How should I treat this issue? - L333 Tiger King Pleco

[PL3Co]

Hi all. I just got this L333 Tiger King Pleco recently and it looked fine but spent most of its time hiding in the plants and wood I have in my tank so didn't notice any issue with it.

Today when I happened to see it swimming in the front, I noticed its tail looking a bit odd so I quickly pulled it out and put it into a quarantine tank.

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I would like to know what disease/issue this pleco has and how should I go about treating it.

I'm thinking:
PraziPro (For flukes), Ich X (for ich) and KanaPlex (for bacterial infection) but this might be a bit too extreme? Perhaps I should go with salt? If so, how many grams per liter would you suggest?

Additional information:
This is a juvenile measuring around 3-5cm. Nothing else in the tank appears to have any sickness. Water parameters seem fine (no ammonia, Nitrate around 20ppm) & Temperature is at 28 degrees celcius (82.4 Fahrenheit). Tank mates include Discus, rummynose tetras, threadfin rainbow fish, various corydoras, hillstream loaches, and rasboras. There are no aggressive fish in this tank or any fish that appear to pick on each other (except for Discus being Discus but they are always among themselves and don't bother anything else). This tank is also planted with a lot of driftwood and hiding spots (pretty much where it always has been since I got it. It rarely ever comes out from the wood/java fern bush)

pH - 6-6.5 (fluctuation due to CO2)
Ammonia, Nitrate, Nitrite, levels - 0/20ppm/0
Water change frequency - Weekly or Twice per week (This fish has only been with me for 1 week)
Substrate - JBL Manado Sand
Furnishings - All natural spiderwood, rocks & plants
How long has it been set-up? - 3 years
When was the last new fish added? - This was the last fish added. Prior to this, the last fish added was months ago.
Foods used and frequency? - Spirulina tablets (Hikari Algae Wafer) + the Discus food which is Marine shrimp, fish fillets, spirulina, garlic and extracts of plants (spinach).

[naturalart]

Thats a pretty good bite or injury. Do you have other plecos in the tank? And they can get their tails caught in 'stuff' and freak out in order to get free of the impedance.

Personally, although its a pretty deep break, i would just observe an see if it will grow back. A healthy pleco can generally regrow this type of injury.

[Jools]

It does look like an injury as opposed to an infection. What other fish are in the tank?

Cheers,

Jools

[PL3Co]

Thats a pretty good bite or injury. Do you have other plecos in the tank? And they can get their tails caught in 'stuff' and freak out in order to get free of the impedance.

Personally, although its a pretty deep break, i would just observe an see if it will grow back. A healthy pleco can generally regrow this type of injury.

Yes, there is another L333 (The tail is fine on this one), the same size as this one, as well as various other bottom feeders like Cory's (Golden Lazer, Juli, Sterbai, Peppered), Garra Rufa, and clown loaches. I haven't seen any of them that appear or behave aggressively in the tank.

Unfortunately, this one's tail got a bit worse but the fish is still active.


I have it isolated in quarantine at the moment, and I'm treating it with KannaPlex with water changes every 2 days. I've also added a log/wood in there, but I noticed this pleco doesn't eat. It's active and swims around the quarantine, but I haven't seen it eating. If I add a piece of spirulina tablets, it'll remain as is. I tried zucchini as well to see, but no luck. I'm not sure if they live off eating the wood or if it's starving itself out. I'm just hoping its tail will grow back.

Is there anything else I could do to prevent this from getting worse? The fins are all fine; it's only the tail that appears to be damaged.

[PL3Co]

It does look like an injury as opposed to an infection. What other fish are in the tank?

