Help with selecting group of L236 SW RB line

[catfishmelao]

Hello, I am new here and I have been given the opportunity to select a group of 10 Plecos L236 Super White RB line between 3 - 3.5 inches...
I have some questions for the group:
1- What female-male ratio should I get from a group of 10 for breeding purposes? Should I go for more females than males or vice versa ?
2- Some of the L236 showed to me has a light yellow on it, the others does not have any yellow only white (black stripes of course) - What is your recommendation to pick between both of them? I am tempted to go with the only white, but I have been told that the L236 change coloration...
Any help you provide is high appreciated.
Thanks a lot!

[bekateen]

Hi catfishmelao,

Welcome to PlanetCatfish!

As far as your questions,

• I've never kept L236, but I've kept and bred a few different Hypancistrus. My advise on sex ratio of Hypans is go for about 1:1. You're probably spending a lot of money on these, so you want to know that your chances of getting at least one mating pair is good. Even if you can sex them at the time of purchase, you can't guarantee that they'll get along, so the more "options" of mates, the better, and that cuts both directions (males liking the females and females liking the males).
• As far as the yellow vs. white and that they change color, that's something I don't know. But in terms of color preference, I've seen lots of people say they want the "yellow" form and lots of people want the "white". That, it would seem, is a personal preference. Myself, I've always thought the white looked better given that their name is L236 "super white" (not "super yellow"). But that's just my two cents.

Whatever you go with, good luck and please share pics when you get them settled in your tank!

Cheers, Eric

[catfishmelao]

Thank you Eric. I really appreciate your feedback. Indeed it is a lot of money, but I have been waiting for this moment for long time, so I am ready now. My understanding was that I should get more males than females because males compete between them and females get interested in the best male, but I will follow your advice and get a ratio of 1:1
Some persons have been telling me that the white color in L236 SW can degrade when they become adults, not sure if it is true or no, but I will go for the L236 with more white coverage... Hopefully they do not lose it too much.
All the information I can get the better because this group is filled with a lot of experienced persons in this matter... like yourself.

Thanks so much.

[bekateen]

My understanding was that I should get more males than females because males compete between them and females get interested in the best male, but I will follow your advice and get a ratio of 1:1

Hi catfishmelao,

You're welcome. As far as advice, I think mine's okay, but there are many people here more knowledgeable than I.

As far as the idea of getting more males than females, keep in mind that unless you're 100% of sexes at the time of purchase, an effort to buy 5M:5F could easily slip to 6 of one and 4 of the other if even one fish is sexed incorrectly; that said, I see nothing wrong with intentionally getting 6M and 4F if you're super confident of the sexes. Anything more skewed than that doesn't make sense... For example, if you intentionally buy 7M and 3F, that gives you very little room for error if one or two females die or never get around to breeding or if one female turns out to be a male. In my opinion, your much better off shooting for a 5:5 ratio and being okay if you're off by one.

Again I can't speak to the color thing, so get what you like best.

Cheers, Eric

[catfishmelao]

Thank you Eric, I have some pictures but I do not how to upload them yet... Is there any link I can reference on how to upload pictures to this post?

Best,

[bekateen]

Thank you Eric, I have some pictures but I do not how to upload them yet... Is there any link I can reference on how to upload pictures to this post?

Best,

Here: https://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/vie ... 03#p305103

[catfishmelao]

Thanks Eric. These are the supposed L236 SW RB line females

[catfishmelao]

These are the supposed L236 SW RB line males

[catfishmelao]

Can I please have any feedback regarding color, sex and in general about these 236 SW RB line ?
I can get back to the seller to change them if these are not really what they are supposed to be.
Any help on this will be also much appreciated.

Thanks a lot.

[bekateen]

Based on pectoral odontodes, I'd agree on seeing. No opinion on colors.

Cheers, Eric

[catfishmelao]

Here are some pics now that they're in a tank and less stressed.

[bekateen]

They look real nice! Congratulations!

