Attempting the impossible with S. Angelicus

[Ltygress]

Synodontis Angelicus. Yep. I plan to try breeding them. Yes, I know that probably involves hormones. I don't even have them yet - my supplier got some pure ones in (non-hybrid) and they're offering them up, although for a really high price.

Now a few years ago I found out about Ovaprim and did a test with it adding it to the water column with some L397's I had. Not only did they breed within a couple of days after I did that, THEY KEPT BREEDING. I have never added more Ovaprim to them or the water column, but I get fry popping out of caves almost every week now. The plecos were a good 4-5 years old by the time I added the Ovaprim, so they should have been breeding by then. Ovaprim was one of my last options, but I didn't want to inject it, so I tried the water column first. Apparently it worked.

I'm hoping I can get the same results with S. Angelicus. Or maybe I can get a group of Angelicus to breed with injected hormones and then the offspring will be comfortable breeding in captivity on their own. I do hate injecting the fish, but sometimes it just has to be done (I have a paper from the University of Florida showing how bacterial medications added to the water column are not nearly as effective as food-based or injection-based medications - and if a fish isn't eating, that only leaves injection as an option).

I own a lot of "rare" fish that don't seem to have good captive breeding records - Alestopetersius Brichardi, Microctenopoma Ansorgii, Tetraodon Schoudeteni*, S. Flavitaeniatus, just off the top of my head. I would like to add S. Angelicus to this mix too.

But I need to know EVERYTHING about simply owning these guys before attempting to breed them. I have read that they don't get along with each other. I have read that they don't get along with other fish either. I have read that they get along with other fish, except other Synodontis species. I have read that they are fine for "community" tanks with fish of roughly the same size. So much information out there, and it's so hard to tell what is true and what isn't. So I figured I would come to the experts (the people that still use these forums).

Who here has owned S. Angelicus before? Did they have trouble getting along with each other? With other fish? With other synodontis? Did they all seem to get along just fine? How big was the tank you had them in? Do you think that contributed to their (in)ability to get along?

I really want to populate this hobby with them more than anything. But I would *LOVE* to get them breeding on their own in captivity too. I have an empty 300G tank right now that I could put a group of them in, or 35+ other tanks to split them up if needed. If they don't get along with each other very much I may have to keep them separate until full grown and have them vet-tested for gender. After that I can "test" pairs here and there to see what works, and if I'll need to use the spawning hormone.

So dump all of the direct personal experience that you have about these catfish, right here. I'm ready to absorb!

[Jools]

Did you read up on Eric and Oliver's syno spawning experiences? The former is in Shane's World, and the latter in the forum. I've not kept this species for 30 years, but only one individual.

Cheers,

Jools

[Ltygress]

No, I haven't, but thanks for giving direct references. I will look up their names now!

[Viktor Jarikov]

We had a single adult angelicus with great many other fish in a 120 gal, including about a dozen or more of other syno species without obvious problems: https://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/vie ... hp?t=30939

[Ltygress]

I am so mad tonight. The order arrived via Southwest Airlines this morning at 9:30. But Ye Olde Vice President was visiting the area, so ALL cargo was "held in place" until about 6pm. So I had to wait about 10 hours until I could pick them up. They were all alive, but I waited a long time to find out..... they did NOT send pure Angelicus like they had advertised. They sent Angelicus/Eupterus hybrids. But I PAID for pure Angelicus so I just lost a lot of money. It's a wholesaler, so they'll either credit me or send the correct ones out, but something tells me they might not have anymore pure Angelicus. And I'll have to pay shipping again, because that's how fish wholesalers work.

Sometimes being a fish retailer REALLY bites.

[bekateen]

Sorry, that really sucks! I hope you get properly compensated with the right fish.

Good luck,
Eric

[Ltygress]

At first the sales person said he was frustrated because "if they ran out..." they should have contacted him instead of just grabbing from another row. But it sounds like they did NOT run out. The packing team just grabbed the wrong fish altogether. I'm guessing someone ignored the "location" of the fish (which is right there on the sticker they put on the bag) and just grabbed something with the name "Angelicus" instead.

But they are sending me an overnight UPS shipment with the correct fish. I'm not sure if I'm still getting all 6 that I ordered, but better than not getting them at all and being stuck with a "credit" for use on something else. In the meantime, they aren't asking for the hybrids to be returned. So anyone want to buy some of those for $5?

[Ltygress]

Bek, how accurate is your wish list in your signature? Still looking for C. Pantanalensis?

[bekateen]

Bek, how accurate is your wish list in your signature? Still looking for C. Pantanalensis?

That's a great question. I am interested in keeping C. pantanalensis, but not right now. Because of my cory venom research, I'm currently working almost exclusively in my tanks with C. sterbai, although I'm keeping a variety of other species. For now, I'm having so much fun breeding weird stuff (like Amblydoras, Tatia, Auchenipterichthys and Microglanis... and now working with

Pseudomystus heokhuii

) that I'm not getting more corys at them moment.

Otherwise, my list is still basically acccurate, but not immediate.

Thanks for asking,
Eric

[Ltygress]

Okay, back to the subject. The wholesaler sent the correct fish and all six that I ordered. They have more left too, in case anyone else is looking. They are only 2" so they'll have plenty of growing to do before they can breed. Although now I have hybrids taking up the tank I intended to put them in, so yeah I'm selling those cheap.

In the meantime, I did take a photo of one of the pure ones today! It's the ONLY one I could get a photo of while the lights were on, because the rest are hiding in driftwood and ceramic caves. The hybrids are in with a sponge filter and they're all clinging to the channels on the side of the sponge, but I don't care about getting a photo of them.

So I'm just happy to have my angelicus now!

[OregonOutdoorsChris]

I'd be curious to hear more about your experiment with Ovaprim in the water column. What was the dosing you used?

[Ltygress]

What was the dosing you used?

Late, I know. I don't seem to get the notifications from here anymore. I'll have to look into it.

Anyway, I used the dosage of about 1 "unit" on an insulin syringe per gallon of water. A "unit" on a diabetic syringe is the same as 1/100th of a mL/cc or 10 microliters (µL). I have 2 glass microliter syringes (sterilized by boiling water after every use), but have tons of diabetic syringes more readily available after my mom passed away back in 2016.

While it may take slightly more to get more immediate results, I did get success recently using this same method with cauliflower sabertails (the swordtail livebearers with thicker "swords"). But I am going to look in to other products from Syndel for those fish because apparently these fish only give birth to 2-3 fry at a time! Syndel supposedly has other products that can help them carry more eggs and fry during each pregnancy.

[aquaholic]

You wont be able to induce by adding Ovaprim to the water column. A large portion is due to the dopamine inhibition aspects, not just the supply of gonadotropin (sGnRHa). Additionally Ovaprim breaks down rapidly in water and the dosage rates are important - too little or too much wont work.

You may want to start by inducing decorus or eupterus species initially as milt is easier to hand strip. They all have cork screw shaped testes. Some hatcheries surgically remove half a teste for harvest as the fish can recover and the teste regrows.

You can cheat somewhat by injecting some of the spawning group. With time, you will work out which individual fish are more reactive than others, however those reactive fish can "naturally" trigger others in the group even if those aren't induced. This takes time and repeated attempts for the group to become conditioned however.

Keeping and raising angelicus is not more difficult than any other synodontis. They mostly hide 23 hours per day and appreciate lots of PVC pipe caves.

And it goes without saying that the breeding aspect is the easiest step, with hatching and first feeds in numbers very difficult.