Cheers,

Jools

There is another L333, same size as this one (tail is fine). There are also various Cory's, clown loaches, Garra Rufa, Otocinclus, Cherry Barbs, Harlequin Rasboras, Espei Rasboras, Discus, threadfin rainbows, neon tetras, green neon tetras and a hillstream loach. The tank is also planted. These L333's you only see them by mistake It took me about 4-6 days to spot this 2nd one. They hide in the plants and pretty much no fish can go where they normally hangout. I would think if any fish were to attack this one, it would be the other L333, as these 2 generally stay near each other and I have never seen them out in the open where a cory or any other fish would be able to interfere with them. Since the day I put them in, I have actually never seen them out in the open until this one had that tail injury and came out to the front of the tank.

[naturalart]

Possibly, the other L333 may have matured a bit and decided to become dominant. Which would then mean you'll need to create more hidey holes in that tank, or another tank, for the subdominant (injured) fish.

Only other possibility is some type of fin rot. That would speak to water quality (Low waterchanges, poor filtration). But I would wait and see if it will grow back while in quarantine. My 2¢

[PL3Co]

Possibly, the other L333 may have matured a bit and decided to become dominant. Which would then mean you'll need to create more hidey holes in that tank, or another tank, for the subdominant (injured) fish.

Only other possibility is some type of fin rot. That would speak to water quality (Low waterchanges, poor filtration). But I would wait and see if it will grow back while in quarantine. My 2¢

Thanks, I will wait for it to heal fully before putting it back into the tank. Is there any medications I should use or should I just leave it to heal itself?

[Shane]

Clean water, good food, and time to heal. Do not medicate unless you have a very clear diagnosis and know what (and how) to treat that specific ailment.

Many catfishes are very sensitive to medications so the "cure" can often do more harm than good. Many of us have learned that through direct experience.

-Shane

[Jools]

Now it looks like an infection. I think I can see swelling in the caudal peduncle. Kanaplex is not a bad shout if you think it's fin rot. I can't see the tell tale red signs of a bacterial infection.

You don't want it to be active, you want it to be breathing slowy and hiding. Active during the day is not a good sign.

I'd try less veggie foods and more protein but becuase it's moved it will be off food for a day or three.

Jools

[PL3Co]

Now it looks like an infection. I think I can see swelling in the caudal peduncle. Kanaplex is not a bad shout if you think it's fin rot. I can't see the tell tale red signs of a bacterial infection.

You don't want it to be active, you want it to be breathing slowy and hiding. Active during the day is not a good sign.

I'd try less veggie foods and more protein but becuase it's moved it will be off food for a day or three.

Jools

I have covered the quarantine tank so that it's night-out and can recover in peace. I might have overstated its activity level. By active I mean it moves around from 1 spot to another and isn't staying in 1 spot throughout the day. Every few hours I will see it moved from where it was to a new spot. It isn't active in the sense that its swimming around the tank or restless.

The image is zoomed in, so the clarity isn't great, but there is a very light tinge of pink rather than red near the tail. I will try offering it a more protein-based food like Tetra TabiMin or one of the Hikari bottom feeder pellets, which I will get today. I also have with me frozen Artemia, which I keep for Discus, but I'm not sure if Plecos eat that.

However, I should mention that I have not seen this fish eat. I'm not sure if it feeds off the wood but it doesn't seem like it eats the spirulina tablets. In this quarantine tank if I add a spirulina tab, it'll be there untouched even 6hrs later.

I was thinking KannaPlex might be effective in order to prevent the progression of the bacterial infection. Some folks also suggested I use Aquarium Salt but I'm not sure about that.

[PL3Co]

Clean water, good food, and time to heal. Do not medicate unless you have a very clear diagnosis and know what (and how) to treat that specific ailment.

Many catfishes are very sensitive to medications so the "cure" can often do more harm than good. Many of us have learned that through direct experience.

-Shane

That makes sense. We often try to look for quick fixes and overnight cures. Sadly, that's not the case. For now I am ensuring the water quality remains pristine and stable. Its only 1 fish in here so I change water every 48hrs. As for food, I'm not sure what this fish eats. I tried Spirulina wafers/sticks but it remains uneaten. I do have a piece of Cholla wood in there which is the dried husk of the Cholla Cactus, commonly used in shrimp tanks so I'm not sure if its been eating this wood.

