gal and added about 100-200 fry from the new spawn. So whatever I have beyond 17 fry should be a reasonable estimate of survival in the 10 gal tank.

Cheers,
Eric

Tatia intermedia fry 2 weeks old feeding after dark

[bekateen]

Today I collected all the fry in the 10 gal tank today, to see how their doing, to see how many of the young fry survived (from the 1/3 of the big spawn) which I moved to this tank with the older fry, and to take a 3 month growth measurement on the oldest fry.

First lesson, I don't think moving the group of small fry to the 10 gal tank with the bigger fry did me much good. I started this 10 gal tank with 17 fry from the first spawn, then added somewhere around 100-200 fry from the second spawn. I now have only 16 fry, although the oldest fry are pretty big and there are definitely some of the younger fry remaining. That means I lost a few of the bigger fry and and made up for that loss with almost an equal number of tiny fry surviving.

The biggest fry from the first spawn, which is about 1-2 weeks short of 3 months old, is now 25mm SL, a very good-looking little fish. The smallest fry in the 10 gal tank I didn't measure for size, but it's my impression they're slightly larger than their siblings in the fry tray. However, I have between 50-75 (maybe more) surviving in the fry tray, so lesson learned - keep the fry in the tray as long as possible.

Also I don't know if any of the smallest fry in the 10 gal tank were eaten by the larger fish from the first spawn... Maybe? Does anyone know if small Tatia are cannibalistic on smaller fry?

Cheers,
Eric

[bekateen]

No more spawns yet, to my knowledge, but today during a water change I stirred up three large (approx 1.5-2cm) fry swimming in the parent's tank. These are large enough that I suspect they are left from the first spawn in November. I also saw four smaller fry, about 1cm, which are from the last spawn.

We've had a week of big rains and there's more scheduled for the next three days. Other fish have been spawning in the last week (Amblydoras (3 spawns in 7-8 days), Rineloricaria lanceolata, L397, L201, Ancistrus Wabenmuster and Rio Ucayali). Let's see if any of the Tatia or Microglanis or Microsynodontis or Akysis will have another go at it.

Cheers, Eric

[bekateen]

Minor setback today. I was moving the 3D-printed fry tray with about 50+ fry in it to release the fry into a 10 gal tank. As I moved the tray, the tray tipped and nearly all the fry (except about a dozen fry) spilled into the parents' tank. Hopefully the parents don't eat them. After finding several healthy older fry in the tank recently, I'm encouraged the fry won't get eaten.

Oh well.

Cheers, Eric

[bekateen]

Finally I found a fresh spawn of Tatia intermedia eggs before they hatched in the tank! What an nice after-Valentine's Day surprise!

The egg mass is so thick, I can't even begin to estimate the number of eggs.

Cheers, Eric

[edds]

It almost looks like freshly laid frogspawn!

[bekateen]

Exactly. Apparently that's a thing with Tatia intermedia. See here: This is from the CLOG page


Cheers, Eric

[bekateen]

Initial estimate of eggs, counting only the most superficial layers of eggs in the two big egg masses, is 903 eggs! Certainly there's over 100 uncounted eggs remaining deep in the two parts of the main egg mass.

Cheers, Eric

[bekateen]

Here's a better look at the eggs and their development 24 hours after collection:

Cheers,
Eric

Tatia cf. intermedia: Massive spawn

[edds]

Fingers crossed you get a good hatching and survival rate.

[bekateen]

Thanks!

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Initial estimate of eggs, counting only the most superficial layers of eggs in the two big egg masses, is 903 eggs! Certainly there's over 100 uncounted eggs remaining deep in the two parts of the main egg mass.

Do you think there is anything special about this tank? It is obviously working.

cheers Darrel

[bekateen]

Do you think there is anything special about this tank? It is obviously working.
cheers Darrel

Hi Darrel,

Good question. I'd like to think so, but it may be wishful thinking.

This of course is my 4-foot-long aquarium with the waterfall at one end, almost laminar flow (okay, let's just say unidirectional flow) across the length of the tank into a Matten filter at the other end, and the (semi)-floating kinon/raft of plants, Manzanita twigs, and dead oak leaves at Matten end (described HERE: New 33 gallon long (4 foot) tank with waterfall and kinon).

I'm using pure RODI water with all the botanicals which raise the TDS/conductivity (TDS ~ 60 parts per million, ppm), pH somewhere between 3.4-4.0 (there's so little buffering, the pH meter is not stable), and temperature 25C. Before a water change, TDS drifts up to about 70-100ppm; when I do water changes, I remove about 70% of the water and refill with pure RODI water, dropping the TDS down to about 30ppm.

If the waterfall and unidirectional flow doesn't make a difference, I think the dense mat of vine plants, plant roots, and coconut husk fibers does. About the spawning mops, originally I had only one and it was located under the waterfall. I thought it might attract spawning. But when babies started burrowing into the Matten filter and I found some babies hiding in the spawning mop, I moved the mop and added two more mops to cover the Matten surface, in an attempt to get fry to choose the mops for hiding instead of choosing the Matten to burrow into. I didn't expect the spawn to be where I found it. The spawn wasn't IN the mop, it was wedged IN BETWEEN the mop and the Matten.