Cheers, Eric

[catfishmelao]

Thank you Eric, These plecos parents are from Ernst Schmidt who received broodstock from his close friend and collaborator Robert Budrovcan, the originator of the RB line. The parents of the fish for sale were obtained directly from Ernst. Maybe some sellers will say that to sell more but I have very good recommendations about the seller who gave these to me, I understand that at the end it is a trust thing because it is very difficult to verify.

[emanuel]

catfishmelao, Maybe I'm a little late, because I see you've already purchased the fish...
I have recently started with L236 and I am having the first reproductions in this period (you can find my topic below), so take what I tell you only as an opinion.
I prefer to have a ratio of 5 males to 3 females and unfortunately I discovered the reason the hard way. In a female raised and fed well, the eggs in her belly will certainly grow, without a doubt, while having a good male capable of reproducing can be more difficult. A male must be strong enough to trap the female in the cave and make her give birth, males are not always skilled enough at this. If a male has just bred, perhaps spending a week (or more) defending his eggs, he will need weeks to recover. If at that moment there is a female full of eggs and no other male able to mate with her, the female will suffocate to death. This is what happened to me, the largest male in the tank has recently mated, but another very large female has been ready for weeks, no other male is big and strong enough to mate with her. The female died suffocated by her eggs a few days ago.
To avoid this happening again, I am looking for at least one other large and strong male, because I have 5 males who are still too small to mate with a large female.

In short, it is better to have some escort males, ready to mate when no one else is able to do so, this can save your female's life. Since they are very expensive fish, it is better to do everything to avoid losing one in a stupid way like what happened to me.
I'm not noticing any contraindications to having a high number of males, I'm providing enough caves and I've never witnessed particularly violent fights.

A male can always have a reason for not mating, he doesn't feel fit, he has recently reproduced with another female... so having someone to replace him is important.

As for the color, I like both, both yellow and white, I really couldn't choose... in fact I have a mixed group, yellow and white.

[catfishmelao]

Hi Emanuel - A good advise based on experience is never late. Thanks for the detailed feedback based on your personal experience. I have learned something new today. Thanks a lot for sharing your experience.
I already bought the 10 L236 SW RB line 1:1 female-male ratio but I can definitely look for another male or two. I have not selected more males because they are a bit yellowish and I want to get one with the more white coverage possible.

Here is a female (white) and a male(yellow, that I have rejected). It is a personal thing but I do prefer the white ones instead of the yellow ones.

[emanuel]

catfishmelao, You have chosen some truly beautiful specimens, my compliments!

It's not clear from the photo, but are all your males bigger than the females?

[catfishmelao]

Thank you Emanuel - Yes all the males are bigger than the females.... Not because I asked for that, just because the seller has all females smaller than the males. Just causality I believe.

[emanuel]

this is definitely a good thing, it reduces the risk I described in previous messages a bit. Keep us updated on how your L236 group progresses.

[TwoTankAmin]

Sorry I am late to this thread. I would have looked to have a 2-1 m-f ratio. My understsanding that it takes a female about 2 weeks to produce eggs while the male will need about a month from spawning to the time her boots free swimming fry.

When working with my Hypancistrus I have always used the group option. In groups both the males and the females will form pecking orders. The top females spawn with the top males. In my original group of zebras there were 13 fish. On;e the top two males spawned. Over 4 years I did have one instance where a3rd male went as well, So I had one dad on eggs, another on wigglers and the thrid almost ready to boot his kid.

There problem with the triple spawn was that when it occurred I had a buyer flying into NY from Kansas City to buy 20 fish. I needed to break down the breeder tanks to catch those fish. I was careful to move each of the 3 caves to hang on traps. To catch the fish required I empty the tank of all decor. Everything went well and when I put the tanks back together I returned the caves with dads and offspring to pretty much the same places free where they had been. All appeared fine, but the following day both the eggs and wigglers were gone.