I have also tried with Zucchini but it doesn't seem to be interested in that either.

I am starting to think this might be an infection. On day 1 it did look like a 'bite' but now there's almost no tail left.

[characinkid]

Sounds like the water is good, just need it to eat! Should you be trying something more meaty in the diet? Maybe some frozen bloodworms, brineshrimp etc?

[Geophagus72]

Hi.
L333 requires a high-protein diet. While young L333 may eat some vegetables, their diet should shift to meaty foods as they grow. They need bloodworms, chopped mussels, chopped cockles, or prawns. They don’t eat algae and won’t touch algae wafers.

[Kirin]

Hi.
L333 requires a high-protein diet. While young L333 may eat some vegetables, their diet should shift to meaty foods as they grow. They need bloodworms, chopped mussels, chopped cockles, or prawns. They don’t eat algae and won’t touch algae wafers.

Just weighing in on Hypancistrus diets as the argument is used but diet detracts from the entire issue.
There is no evidence they are carnivorous. Omnivorous is an awful term, it's so broad so much so you could say all animals are omnivorous just because at one point they consume something else. I'm not the fan of specific labels either but they give an idea. As Hypancistrus sp. L333 and L066 are not described there lacks any studies into their ecology, there is little need to either as they are not a model taxa opposed to just Ancistrus sp. but as a genus as whole they are useful.
First I must clear the protein bias, people are seeing protein as just protein and not the source of proteins. There is literally no evidence for these fishes needing high or low protein long term, given there is a short reproductive lifespan under common diets particularly where protein is the only focus it says a lot.
So we have information on what Hypancistrus feed on in the wild. The majority are what many would say omnivores but this shows how vague omnivory is. They largely feed on algaes, detritus (a vague term but avoid adding personal bias to the term) and a small negotiable amount of invertebrates. The detritus given none can be tracked to invertebrates of course soft bodied inverts are a possibility but are likely bacteria and protozoa. One thing that is noted is seeds. Hypancistrus like the Peckoltia group in general have reasonably strong jaws but lack the dentary to feed on a carnivorous diet like Scobinancistrus (makes a good comparison). It's more then likely they are feeding in areas tough to feed on, leading onto the great wood excavating adaptations of that clade in Panaqolus. We see that in H. zebra who feeds on bryozoa, but it's not clear if they digest them.
References
Armbruster, J. W. (2002). Hypancistrus inspector: a new species of suckermouth armored catfish (Loricariidae: Ancistrinae). Copeia, 2002(1), 86-92.
Armbruster, J. W., Lujan, N. K., & Taphorn, D. C. (2007). Four new Hypancistrus (Siluriformes: Loricariidae) from Amazonas, Venezuela. Copeia, 2007(1), 62-79.

The reason they might not touch algae wafers might be because many don't contain algae but algae is paraphyletic and they would likely specialist in specific taxa of what they feed on. One interesting thing is when fed a true carnivorous diet (many are high in cereals and vegetables) they are very prone to bloat.
Mussels are high in thiaminase and prawns can be too, the risk of heavy metals is also higher.

The other aspect is vegetables, I would count out vegetables for most Loricariids other then bulking out a diet, almost a filler excluding mushrooms. You'll note how much waste is produced from courgette and cucumber in most species because even algivores it's difficult to digest. Vegetables are so different from algae's who are high in protein. We can't replicate the bacteria sadly but the algae's maybe can get close, remotely.
None of those dry feeds are carnivorous or herbivorous, they are not invertivore diets or algivore diets. Too high in fish meal and cereals. We know even for insectivores that fish meal has issues obtaining nutrition (I can grab the reference for that). The problem is getting fishes to feed on general commercial feeds and Loricariids fall foul of most of these diets.