I'm giddy with joy over finding this giant Tatia spawn. But darn it, I still can't seem to get a second Microglanis spawn in here. Or, if they have spawned again, seemingly all the Microglanis fry are burrowing into the Matten and disappearing (FWIW, Microglanis fry are TINY compared to Tatia fry). Either that, or the Microglanis fry are getting eaten. I may never know.

I just got a much finer Matten filter from SwissTropicals - 45ppi (pores per inch) instead of (I think) 10ppi or 20ppi in my current Matten. I know this new Matten will clog more easily, but it should also block fry from burrowing into it so far.

Cheers,
Eric

[bekateen]

I just got a much finer Matten filter from SwissTropicals - 45ppi (pores per inch) instead of (I think) 10ppi or 20ppi in my current Matten. I know this new Matten will clog more easily, but it should also block fry from burrowing into it so far.

Cheers, Eric

To be clear, even the 45ppi (pores per inch) won't stop tiny Microglanis fry from burrowing into the foam, but it may stop the Tatia fry.

Cheers, Eric

[dw1305]

Hi all,
Hi all,

...... This of course is my 4-foot-long aquarium with the waterfall at one end, almost laminar flow (okay, let's just say unidirectional flow) across the length of the tank into a Matten filter at the other end, and the (semi)-floating kinon/raft of plants, Manzanita twigs, and dead oak leaves at Matten end (described HERE: New 33 gallon long (4 foot) tank with waterfall and kinon).

I'm using pure RODI water with all the botanicals which raise the TDS/conductivity (TDS ~ 60 parts per million, ppm), pH somewhere between 3.4-4.0 (there's so little buffering, the pH meter is not stable), and temperature 25C. Before a water change, TDS drifts up to about 70-100ppm; when I do water changes, I remove about 70% of the water and refill with pure RODI water, dropping the TDS down to about 30ppm.

If the waterfall and unidirectional flow doesn't make a difference, I think the dense mat of vine plants, plant roots, and coconut husk fibers does............

That makes sense, I suppose we are probably in "unique tank" territory, unless some-one tries to replicate it? It could be any, or all, of the features, but they should combine to give you very high water quality.

Because pH is difficult to measure as you approach pure water using conductivity makes sense. I'm a fan of conductivity meters, they may not measure the parameter you are really interested in, but conductivity is a linear reading and at ~ 30 ppm TDS (50 microS) you don't have many ions of any description.

cheers Darrel

[bekateen]

Hi all,
Because pH is difficult to measure as you approach pure water using conductivity makes sense. I'm a fan of conductivity meters, they may not measure the parameter you are really interested in, but conductivity is a linear reading and at ~ 30 ppm TDS (50 microS) you don't have many ions of any description.

cheers Darrel

That's correct. I use the Hanna 98129 conductivity/ppm/pH/temp meter, from this old thread: Is there a digital TDS meter you would recommend?


FWIW, this Hanna model in its default factory settings (which is what I use) calculates TDS as 1/2 conductivity. So if my TDS is 30ppm, the conductivity is 60ppm. If I wanted, I could change the instrument to calculate TDS as 2/3 conductivity, but as you say it's just a math equation and if I understand the logic of choosing the 1/2 ratio vs. 2/3 ratio, it should be based on the specific solutes I have... but since I don't know my solutes, I leave the conversion at its factory setting of 1/2.

Cheers, Eric

[dw1305]

Hi all,

FWIW, this Hanna model in its default factory settings (which is what I use) calculates TDS as 1/2 conductivity. So if my TDS is 30ppm, the conductivity is 60ppm. If I wanted, I could change the instrument to calculate TDS as 2/3 conductivity, but as you say it's just a math equation and if I understand the logic of choosing the 1/2 ratio vs. 2/3 ratio, it should be based on the specific solutes I have... but since I don't know my solutes, I leave the conversion at its factory setting of 1/2.

The 1/2 conversion factor is if you mainly have monovalent ions, like sodium (Na+) and chlorine (Cl-), in your water. If you have ions with higher valency, like calcium (Ca++) you should use the 2/3 factor, just because they are better conductors of electricity. Personally? I just use the conductivity measurement.

Cheers Darrel

[bekateen]

The 1/2 conversion factor is if you mainly have monovalent ions, like sodium (Na+) and chlorine (Cl-), in your water. If you have ions with higher valency, like calcium (Ca++) you should use the 2/3 factor, just because they are better conductors of electricity. Personally? I just use the conductivity measurement.

Cheers Darrel

Thanks for this information, Darrel. Either I never knew that, or if I did, I've forgotten it, so it's nice to have this in front of my face again.

Since I'm starting with RO and the solutes would mainly be a mix minerals and organics leaching from dead plant matter, combined with ions from uneaten food and fish urine/feces, I'm not really sure which would be more abundant in my water - monovalent or divalent ions.

Indeed, conductivity is the real thing being measured by my instrument, so that would be the simplest and most accurate measure. I tend to report TDS though because in my experience, many of the hobbyists I encounter don't understand conductivity but they do... or at least they think they do... understand TDS.

Plus, at the very low Eq/TDS values I'm getting in my tanks, there isn't a big difference between the 1/3 and 1/2 conversion factors.

Cheers, Eric