I do groups for a few reasons. The first is I prefer to let my plecos choose both their cave location and their female. The female. In my grop pf 13 I knew which males spawned but not which specific females were involved. What I do know is that nature is smart. The goal if to end up with srong offspring which means the "best" males and the "best" females for this should end up together.

With pairs one is taking this selection process away from the fish and trying to make this judgement one their own. Moreover it reduces how often one can get a new spawn. With a reverse trio one might get a spawn every couple of weeks. Finally, I believe one has a chance for better genetic diversity working with groups as opposed to piars or even a reverse trio.

Finally, as we all know fish sometimes die before it is from old age. With a group there should be a lower level male or female ready to fill the void a death creates.

However, there is also a potential downside to groups. All of the fish want to spawn but they do not in a group setting. So the males will fight for dominance. It has happened that a superior male will trap a lower ranked rival in a cave and will end up killing it. This is not typical but it can happen.

The lower ranked females will also try to improve their chances of spawning despite the superior gals preventing it. The lesser female will look for an opportunity if the dad leaves the cave to try and grab a quick shot for food. if she gets lucky she can enter the cave and eat eggs or even wigglers. When this happens the male is no long an active dad and is prepared to spawn again. However, the superior ranked female may not had time to produce another clutch of eggs.

I have never had a male kill another as far as I know. However, I have seen a male fight off several females who tried to enter his cave when he was on a spawn. He would have none of it. Another thing I have been told by other breeders but never seen in my tanks is a second female spawning with a male who has just had another female deposit eggs.

Now re the yellow variant. I have seen it and am aware that some folks have line bred for it so you can buy super yellows. I have no interest in this. I have seen yellow in some of my 236s but I do not breed for it and do not see it very often.

I have a gorup of super white 236 I purchased as being from the RB line. They are quite lovely and spawn like crazy as did my RB 236 regilars before I sold them. I do npot believe that 236 will even be a described species. I believe they are a natural hybred. I believe this for two reasons. The first is the great degree of variation in their patterning. The second reson is their eye coloration. All of my zebras have always had dark eyes, All of my 173s have golden eyes. But my 236 have shown both colors. More of them tend to have golden eyes but I also see some number with darker eyes like zebras.

Finally, zebras take 2-3 years to start spawning. 173 are more like 4-5. Both of these need to be closer to their adult size for this. However, 236 and SW 236 spawn sooner and much smaller relative to their adults size. I find the 236 to be more prolific than the other two as well.

[catfishmelao]

Thank you TowTankAmin for the detailed information. I have read the majority of your posts and believe me there is always something new to learn from you. You are an asset to this and other groups. I do not like the L236 yellow variant but that is just my personal point of view, I know there are some beautiful and magnificient L236 with yellow color, but they are not for me.
I will take your sugestion about having more males in a ratio 2:1, also Emanuel's input as well on this matter of having more males than females and I will try to add a couple of more L236 SW RB line 3"-4" to the group. Right now I have 10 so I will increase the group up to 12 with a couple of more male.

I appreciate all the knowledge and experience you transmit.
Best

[emanuel]

DueTankAmin, Fantastic intervention, thank you very much!

Sorry I am late to this thread. I would have looked to have a 2-1 m-f ratio. My understsanding that it takes a female about 2 weeks to produce eggs while the male will need about a month from spawning to the time her boots free swimming fry.

That's right, I forgot to write this. Among other things, it just happened to me this morning, the female who had a spawin on September 19th, this morning had a new one, but with another male of lower rank, because the dominant one was not yet ready to reproduce again.. .

[catfishmelao]

Just received the L236 SW RB line today and I want to post this picture before they go to through the acclimatization process and then to the tank. I am very happy and excited. The picture is not good because I am not a photographer but at least is something.

[emanuel]

WOW! You really have a super group, all the specimens are very beautiful

[catfishmelao]

Thank you Emanuel. I hope in the future, with a lot of work, dedication and luck, breed them.